[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by GMAN

It is indeed unfortunate that your daughter never knew her grandparents. From your previous posts it sounds like she and your parents missed a lot by not being in contact over these past years. As we get a little older I think that we all want to know more about where we came from and something about our ancestry. Somehow it becomes more of a priority.

My family, from my parents down... is very small. I have one brother and one sister. My brother has only ONE child, from a previous marriage, but my parents have had access to that daughter over the years. She now has a daughter of her own and my parents are thrilled about their first "known" great grandchild. My sister had two kids, but they are both too young to have children of their own... yet.

When I first announced to them that I was going to get married, I told them that they already HAD a grandchild (Denise) before the one that they got to know and love. They DID have a few months of getting to know my daughter. My sister has two kids, and someday THEY will have children that will add to the "great grandchild" pleasure of my parents.

I can't say that my daughter didn't grow up knowing her grandparents. When my EX re-married, she got a NEW set of grandparents which she grew up with. My EX's parents are now dead, but.... I'm sure she got to know them before they died. So... she HAD two sets of grandparents without MY parents being involved.

My daughter now has kids. It might not be fair to THEM to ask them to understand that they have ANOTHER set of "great grandparents."

I'm sure my parents have suffered along with me all of these years. But, none of us wants to confuse two beautiful young children with the realities of this failed relationship.

Even "I" don't want to force myself on these two young children as some kind of "grandparent" that they must accept and learn to know. I don't know WHAT to do about this... but, I only want to establish contact with MY daughter at THIS point. HER children should be shielded as long as necessary for their own well being.

My parents are "long suffering." They are intelligent and loving. They can deal with whatever comes their way.

They HAVE a "great grandchild" that they dote over. They will soon have some more... if they live a little longer. They are probably no more anxious than ME to "invade" the lives of two young children who have NO IDEA of their heritage or of those who care about and love them.

But... what do "I" know about grandchildren or great-grandchildren? I know the difference between 'genetics' and family. But, MY geneology doesn't fit easily onto some "tree."

Are those MY grandchildren? There are no pics of them in MY arms. Their tiny little LIVES are filled with joys that I cannot give them... at this point. And who says they WANT to know ME or my parents?

They have love from grandparents already. Children don't even understand the concept of "living" great grandparents... let alone ones from a previous marriage of their grandmother.

But, if they CAN be considered MY grandchildren... they are the most beautiful of ALL grandchildren! My daughter did well in choosing a mate. Maybe. I think they have divorced. I don't know much about the man that my daughter chose to father her children. But, I wasn't there to give her any advice. I accept things the way they are.

[GMAN]

If it were my child I would not let anything stand in the way of at least making contact with her. Children are very resiliant. They can use all the love that they can get. They are much easier to adapt than adults. It would be good if she and her children could get to know you and your parents while they are still living. They need to know about their "other" family. I think people have a void in their lives if they don't know about their heritage. We all have scoundrels somewhere in our families. Whether good or bad, we all need to understand from where we came. Otherwise, there will always be something that is missing in our lives. Your daughter and her children can decide whether to continue or pursue the relationship once you meet. I still think that she is curious about you and what happened between you and her mother. She has only had one perspective and that came from her mother.

[Musicman]

Originally Posted by golfhobo

Are those MY grandchildren? There are no pics of them in MY arms. Their tiny little LIVES are filled with joys that I cannot give them... at this point. And who says they WANT to know ME or my parents?

They have love from grandparents already. Children don't even understand the concept of "living" great grandparents... let alone ones from a previous marriage of their grandmother.

But, if they CAN be considered MY grandchildren... they are the most beautiful of ALL grandchildren! My daughter did well in choosing a mate. Maybe. I think they have divorced. I don't know much about the man that my daughter chose to father her children. But, I wasn't there to give her any advice. I accept things the way they are.

Hobo, who the heck has a normal family these days? I’m 39, my son, who is now 19, hasn’t had a single friend (maybe one or two exceptions) that hasn’t had some “abnormal” family life. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a traditional American family anymore. The days of Ozzie and Harriet are over. When a woman tells her husband that he was “a little hard on the Beaver last night” nobody thinks she’s talking about her younger son. I really don’t think from listening to my son Jon that most kids today would make a huge deal about suddenly discovering a lost branch of the family tree. Will you ever have the kind of bond that comes from being in the daily life of a child from birth or soon after? Probably not, but there is something to be said for a relationship that develops over years. Sometimes the bonds that develop later are even stronger than those that form in younger years. There is no sure fire answer to your dilemma, but I can’t imagine many right thinking folks being too worried about how the kids and grandkids will take things.

Let’s just focus on the matter at hand, breaking the ice with your daughter. You made your gambit and now it’s probably time to let things simmer. I know many of us are getting damn tired of waiting for something to happen, and I’m sure YOU don’t have any finger nails left, but some things just take some time. I don’t think you want to come across as pushy, just a hurt, remorseful “old dude” to quote my own father, looking to share whatever part of your daughter’s life she’s willing to give.

I hate giving advice and don’t general do so in the personal realm, but here I can’t resist. I’d give her more time before writing again. Maybe a few more weeks. Then write her another letter telling her that obviously you’ve gotten no response and you don’t know what to make of the silence. Maybe say that you are going to err on the side of “contact wanted” in the absence of her reply and that you are going to start writing her a little bit now and then so that she can get to know you better and perhaps then she will feel more confident in replying. Tell her that if she wants you to go away, she will have to tell you to do so and until then you’re going to write her the occasional private message on Facebook. This will achieve two goals… 1) let her see into your daily life and get to know you with little or no emotional risk and 2) show her over the weeks or months (if it takes that long) that you are serious about being in her life and that you aren’t going anywhere. If she sees that you aren’t looking for a few chats to satisfy your curiosity and then plan on disappearing, perhaps she’ll feel a bit more froggy and jump on writing you back.

[Sharlie]

Originally Posted by Musicman

When a woman tells her husband that he was “a little hard on the Beaver last night” nobody thinks she’s talking about her younger son.

speechless

[Musicman]

Originally Posted by Sharlie

speechless

I guess I could've said that these days, a show titled "Leave it to Beaver" would be much more likely to be an all-girl adult film than a family oriented TV series.

[golfhobo]

Musicman said:

Hobo, who the heck has a normal family these days? I’m 39, my son, who is now 19, hasn’t had a single friend (maybe one or two exceptions) that hasn’t had some “abnormal” family life. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a traditional American family anymore. The days of Ozzie and Harriet are over.

Very true. As children, my siblings and I were "shielded" from the fact that my mother was adopted, and that we had "other" grandparents, aunts and uncles. Maybe due to moral stigmas of the time, or maybe (as I mentioned) it would just be too complicated for our young minds to comprehend. By the time we found out, times had changed alot and it was no big deal to us. I'm sure my daughter and her children are probably light years ahead of where WE were, and would be surprised to learn that "Leave it to Beaver" was a black/white sitcom where older brothers were actually "protective" of their younger, smaller and weaker siblings. [And that's ALL I'm going to say about THAT! lol!]

Will you ever have the kind of bond that comes from being in the daily life of a child from birth or soon after? Probably not, but there is something to be said for a relationship that develops over years. Sometimes the bonds that develop later are even stronger than those that form in younger years.

No, I will never have that bond. I'm too old to think about having a child again, and I'm pretty sure I wasn't very good at it the FIRST time around. I don't want to say that I was "relieved" when my EX forced me to END our family experiment, but I will say that I looked forward MORE to the years when my child became a thinking, rational and questioning "person" that I could have intellectual (and loving) conversations with. Unfortunately, I missed many of THOSE years, too!

My father and I have never really had THAT kind of bond, and it is a shame. But, he loves me all the same. It's like someone said on the "best smells" thread... he held me and smelled my skin (or whatever) when I was a newborn. I didn't even get THAT with my daughter. She was 11 months old before I moved West to marry her mother.

I could have, and should have, FOUGHT for my relationship back when it would have mattered. I took the easy way out, thinking that I would HAVE that chance to be in her life when she got older. I gambled and lost. Maybe. What right did I have to think that I could skip all the pain of "rearing" a child and somehow, someday, reap the rewards of "raising" one? [or better yet... just HAVING one?] And don't forget... I KNEW I could be dangerous to her physically or mentally. I thought I was doing the best thing for ALL concerned to step aside for a time. Now I fully understand the meaning of "Time waits for NO man."

Let’s just focus on the matter at hand, breaking the ice with your daughter.

Yes... let's! Before Sharlie tells us what she REALLY thinks about "the Beaver!" LOL!

You made your gambit and now it’s probably time to let things simmer. I know many of us are getting damn tired of waiting for something to happen, and I’m sure YOU don’t have any finger nails left, but some things just take some time.

I apologize for that. I never thought this thread would turn into a soap opera. I just hoped for some advice on what I should do. The response has been overwhelming... and greatly appreciated. I know you SAY that there are no normal families/people/relationships... but, I've been around CAD long enough to know that MOST of my friends here have had a more normal life than mine. EVEN those who've been divorced have had a more normal relationship with their EX or their children (in MOST cases) than I have. WHO goes 30 years without some kind of contact? If I thought everyone here had a "Cleaver family" experience, I would have had no reason to ask for help. WHAT would they KNOW of my situation?

I've heard bits and snippets from many over the years, and I KNOW that I am not so "special" when it comes to family troubles. But, hearing some of the testimonies here has REALLY brought it into focus for me. I would say that this thread deserves to be a "sticky," NOT just for what it has meant to ME but for what it could mean to others. But, what do I know? Maybe this is just "normal life" for most of you. Again... it goes back to whether you've dealt with it all your lives, or have "suppressed" it the way I have [because you had no options.]

I don’t think you want to come across as pushy, just a hurt, remorseful “old dude” to quote my own father, looking to share whatever part of your daughter’s life she’s willing to give.

I certainly don't want to (or have a RIGHT to) come across as pushy. But, I can't quite muster the "hurt, remorseful old dude" part... even if it is true to some extent. If I was hurt, it wasn't by HER! If I am remorseful, it is for what WE lost moreso than any action I took. I never felt that I abandoned my daughter. I was not the one who LEFT. My EX had a chance to make me a part of my daughter's life... she chose NOT to. I realize that I can't (or shouldn't) present this as an argument on my behalf just yet... but, I prefer to approach her (if I am given the opportunity) with a sense of HOPE for the future. It will be difficult for me to avoid placing blame where I think it is deserved, though I will DO so. And I WILL accept any blame that I am due... or any SHE feels that I deserve. I will be as honest with her as I have been with all of you. But... I don't think I am capable of going "hat in hand."

I hate giving advice and don’t generally do so in the personal realm, but here I can’t resist.

I suppose that is an admirable trait... but, I'm glad you have chosen to do so. Not to elevate your advice above all that I have received here, but... what you said next is VERY wise... beyond your (inferior) years. [But, EVERY response has been critical, informative, and WELCOMED.]

I’d give her more time before writing again. Maybe a few more weeks. Then write her another letter telling her that obviously you’ve gotten no response and you don’t know what to make of the silence. Maybe say that you are going to err on the side of “contact wanted” in the absence of her reply and that you are going to start writing her a little bit now and then so that she can get to know you better and perhaps then she will feel more confident in replying. Tell her that if she wants you to go away, she will have to tell you to do so and until then you’re going to write her the occasional private message on Facebook. This will achieve two goals… 1) let her see into your daily life and get to know you with little or no emotional risk and 2) show her over the weeks or months (if it takes that long) that you are serious about being in her life and that you aren’t going anywhere. If she sees that you aren’t looking for a few chats to satisfy your curiosity and then plan on disappearing, perhaps she’ll feel a bit more froggy and jump on writing you back.

Well... it's been a few more weeks. I think I WILL send another Private Message. Maybe she'll see this one and then read the first (IF she somehow missed it.) I don't think I can LIE to her and say that I will err on the side of "contact wanted." I will HAVE to say that IF she saw my first message and chose not to respond, I will have to consider that "contact UNwanted." At least not yet. But, like you said... she would have to tell me to go away. I mentioned earlier that I could accept THAT if it were her decision... but, she'll have to TELL me so.

But, I LIKE the part about telling her that I will continue to send private messages until (or unless) she tells me to stop. And I agree with the GOALS you said it will achieve:

1) To tell her a bit about myself so she won't feel I'm such a stranger, without requiring HER to take a personal risk.

2) To let her know that I am serious about beginning a relationship between us... not JUST a "feel good moment" for ME!

It NEVER occurred to me that she might think that. That I just needed to "close the book" on the years of estrangement. And that I would then "disappear" again! IF she felt abandoned by me (originally or in the future...) that would be heaping insult upon injury! NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Thank you.

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by Twilight Flyer

I have the FB app on my phone and the message is fairly prominent...bright red icon at the top of the app bar. However, if you don't pick it up on that visit, the icon disappears, even if the message is unread.

Thanks for the info, Batman. It is possible that HER phone has a less prominent icon. OR... she had multiple messages and missed seeing MINE. I can only hope. The information is invaluable to me, considering how my mind works. [and how LITTLE I know about these "tekkie" things!]

[Twilight Flyer]

Originally Posted by golfhobo

Thanks for the info, Batman. It is possible that HER phone has a less prominent icon. OR... she had multiple messages and missed seeing MINE. I can only hope. The information is invaluable to me, considering how my mind works. [and how LITTLE I know about these "tekkie" things!]

I'll take it a step further and tell you that little message icon is pretty wonky, too. There have been times where it didn't notify me there were messages and other times where it notified me that a message I had received a week or more ago was new. So yeah, it's REALLY possible that if she's using a phone, she may indeed have missed it.

[Musicman]

Originally Posted by golfhobo

Yes... let's! Before Sharlie tells us what she REALLY thinks about "the Beaver!" LOL!

I was kinda hoping we’d be treated to a long and interesting dissertation from Sharlie and her observations about beaver, but I digress.

Originally Posted by golfhobo

I certainly don't want to (or have a RIGHT to) come across as pushy. But, I can't quite muster the "hurt, remorseful old dude" part... even if it is true to some extent. If I was hurt, it wasn't by HER! If I am remorseful, it is for what WE lost more so than any action I took. I never felt that I abandoned my daughter. I was not the one who LEFT.

I wasn’t trying to insinuate that you feel or bear any responsibility for the way things happened. You DO sound to me to be torn up (whether it be remorse, or hurt or whatever adjective you prefer) over not having the opportunity to be involved in your daughter’s life. There are many things I regret in my life that I have no responsibility for. There are things that went wrong in my sons’ lives that I may feel “hurt” over, but again have little or no responsibility for outcome.

[GMAN]

We all make mistakes in life. Unfortunately, we can't go back and do things differently. There is nothing that we can do to change the past, but we can start anew and try to not make the same mistakes in the future.