[golfhobo]

Slim: Well, here it is. The thread we promised to further discuss whether God is subject to his own (or some universal) law, or not.

As we discussed, I would appreciate if you would list any thread links that I may need for research. I need them HERE and not in a PM.

This is NOT going to be argumentative, or in any way disrespectful to God or to you (if I can manage it.) This is a discussion thread.

I only ask that you MINIMIZE your quoting of scripture. If you'd like to give them as references, I'm sure I can find them in my Bible. Small excerpts will be accepted. But.... I REALLY want you to speak from your OWN heart as to what you believe, or have been taught, or conclusions you've come to.

If I understand you correctly, and without yet researching ALL your threads, you believe that God instituted a LAW that he cannot break. In this way, you feel he is subject to his own law, and that somehow... if he broke his own law, he could NOT exist. Please correct me if I misunderstand your premise.

Just because my father is a minister, and I've heard the Gospel and other sermons ALL my life, does NOT make me an expert. I will not presume that I know ALL the answers. But, I ask that you keep your arguments brief and to the point, and try not to talk in circles. Religion is a very confusing and deep subject, and it is hard to address your concerns/beliefs when they are MANY and cyclical. (i.e: don't talk yourself into a corner.)

Regardless of my personal beliefs about the existence of God, I will respond as though there IS one for the purpose of discussion. I will try not to muddy the waters with questions about his existence. However, please do not assume that I believe as fervently as you do, and try to answer me on a philosophical level instead of an evangelical one.

For the purpose of this discussion, MY vantage point is this:

God created ALL in heaven and Earth, including all laws. He put himself below NO laws. The fact that he cannot, or MAY not, violate any law that we have ascribed to Him, in NO way means that he is subject to any law that HE made, or that if he chose to break one, he would somehow cease to exist, or would not ever HAVE existed.

If I read you right, you seem to believe that IF he broke his own law, he would not be, and could not be, God.

There have been many things you've said that I might want to debate, but for now, the subject is God's law and whether or not he exists ONLY because he does not or cannot break his own law.

Are we agreed on this? Or have I missed your point?

Hobo

[Fozzy]

Universal law does not require a god....

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by Fozzy

Universal law does not require a god....

It does if you believe God created the universe and therefore all the laws that govern it. :lol:

Be NICE, Fozzy. Slim hasn't even weighed in yet, and this is a discussion he wanted to have concerning God's Law and whether or not he is subject to it.

You, and anyone else, are welcome to join in if you like. But, try to stay on topic. :wink:

[And please, folks... no HUGE pictures of trucks that exceed the limits mentioned in the TOS. They make me have to scroll back and forth JUST to read each line of every post on the page.]

EDITED one time to correct a bad impression I made.

[Consider]

... this is a pretty short thread... and no input from Slimland...

What happened? (oops, I thought this thread was from 2005... sorry. I wasnt' reading accurately.)

I was all ready to read this discussion.

[golfhobo]

Consider: Slimland just PM'd me Saturday morning saying he thought I'd decided NOT to have this discussion. I didn't see his message until last night, and told him actually I was just about to start it now.

I guess he's out of town for the weekend or something. In case you missed it, this is a continuation of a discussion we were having on the Big Bang Theory thread. It didn't belong there, so we decided to move it to here.

[Consider]

Originally Posted by golfhobo

Consider: Slimland just PM'd me Saturday morning saying he thought I'd decided NOT to have this discussion. I didn't see his message until last night, and told him actually I was just about to start it now.

I guess he's out of town for the weekend or something. In case you missed it, this is a continuation of a discussion we were having on the Big Bang Theory thread. It didn't belong there, so we decided to move it to here.

Oh, I've been meaning to look at the Big Bang thread... Thanks for reminding me.

Where's the NEW LAWS thread? I can't find it... there are 15 pages that turn up when I search "new laws" and I haven't checked all of those pages yet.

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by Consider

Oh, I've been meaning to look at the Big Bang thread... Thanks for reminding me.

Where's the NEW LAWS thread? I can't find it... there are 15 pages that turn up when I search "new laws" and I haven't checked all of those pages yet.

Here it is, Consider. Sorry, I couldn't remember the actual title of it before.

http://www.classadrivers.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=20866

[Slimland]

Helloo-- am I in the right place :lol:

Well GolfHobo--you put down my thought exaclty the way I said them, so you are correct in your presentation.
I will try to keep it simple, and I will try to keep it from circling back into the same point. "you know me too well"

As for links to other discussions, I will galdly give them or just repost them on this thread. whatever you like.

As for scripture-- I will do my best to paraphrase-and follow with the verse key, and not the actual verse, that way you can read it for your self..


Lets start with the question.

Is God subject to His own Law??


I had stated befor that Jesus was the Word of God, and therfor God, and also thus the Law. This is backed up in John.

So the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst men. How does this make Him subject to Himself?

But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

This can be found in Galations-- And In my understanding, God made Himself subject to His Own Law, and He was the only one who could fullfill the Law.



This should be a good starting point on this thread-- Sorry it took so long to answer--and as I said via pm-- we are both busy, but I will do my best to get on here during the weeks and not just the weekends, God willing!

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by Slimland

Helloo-- am I in the right place :lol:

Well GolfHobo--you put down my thought exaclty the way I said them, so you are correct in your presentation.
I will try to keep it simple, and I will try to keep it from circling back into the same point. "you know me too well"

As for links to other discussions, I will galdly give them or just repost them on this thread. whatever you like.

As I said, please post the links to the previous threads HERE. That way I can click on them to research or quote as I need them... while IN this response mode.

As for scripture-- I will do my best to paraphrase-and follow with the verse key, and not the actual verse, that way you can read it for your self..

Hmm... this may or may NOT work. (see below) I didn't mean not to quote the scripture reference - book & chapter, I meant don't give me a block of 15 verses from 3 places in the Bible at once (as an answer to my points.) Paraphrasing DOES give me a perspective on how YOU interpret the scripture though. But, I DO want to know exactly what scripture you reference when doing so. Does that make sense?


Lets start with the question.

Is God subject to His own Law??


I had stated befor that Jesus was the Word of God, and therfor God, and also thus the Law. This is backed up in John.

So the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst men. How does this make Him subject to Himself?

But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

This can be found in Galations-- And In my understanding, God made Himself subject to His Own Law, and He was the only one who could fullfill the Law.

See... I don't want to read ALL of Galations looking for this scripture JUST to see whether the part you put in RED is actually THERE or not. Let me clarify: THIS is a short one or two line scripture. Go ahead and quote it AND give the citation (book, chapter & verse.) Then I will go back and read it myself to see the context.

If, however, a concept or point you are making is, say.... found in an entire chapter, then just tell me the book and chapter and NOT use up two pages on this forum quoting the whole thing. Does THAT make sense?



This should be a good starting point on this thread-- Sorry it took so long to answer--and as I said via pm-- we are both busy, but I will do my best to get on here during the weeks and not just the weekends, God willing!

God willing??? Now.... THAT'S another topic! :lol:

[golfhobo]

Okay, Slim: From your first post....

Galations 4:4-5

"But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."

This can be found in Galations-- And In my understanding, God made Himself subject to His Own Law, and He was the only one who could fullfill the Law.

**********

In MY humble opinion and interpretation of this verse [last time I will precede my comments with that... but it will always apply]:

What is being said here is that God sent his son, Jesus, to be born as the son of MAN so that HE (Jesus) would be subject to the Laws of MAN so that he would be an example to those he witnessed to, those that ARE under the law, of how to live one's life for GOD while yet subject to the laws of the "tribe" so to speak.

He could have sent him to Earth on a winged horse and Jesus could have walked among us as a GOD. He didn't want this. He wanted his son to be born "under the law" by being born of a woman.

We often talk of the Trinity as though they are all one in the same, and "in spirit" they may be. But, I believe God is a separate entity from his SON at the time of Jesus' birth. Otherwise, how could he have SENT us his son out of his love for us, and why would Jesus - on the cross - cry out to his father for a reprieve from his will?

So.... he sent his SON to be born "under the law" but this in NO way indicates that God himself has subjugated himself to Man's Law. (Jesus might have to "render unto Caesar... but I can't see GOD doing such.) And that is still different from being under his OWN law.