God is an Outlaw (for Slimland)
#91
10-18-2006, 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by Slimland
First off that sucks about the crash, I had responded to someone who asked about my daughter!
Oh yes... I believe that was Yankee Driver. You answered him, and he got the chance to read it. He shamed me, for I had skipped over that and not shown my care for your situation, but I said so. Not sure if YOU got a chance to read that. There may have been one or two more posts before the RED post. Then I posted my response to Job, and one followup post. I didn't save the followup one, but I think I remember the main points, which I will make below.
So... God gave Mosaic Law to the Jews, and in it he tells them,
"THOU shalt not kill." So... being subject to his own law, the day he wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah, or his entire creation save Noah and his family, he CEASED TO BE, or DIED, because he himself had KILLED thereby breaking his own law? No offense, but I don't really see a difference here. We say that our military kills, but we wouldn't call it murder. But, it IS with intent in their hearts. God killed OR murdered many humans, and ALWAYS with intent in his heart. You cannot deny that. (It wasn't an "accident.") Even YOU spoke of the Wrath of God being death. I agree that the better translation of The Law/Commandment might be Thou shalt not Murder, but either way, GOD did it, though I won't say "when it pleased him to do so." You are splitting hairs with your definition, and it doesn't "justify" God's actions.... as there is no need to! He can do what HE wants. "Vengeance is MINE, sayeth the Lord." (an example that he is ABOVE the law.) That was ONE example. I gave three in the post I lost. Here are the others. (examples of God NOT obeying "the law" - because he is NOT subject to it.) God says, "For I am a jealous God!" Yet, his Law to Man is, "thou shalt not covet your neighbors assets." Jealousy and coveteousness are pretty much the same. God "covets" our admiration. He will not tolerate us worshipping idols. Well... I can't seem to remember the third example, and after checking the commandments, it must have just been another example of one of these two. At any rate... God kills when he wants, but tells us not to. He is a jealous god and covets our time and admiration, yet tells us not to covet anything of our neighbors. My point is that God's Law was given to US, because WE are under the law. But, God is under NO court mandate to subject himself to his own laws. Not as it concerns the Universe, nor Man, nor anything. He did not HAVE to send his son to be under the law, he could have sent him to walk among us as a God. Jesus could have called 10,000 angels (remember the song?) to SAVE him from death "under the law." The fact that Christ/Jesus conspired with his Father in heaven to fullfil the Promise of God, and offered himself as a sacrifice for his creation, in NO way means that he HAD to do it that way. He may HAVE subjected himself to "the law" (in this one case) so that we humans might understand, but he was not BOUND to do so then or ever. I understand you GolfHobo, but I must admit, I do not agree with you on this subject--but you have brought the debate, and very well. But here is my position again. Jesus is God, and Jesus subjected Himself to the Law of the Old Testament and fullfilled it Flawlessly. Therfore as you have stated Hobo--He who knew no sin--became sin for us, and died in our place. etc. Take out the word "subjected" and I agree that he fulfilled the Promise of God flawlessly. As for it being His Father's will-- It was also Christ will, for they are one. But you must understand, He was in the flesh as we are, and experienced the things we did and do, and ALL sin was put on Him! I concurred above, that Jesus went willingly to his death on the cross. Although, he DID say "nevertheless, not MY will, but thine be done." Think of this-- The Law states there is No remmission for sin without the shedding of blood, either the sinners or the sacrifice. And God took those sin's and bore them for us, therfor became sin, and died. That is subject to HIS LAW. He who knew no sin, became sin. And after the death which was the fulfillment, "IT is Finished" He arose the 3rd day to Give us new life in Him, for those who believe. And then gave the new Covenant of Grace. "Their sins and Lawless acts I will remember no more" "now there is no more sacrifice for sin" for Jesus did this ONCE FOR ALL! Now the question is no more touch not taste not, but do you believe in the Only begotten Son of God! I don't disagree with this, and I DON"T mean to patronize you, but do you see the difference "I" see in how well you've worded this? How the progression of logic, though based on scripture, presents the Gospel without such disjointed theories as "God would have to die if he lied?" and that "God is subject to his law SIMPLY because he is just and good?" or that "God is the Word, and the Word when it flows through man, kills him?" (all of those taken from your earlier threads.) Hobo--Do you understand what I am saying? Yes, Slim. I suppose I always DID. I just needed/wanted you to focus your thoughts, organize your references and soften the edges of your absolute statements. You cannot reach the "lost" by confusing them with literal recitations from a book written in an archaic language. Especially, if you "cherry pick" them to support an arguement that makes no sense. Besides.... I just like a good theological debate!
I stand by my statement that God the creator of the universe, is
NOT subject to any Physical laws of the universe, NOR must he subject himself to the laws he gave to MAN, nor can you rely on anything OTHER than man's interpretation of God as a basis for the belief that he would have to DIE, or cease to be, if he in some way violated or contradicted his own law. This is a little different IMOP-- Physical Laws of the Universe we do not know, We think we know but we know nothing. The Law giver Knows where and what Mathmatical equations it takes to make or break the black hole--according to our understanding of what we know of the Laws, this may not be possible. What we see as impossible and when it happens we say it is a miricale, but to God it is just a thought gone into action. The Laws of the Universe God may or maynot go by. I do not know--but who's to say He don't. Maybe He has set the boundry's for man to only know so much. And we in our puny minds, say the laws are such, when in all actuallity, they might be boundless. Eureka!!!! We cannot know all the laws of the Universe. For it was made by the "Master's hand." "A thought gone into action" as you say. We cannot even quanitfy all the laws of the Universe. And may never understand them. So HOW can we say that God MUST be subject to those laws, or he would not BE? And as Bishadi likes to say, WE are all part of that universe. EVERYTHING we know of the universe is based on molecular structure, and GOD is the force that combines them AS HE WILLS. And everything we know about LIFE is through the illumination that God gives us. To search is divine. To claim that we KNOW, is folly. For even Darwin said "If there is a God, He must be boundless and unlimited, a circle whose circumference is everywhere and who's center is no-where. He must be duality, and consist of the manifest and the Non-Manifest. This is God" So if I were to go by this--I would have to say that --that just explained God to a tee and agreed with scripture! I would certainly agree with Darwin, and you, on this one. But, I must point out the word "boundless." It means without boundaries. Incapable of being bound. Under NO bondage. This has been fun, Slim. I hope I have not offended you or anyone else. At the very least, it was a break from dealing with your ex-wife! :lol: One again, I feel I am done. You can have the last word (again.) I only ask that you choose your words carefully! :lol:
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Remember... friends are few and far between. TRUCKIN' AIN'T FOR WUSSES!!! "I am willing to admit that I was wrong." The Rev.
#92
10-19-2006, 01:25 AM
I did read what you said of my daughter, and thankyou! Now this morning I have to take her to the dactor, she is not feeling well!
But before I do I want to say a few things of your last post! First let me make this statement again! All things that I put, are to open the minds of those who are in RELIGION, and to step out of the box, and look at just what they are saying, and as I can see--You GolfHobo have the same mission. And you did it well very well. Rememmber the PM's, they where for the others, not so much as you or I. Kinda like 2 lawyers who just might believe the same, but for the sake of argument, debate a subject. To tell you the Truth, I concure with almost every thing you have stated! The only thing I might disagree with, is-- I believe that though God is not nor can be subjected to His Law, but He Himself did subject Himself, for only He can do that. I guess the easiest way to say it is, He made Laws and Boundry's and He Himself chooses to work withing those, and we as humans and of His creation, cannot even fathom those Laws or Boundries. If it is His Word, Like you said, He can change it, He has changed His mind Before! But like when He says He will not relent, THis to me is subjecting Himself to His Word!
No offense, but I don't really see a difference here. We say that our military kills, but we wouldn't call it murder. But, it IS with intent in their hearts. God killed OR murdered many humans, and ALWAYS with intent in his heart. You cannot deny that. (It wasn't an "accident.") Even YOU spoke of the Wrath of God being death.
I agree that the better translation of The Law/Commandment might be Thou shalt not Murder, but either way, GOD did it, though I won't say "when it pleased him to do so." You are splitting hairs with your definition, and it doesn't "justify" God's actions.... as there is no need to! He can do what HE wants. "Vengeance is MINE, sayeth the Lord." (an example that he is ABOVE the law.) That was ONE example. I gave three in the post I lost. Here are the others. (examples of God NOT obeying "the law" - because he is NOT subject to it.) God says, "For I am a jealous God!" Yet, his Law to Man is, "thou shalt not covet your neighbors assets." Jealousy and coveteousness are pretty much the same. God "covets" our admiration. He will not tolerate us worshipping idols. Well... I can't seem to remember the third example, and after checking the commandments, it must have just been another example of one of these two. At any rate... So I think at times God works within His Own Law, and when He did subject Himself to it, it was to change such a dire Law. Maybe it was for LOVE! Like you said He didn't have too He could have just done it, but my argument is He did, just to show He Loved us. And I believe you believe this too. Hobo this was and excellent discussion, and you sir are an excellent debater. I hope some day we can discuss something like this again, where each of us chooses a side, wether we believe or not, just for the sake of the discussion. Your Brother in Christ Slimland
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You can twist perceptions Reality won't budge You can raise objections I will be the judge And the jury Neil Peart
#93
10-23-2006, 01:46 AM
You can Twist perception, Reality won't budge you can raise objection I will be the judge and the jury.
I'll give it due reflection, watching from the fence. Give the jury direction based on the evedince.
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!! Exactly! Your theology and the pipe dream about some dude is coming through the clouds is for people who cannot comprehend or are too lazy to learn. What a waste of life! Reminds me of teenagers; they got it all figured out! These last post by the bible thumpers is quite alarming and is so sad. You have the new beginning right in this thread and yet still wish to follow the old. Now do you see why I am so fucking arrogant. I hate ignorance!
#94
10-23-2006, 12:33 PM
Originally Posted by Bishadi
You can Twist perception, Reality won't budge you can raise objection I will be the judge and the jury.
That is exactly what theology does and you are no judge nor able with factual understanding to tell anyone other than use what corruption has created.
I'll give it due reflection, watching from the fence. Give the jury direction based on the evedince.
How can you describe anything about our life or direct anyone with any direction when all you have to use is an old "pong" owners manual.
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!! Exactly!
Your theology and the pipe dream about some dude is coming through the clouds is for people who cannot comprehend or are too lazy to learn.
What a waste of life! Reminds me of teenagers; they got it all figured out! These last post by the bible thumpers is quite alarming and is so sad. You have the new beginning right in this thread and yet still wish to follow the old. Now do you see why I am so **** arrogant. I hate ignorance!
I hate ignorance!
For the wisdom of God is foolishness to those who don't believe, But to the Believer it is the gift of Life!
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You can twist perceptions Reality won't budge You can raise objections I will be the judge And the jury Neil Peart
#95
10-24-2006, 01:18 AM
14 You, however, continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from what persons you learned them (15) and that from infancy you have known the holy writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through the faith in connection with Christ Jesus. (16) All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, (17) that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
This means learn as all learning is of GOD. Even Jesus learned from the old books but did what (?), he shared the truth disregarding theology as it was currently known. He began a dialogue to equip man with a beginning. 5 And this is the message which we have heard from him and are announcing to YOU, that God is light and there is no darkness at all in union with him. 6 If we make the statement: “We are having a sharing with him,” and yet we go on walking in the darkness, we are lying and are not practicing the truth. All men are with GOD. All associations when kept true and honest are as sharing ‘with him.” And yet, the story here says, light is life, God is of everything, man is in God’s image (per se) but yet it is selfishness alone that continues to push other’s back to hate and distrust of old secular sects. Just think about what is being said, even Jesus himself stepped away from the organized beliefs of his time and if anywhere on any piece of real evidence you can show me that Jesus ever saw, or read any of the books (KJV) you are quoting then I could believe but the problem is Jesus himself and the true prophets would never comply to what you call real. Men of compassion focus on real issues and leave pipe dreams to them that know no better. and you should be happy I am just that arrogant. It should tell you something; nothing can stop the truth. The sciences are wrong and why the stupid thing called 'creation' still exists. We think that because man thus far has not been able to comprehend that we will just think God blinked like a Genie and created all this. Man is weak this way and you are not helping. So you tell me that which is evil, a man not commited to truth and follows an old song and don't tell me it is factual because from Galileo forward, all the globe knows, it gives us a good idea on compassion and care but that is it! or is it pure that a man who puts his name, reputation and ever piece of his fiber to share an honest story for the generations to come? What is honest and true?
#96
10-25-2006, 01:10 PM
What you say has some truth, but I am not talking of organized religion, I am talking of a belief. There IMOP is a diffrence. So am I commited to Truth? Yes, I am comitted to Jesus Christ, The Truth and the Life. It is a way of life for my creator, in whom I trust.
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You can twist perceptions Reality won't budge You can raise objections I will be the judge And the jury Neil Peart |
