Slimland: Sorry about any confusion in my first few posts. I referred to Man's Law, AND God' law. I believe that, at the time, they were pretty much the same thing. Much of man's law, as it concerned the Jews, was based on or completely, God's law.

My point was that the scripture you quoted meant that Jesus was born of Man, so that he would be "under" the laws of the land, and therefore Jewish Law.

This in NO way implies that God was subject to these laws that he laid down for his "children."

I"ve scanned the links, thank you. Some of them are 12-17 pages long, so I haven't got the time right now to read every post.

My problem with you lies in only two areas. 1) that you quote yourself into a corner, adding your own interpretations, and end up saying things about God being FORCED to live by his own laws, or that He is powerless to do otherwise. and 2) This stuff about "dying to the law."

My point is that God would have created ALL things, including the Law he laid down for his creation, but would not cease to exist just because HE chose to do other than to follow his own law.

I'll get back to this as soon as I've gotten a better grip on what you are saying, and what the Bible says about it.

 

I never said that God was Forced into His Own Law--But let me clarify-- I believe that God subjected Himself to His own Law.

As the scripture states-- That the Law "10 Commandments" and the "ceremonial laws" are the Laws of sin and death. And from what Paul tells us is that Man cannot live up to this Law--Because we fail in every catagory of this Law. Therfor it brings nothing but sin and death. This is why he says--that wich is Holy, brings death--because it shows us our sin, and unrighteousness, therfor brings spiritual death or shows our spiritual death!
Jesus being God--subjected Himself to this Law. Therfor is my stance.
Why do I think that Jesus is God? Because -- The Word was with God and WAS God, and became FLESH and dwelt amongst men.
So being fully man concieved by the Holy Spirit, being born to a Virgin. This Man who is God in the flesh, does not have the evil seed, that we as normal men carry. Thus he was born spiritualy alive, this is why He was the best sacrifice. Not to mention that the WORD of God was the Law. So this would mean that Christ is the Law. This is why Paul states the Law wich was Givin to man, was a shadow of what was to come--The substance is Christ.
So God subjected Himself to His Own Word.
This is where the New Covenant comes in---Jesus fulfilled the Old Law "Covenant" Why? Because, man could not live up to it!
So He takes the Sin of the world upon Himself and dies to the Law. Becuase sin is dealt with by the shedding of blood. and what a better sacrifice than God Himself, the creator of the Law. Now under the New Covenant-- We forever have a intersessor, and a New Covenant. Did this change the principal of the Law--NO. It just made it easeir to believe. Cause anything not of faith is sin. This is why the Just shall live by faith. And there sins and lawless acts God says He will remember NO More. Where these have been forgiven, Now there is NO more sacrifice for sin.
The Old Law-- The priest would sacrifice every year, the blood of bulls and goats etc. and though this would cover sin, it could not take it away. But the Blood of the Son of God, is forever. Not to mention since there was a change in the Law, there must be a change of Priest hood. Now we are no longer under Livitical Priesthood, but under the Priest hood of Mekelsedik.

I can go on and on--but if you where to read Hebrews and Romans, then Galations and Ephisians, not to mention 1John, Peter, James, and Corinthians. You would get a better picture of what I am saying.

Slimland

 

Can God make a law that is legally binding to man :?:

 

Slimland: I didn't get a chance to read your last post before composing this offline. But, since I went through all the trouble.... I'll post it and then come back to your last, which I must say... is much more conversational and less recitational! :lol:

------------

Slimland: For what it's worth, I've been reading my Bible off and on for many years. I have scraps of paper marking many scriptures that have guided my life. But, in researching this topic, I find that NONE of them concerned this issue of "the Law."

I'm not sure why you (or I) find it so fascinating, other than the possibility that you feel that your past life has taken you so far away from it. And you are looking for "rules" that you can follow to bring yourself closer to Him.

I just read the first 8 chapters of Romans, and I'm convinced that MOST of what is discussed in the Bible concerning the LAW, is as I said, about Jewish law concerning circumscision and other statements by the priests as to HOW one can be justified by God. Paul is mostly concerned with telling his Gentile churches how and why they can be "adopted" as sons of God through faith, though they live outside the Jewish laws.

Heb 8:19:

For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope DID; by the which we draw nigh to God.

He made a point in the book of Timothy, to warn against those who try too hard to discern and interpret the law:

I Tim: 1:6-9:

From which SOME having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, NOR whereof they affirm. But we know that the law is good, if a man use if lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is NOT made for a righteous man,but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners....

In Romans 7, Paul (once the blasphemous Saul) is saying that until he KNEW of the Jewish law, he was unaware of his sin. He even says that "what is good and holy" was NOT the death of him... God forbid. But, that once recognized as sin, the continuance down that path led only to eternal death and damnation.

His point is that the Gentiles, ignorant of the Jewish law, are not subject to it, but rather are redeemed through Christ and made righteous by their beliefs and their works. (And don't NEED to be circumscised!) It is unbelievable almost, how much of the scripture concerns this ONE aspect of the "law." Cirmcumscision!

Now... to the question of God being subject to his own law:

Rocky said: "The thing is if YOU could create the Universe, would you have any choice NOT to, and it COULD not be any different than it is, other wise it WOULD be."

God certainly was under NO mandate to create the universe JUST because he could. This shows that he had a choice, and always HAS had one, in ALL things. Could it NOT have been different than it is? I'm sure it could have been. All things are possible through God, therefore, he could have made the universe any way he wanted to. He was not subject to ANY law that dictated HOW he created the universe. The fact that it is NOT different than it is, in NO way indicates that it COULDN'T be. Only that it ISN'T, and if it was...then it would be as he wished, and STILL could have been different.

Someone said: "...But sorry I feel that God has to follow the laws that govern the Universe, Or he will not be God." This is unfounded, and Littleman's response:

"If I find out someone or something else created the laws that govern the universe that God has to follow, I will worship him or it because it would seem to me that this entity would certainly be able to beat up the god of the Bible"

is exactly correct! God MADE the laws that govern the universe, and therefore can change them whenever he wants.

Chapchap said: "I do not understand the thinking that God is subject to the laws of the universe. If this were true, wouldn't the laws of the universe be God, and the god of the Bible be a servant?"

Absolutely. Only in science fiction novels, can a creator be subserviant to his creation.

Slim said: "God, making the Law of the universe, would be subject to the Law, Why? Because He is Just and Good. And to deny the Law would be to deny Himself. Because He is the Law."

This flimsy defense wouldn't even hold up in an American court of law!
Isaiah 33:22:

For the Lord is our Judge, the Lord is our Lawgiver, the Lord is our King; He will save us.

The Lord GIVES the Law. Like many judges and lawmakers and Kings... he is ABOVE the law he GIVES. He has absolute POWER, and thus cannot be impeached, regardless of his acts.

I Cor 6:12:

All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: All things are lawfull FOR me, but I will not be brought under the power of ANY.

Now... that may NOT have been God talking through his apostle, but it sounds like it was. It CERTAINLY sounds like something GOD would say if someone tried to tell him he must obey his own laws! (kind of like Saddam!)

Quoting Slim:

The law of Sin and Death, is the Law in which you speak. For this is the Law Which gives us the Knowlege of Sin and the Righteous requirments of this Law produces death in man.

The WAGES of sin is death. And this stems from the time of Adam and Eve. It may be true that, once aware of our sin, the turning away from God's gift of salvation brings eternal death, but again... this is a law God gave to Man. It is not the "knowledge" of this law that produces death, but the breaking of it.

We know that the knowlege of Evil comes from the Law of God. Other wise, we would have never Known, thou shall not covet! But now we know, we are condemned. For the breaking of 1 commandment is to break all, and the punishment for this is death.

We are not condemned simply because we KNOW the laws of God, but because, as humans, we cannot be perfected to a level above the law. I found no scripture that says the breaking of ONE commandment is to break them all! And not even one that says breaking any of these commandments is a death sentence. As you stated, these commandments were a "primer" on how God would have us live to glorify HIM.

And remember, these commandments were part of Mosaic law. They were given to the early Jews, and were superceded by the death of Jesus on the cross.

But... back to the point:

Slimland says: "The Law is Holy, but when it flows through man it kills him."

I can't find the scripture that backs this up. I'm sure the POPE can't either.

"Now as for God being subject to His own Law--

Hebrews 6:18
18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.

I've studied this scripture over and over, and all its references, and cannot be sure what TWO things are being cited. But... it sounds as if it refers to only TWO things about which God cannot lie. I don't know for sure as of this writing. But, even IF so....

The Above scriptur, says that is Impossible for God to lie, Why? Because He is subject to His own Law.

NO... but because he is TRUTH. That is different than being subject to his own law, and your reasoning needs substantiation.

If He were to Lie, then He could be Tempted,

If, as you say, the three are one... then he WAS tempted. Jesus was tempted by the Devil while wandering in the wilderness. And even GOD was tempted, or tested, debated or challenged by Lucifer as concerned JOB.

for the Lie is the sin, but sin does not take root, untill the fall into temptation.

You're talking in circles again. If lying is a sin, then the sin is committed as soon as the lie comes out of our mouth.

For ANYTHING that is not faith is Sin.

No basis for this in the Bible. Good works are mentioned, and it is said they will not get us to heaven. But NOWHERE are they considered a SIN.

So if God were to Sin, and Sin according to scripture is to go against God's Word "i.e: unbelief" then God would no longer be.

You have NO basis for this in the Bible. Please quote one scripture that says that God would cease to be if he went against his own word, or in any other way "sinned."

Why? Because that wich created, would no longer believe in Himself. And what happens if Sin, i.e: Unbelief, were to happen? God would have to die!!! This is according to His own Law, This is Why He cannot be Tempted Nor Can He Lie.

Give me ONE scripture that says God could EVER die... for ANY reason! God's LAW, best as I can tell, applied ONLY to his creation. Show me ONE tennet under God's Law that says 1) that HE is subject to it or, 2) that the penalty for him breaking his own law is his death or cessastion of existence!

Even JESUS... who took on ALL the sins of mankind, and DIED "to the law" as you say, rose to live again in glory with God!

This is why I say you talk yourself into a corner. You try HARD to understand his word, but it is hard for ANY of us to do so. Then, when you think you've "got it" you come to some totally unbelievable and unsubstantiated "truth."

I don't question your faith, and absolutely am not ridiculing your belief! But, when you quote scriptures as answers to questions from the unbelievers, and talk yourself into a frenzy of "immortal suicide," you do no favor to your convictions, and give "aid and comfort" to the unbelievers like FOZZY!

Now, before someone JUMPS me, I don't CLAIM to know all there is to know about God! And I have ALMOST as much trouble as others understanding the redundant babbling that someone wrote down in the Bible. But, I am not NEW to this "religion" thing. And IF I have a talent at ALL... it is in comprehension. So... sue me!

If I thought one could understand the Bible by praying, and that God would answer us, I would be on my knees every free hour of the day! For, I too, want to know the truth!

There are MANY who have spent their whole lives trying to interpret the Word, and I believe only a part of what they say. I'm sorry, Slimland, but until I see a glowing light around you, I am not inclined to take YOUR word for it, either.

I don't debate you to discourage you! Rather, I encourage you, as I did before, to investigate what OTHERS say. To me, your "interpretations" as you feel God has revealed them to you, are at least SOMEWHAT a figment of your own human understanding... and I hate to see you lead yourself astray.

In that God is all things to all people, there may be no harm in it. But, you seem to genuinely want to know all you can, and I am only pointing out that you are new to it and, "when we were Babes, we thought as babes." (or however it goes.)

I don't know for sure that God talks to me. And I'd be surprised if he still listens to me. [I refused a calling to be a minister.] But, if so... He'll get my vote that YOU be accorded all blessings of the faithful. And I'll PRAY that he doesn't hold that against you!


HOBO

 

This is exactly why I put the links GolfHobo--Because I knew that it would be missunderstood. Unlike you--I do not have the ability to break things down to a short and to the point story. I feel compelled to explain, and sometimes I explain to much! So the links though it is jumpy--all put together helps one to understand.
Out of all the debates and discussions can one understand what I have said, I wish it where just one--but it did not work out that way. As you can see--you yourself where wondering where I had come from.

This thread should have been started along time ago!


Now let me explain my thoughts in which you quoted, though I do believ you understand them now. But not all have the understanding nor the backgroung that you and I have!!!!



My point exactly on this!

[quote]Slim said: "God, making the Law of the universe, would be subject to the Law, Why? Because He is Just and Good. And to deny the Law would be to deny Himself. Because He is the Law."

If God is Truth--and His definitiion of Truth is Holyness without Sin, What would be the definition of Sin?

Romans 14:22-23
22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.


The law of Sin and Death, is the Law in which you speak. For this is the Law Which gives us the Knowlege of Sin and the Righteous requirments of this Law produces death in man.

Romans 3:19-20
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 4:15
15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Romans 5:12-21
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned? 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man?s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man?s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man?s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man?s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man?s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man?s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So if the definition of Sin is to go against Gods Word "ie Law" Then God Himself could not either, Because He is Just and Good, and cannot Lie, and lying is against the law, and is not of Faith. and anything that is not of Faith is SIN. and God is not Sin, and He cannot deny Himself. So He "GOD" has made Himself subject to His own WORD!


Romans
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, ?You shall not covet.?[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

The Pope needs to read more then!

Temptaion is not sin--but the fall into it is.

James 1:12-15
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, ?I am tempted by God?; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Now the reson that God cannot be temted, is that He had already proved that He cannot fall into temtation wich is sin "to deny Himself" as for Christ being temted, He had to be in order to fulfill the law without sin.
Do you understand this, or do I need to explain more?

.

Romans 14:22-23
22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

Now who is talking in circles?
I have explaind this above!
You are right no scripture ever said God could not die-- But Jesus being God, died for us, to redeem us from the consiqueses of the Law, and rose again to give us new life in HIM!
Why did He die? Was it because He became sin for us? Thus subjecting Himself to Himself "the law" and the law says those who have sin must have the shedding of blood! So HIS blood was shed, because of Sin, He became sin to deliver us. thus He was subjected to His own Law.
Then He made the New Covenant come into effect, which still has the prerequisit of believ or not, but now it is easier to come to the throne, for our sins and lawless acts He remembers no more.
So here we have the discussion of is God subject to His own Law?
We know that Jesus was and is God, and He himself subjected Himself to His own word. and became the curse for us, so we would not have to tast death, for those who believ in Him. Thus it fulfilles the Holy requierment's of the Law, and the basis of the Law still stands. and the Hole bassis of the Law is belief in Him. cause anything that is not of faith is sin.

 

Slim: I certainly don't want to be guilty of talking in circles, but with all these subtopics going, it is hard not to. So, in an attempt to clarify or simplify the "discussion:"

First, we now have identified at least 3 different laws, and it is hard not to confuse them. 1) The law of God given to the Jews, 2) the law of sin and death (i.e: the NEW covenant that ALL must be justified by, and 3) the law of the Universe.

One of the original claims (not even sure if YOU made it) was that God created the Universe and therefore was subject TO those laws.

To me... here we are discussing the laws of physics that explain how the universe began or continues. I see no reason or proof that God is "bound" by any of these physical laws. Indeed such miracles as the burning bush, immaculate conception, raising of the dead, feeding of the multitudes, and others prove this.

As for the Mosaic Law, I believe we are in agreement that this was a primer meant to keep the Jews closer to God, and never even promised Eternal Life to those who followed it. I believe it is clear, from the scriptures we both discussed, that there was MUCH discussion in the day about whether the Gentiles could be "adopted" if they didn't follow these laws. The letters of the apostles are almost wholly dedicated to resolving this dispute between and amongst the various tribes.

At one point there, Paul talks HIMSELF into circles and comes close to confusing the law of the Jews with the law that you refer to as Sin and Death. Keep in mind, he was not composing a research paper, a codicile, or an instruction manual at the time. He was getting emotional while writing a letter to the church, and knowing them to be almost totally ignorant of the things of which he spoke, he tried to give too much information to clarify himself. This is why these books of the Bible are so difficult to understand.

At this point, my concern is with some of the things you say concerning this NEW law, and whether God subjected himself to it; and some of the things you say about it being the death of someone. To that end...


[quote="Slimland"][quote

Quote:

Slim said: "God, making the Law of the universe, would be subject to the Law, Why? Because He is Just and Good. And to deny the Law would be to deny Himself. Because He is the Law."

This has been an interesting discussion, Slim. But, I believe I've said about all that I can. (for now, anyways.) I will let YOU have the last word. And then we can argue with Fozzy some more! :lol:


Hobo

 

You two should just write a novel together; it's gonna take me a whole night to read all of this- and to even understand most of it!

 

That's okay... you've got a whole 42 hours! :lol:

Now you know why, for the most part, I stayed OFF of his other theads! :shock: :lol:

Brew a pot of coffee, and call me about 41:45 tomorrow! :lol:

 

Yes.... sort of. MANY ancient legal systems were based on God's law. Many women were convicted and stoned to death for committing adultery. The Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch trials were other examples of humans being punished by other humans for breaking laws that were based on the Bible.

Give the Conservatives another term and we will see similar examples in our OWN "enlightened" society.

Even NOW, a man can be sent to prison for committing sodomy, even with a consenting adult.

 

Your just not gonna' let me live that down, are ya'? :lol:
Hey, '84' hours is on tv right now How 'bout that! Think I'll go watch- maybe I will learned somethin'! :shock: