*Mundaka wades in. I will not quote his entire post*

Good post.
God does lack an ego in my model. Period. In my view, god is sort of the accumulation of consciousness. He is all the consciousness that exists, and if having an ego is a fault - and I believe it is - then in the sum total of all consciousness relayed traits - positive and negative - are cancelled out. God just is!, that's all. He doesn't desire, doesn't command....and he doesn't pout when his flock misbehaves, either.

I think that proves my point: that god stands alone without an opposite. Absolute zero doesn't exist. It can't! And neither can "absence of god"
In my model all things living are living because they are ....cells?....of god. And without these "cells" god would not exist.

The goal of spirituality is not so much to lecture one another about the features of the Bible - which christians do, ad nauseum - but to find ways to reach within the vast body of consciousness and understand it. We're a long way from that goal, and my issue with christians is that they will not allow themselves to explore.

 

I think the Christian version of God has proven he has an ego.. why else would he slaughter millions of people :?:

 

I think that's a good point, and is why I say that christianity has done for god what Walk Disney did for a mouse - dressed him up, put clothes on him, made him more human.
Mickey Mouse is an anthropomorphic mouse and christianity has created an anthropomorphic god.
http://webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...nthropomorphic

 

Well this conversation was going good, untill Fozzy makes his God slaughters millions comment.
When man is the one who has done it, and say "It is Gods will", Why I do believe in divers times this is correct for resons I do not believe you would understand, it still boils down to man.

The reson I said this, is because we have already had that conversation, and now we are descussing our beliefs and aspects of God. And though Fozzy, has never realy said that he didnot believe in a god, We all know his hatred for Christian or many other diety's.

So the question to you Fozzy, is the same as put to the Aligator. What do you believe, and maybe we can discuss this?

 

The BIBLE says that God slaughtered milllions. Are you refuting that god (your version) has killed millions of people?

And what do these men blame or condone their behavior with? Just as the crusaders, Inquisitors, Mullahs, and others proclaim when they kill and destroy, it is gods will. It's really great it seems when you are on the side that is doing the killing or profiting from the killings. When the "other side" or other versions followers are doing the killing, its now "bad" and you want it stopped. IT'S THE SAME THING!

Hate? You should really look that word up. I do not hate very many things. Viewing the global history of orginized religion and their nuttier factions and splinter groups and the fact that it will NEVER get any better until people deal with their gods on their OWN personal level. The second that two like minded apes get together on anything, they will try and convert or kill the third who happens along. We are not very decent animals and ruin far more things that we improve.
This has been done before and everytime you just revert right back to old questions. Just because you need the crutch of orginized religion and need to convince everyone that you are religious.. doesn't mean that everyone else needs to. I find that most people who try so hard to convince others how religious they are, are either hiding the fact that they are completely vile and disgustiing or their are putting on an act to try and convince themselves.

 

Don't even try to twist this around with me Fozzy, you know what I meant by that. I am not one of these newbies that get intemidated by your arguments of confusion and anger.
This is what I said

This is what Fozzy said
Stop and reread what I said! I will seperate it for you.
And then Next
There is that better?? Maybe I should puncuat it better, though I am not good at it I will try.

Why-I do believe in Divers times this is correct! For resons I do not believe or think you would understand, but in the end it still boils down to man, making the discission.



Ok Fozzy- Lets talk about this-- You dislike organized religion, is that better? But that is not the subject at the time!
But lets make it the subject! Side note:This is what I was talking about, we have had this discussion back in febuary, and I though we had some common ground on this! I too do not like organized religion made by man, I have even stated that I believe it was a downfall at one point. But I see a diffrence, between a belief and a Idea of what God is and art to be.
If you want to go deeper on this subject we can, lets just keep it civil. We have had to many threads locked down, and then we have to go over the same things, just to get to the point of moving on, then "BAMM" a comment it mad that is out of line and then it is locked. and You and I have been know to be the Blame. And I don't know about you, but I have always enjoyed your point of view! and Respect it. Even if I don't agree with it.

I said
Fozzy's Reply
How is asking you this question, mean What you replied? Dont read into things Fozzy! It was a simple question.

As for a crutch, if this is the case on my part then so be it. Because as you said, yes I am weak, vile, disgusting, there is nothing good in my flesh, for either night or day, wether asleep or awake, My Flesh is filled with nothing but unrighteousness and sinful thinking, but my inward man stands in the promisses of God, Knowing that He gave His life for me. So that "He that believe in me though he is dead, Yet shall he live".
What you see as weekness, this is agree with you-but when I am week, I am strong, because it is not I who I rely on, but God. And He is able to make me stand within His Law, Through Jesus Christ.

So do I need to convince everyone I am Religious? NO, because I am not. If I was religious as in organized religion, then I would be judgmental and this I am not.
Trying to convince myself that I am not vile? Never-- "He who says, he has no sin, is a liar, and the Truth is not in him"
Yes Fozzy- I am the uppermost top sinner in my mind, For though I believe- Yet I still look at women with lust in my eye! I still get angry- I still worry- These things are instilled in our flesh, but through the feeding of the spirit, I am not a slave to them. and that gives me self controll. And just like anyone else I too fall, But Jesus took care of all that on the cross for my spiritual man, as for my flesh-- It will reap what it sows.


So why don't you answer the question, so that maybe you can bring something or an Idea to the table, other than a dislike for religious mumbo jumbo!

 

Sorry about that <grin>. Slim asked me to return and bring some scientific rigor to this thread, otherwise I would have left you all in contemplative peace.

Thanks 'gator.

I have an admission to make Alligator: I was waiting for this one. I wasn't sure but the gist of your argument just seemed to be leaning this way, and I had to get you to clarify. My sincere apologies.

First, you have made an assumption about consciousness that is in direct conflict to your overall point: that opposites do not need to exist. If negative and positive elements of consciousness are perfectly balanced in order to cancel each other out, then each element of consciousness must not only have an opposite, but in perfectly balanced proportions. More than anything else this reminds me of the 16th century insistence -- by both science and the church -- on proving the existence of celestial crystal spheres in order to support a deus ex machina run mechanistic universe.

Second, you have anthropomorphized God according to your cultural perception of a spiritual ideal. In this case, your culture has determined that an ego is a bad thing to have, ergo a perfect God cannot have one; therefore, the argument is not who is anthropomorphizing, but whose anthropomorphization is the right one.

As an aside, if the Universe was created by God, I would assume he has one hell (!) of an ego: anyone would have to have an incredible ego to create on such a scale.

Well . . . strictly speaking, correct, but you're getting the details and (perhaps) missing the point: Can there be a temperature colder than absolute zero? No -- its a law of nature similar to the absolute speed limit of the Universe, the speed of light. The fact that absolute zero (a total absence of heat) is particularly hard to reach is incidental. A limit exists. With heat a limit does not. In this sense at least, we have a case of opposites.

A direct contradiction: If all living things are cells of God, and if God cannot exist without them, then if all living things find a way to get themselves killed (not that unlikely given the second law of thermodynamics) then an "absence of god" is not a possibility, but a certainty.

Don't write us all off too quickly Alligator, I sympathize with your complaint and agree with it. Its exasperating to watch people who are so devoted to finding truth that they can't bear to look at it.

 

You objected to my statement that god slaughtered millions of people, now what's beef with that. Did god kill people in the bible or didn't he?

People of Judah shout and God helps them kill 500,000 people

God slaughters 70 men for looking into the ark

God has the earth swallow people

God drowns almost everyone on earth

God orders and joins in on the genocide of all of Canaan

God threatens people with having to eat their children?s flesh

Sons of Levi are blessed for randomly slaughtering cow worshippers

God kills all the Egyptian babies for Pharaoh?s stubbornness

God kills the meat eaters

God allows people to sacrifice their babies to him to teach them a lesson

God kills a man for not impregnating his sister-in-law

God comes out of the sky to kill David?s enemies

God allows babies to be dashed and pregnant women to be ripped open

God threatens to have wild animals carry away the Israelite?s children

God tells people to kill their loved ones if they worship other gods

Bible says beat your child with a rod

Bible says beating and wounding people is good for them

God promises to punish children for their parent?s sin

God terrifies and causes tumors

Jesus doesn?t allow a disciple to bury his dead father

God rewards Jacob for deceiving his dying father

????????????????????????-

Supposedly the people of Judah shouted and God helped them kill 1/2 million Israelites.

(2 Chr 13:15 NRSV) Then the people of Judah raised the battle shout. And when the people of Judah shouted, God defeated Jeroboam and all Israel before Abijah and Judah.

(2 Chr 13:16-18 NRSV) The Israelites fled before Judah, and God gave them into their hands. Abijah and his army defeated them with great slaughter; five hundred thousand picked men of Israel fell slain.

Thus the Israelites were subdued at that time, and the people of Judah prevailed because they relied on the LORD, the God of their ancestors.

On the next paragraph or point, I'll just have to give up, I honestly do not know what your saying or asking. To me you are just trying to argue what shade of gray the cat is.


This is the main issue, you seem to think that Christianity is not man made. I however do not believe that there is a religion that is NOT man made.

It's up to the moderators to lock thread or to define what is "out of line". These threads tend to spiral out of control for some people, the people who are on the sidelines are the ones who usually run to the mods to get things closed down.

You keep asking it, and I keep answering it. The fact that you cannot accept it seems to be the problem. The reality is that I do not define what I believe into a box with handles on it. I do not believe in what the main line religions sell as their gods and I do not agree and despise what humans tend to do in the names of their gods. I do not and will not give their gods a "free pass" as some people do. What tends to set me off is when history is ignored or excused based on people's belief systems. People want to delineate between the deaths and murder of past religious armies and today's deaths and murders over a belief system. To see any difference in the two or to deny the past is just a sham! Just as in any "recovery" program, a person has to admit that there is a problem to begin with. It seems to me that the quasi-religious cannot and will not even recognize their own religion's past evil and pain to other humans.

To me, this is the main problem with your choice of religions. When the main idea of the premise of the religion is that there is nothing on this earth that is good, and the only way to end up "good" is to die and hopefully end up somewhere else is just not too far removed (to me anyway) than the idea of the whole "72 virgins" promise from the other religion. To me any idea that says that you have to die to improve yourself or to get the big prize is just sad. You seem to see a difference in the these, I do not.

So why don't you answer the question, so that maybe you can bring something or an Idea to the table, other than a dislike for religious mumbo jumbo!

Again, this is obviously unanswerable/understandable to you. Deism if you can call that a religion and buddhism as a philisophy is what I'm closest to in a "belief" system. But I still do not lock myself (or society for that matter) into a locked box.

 

No one that I know of has declared that ego is a bad thing. The question was asked "how can god create and not enjoy" and my answer was 'because he has no ego". But I really don't think that debateiing the possibility of god having an ego is worth much discussion.

My overall point is that opposites do not need to exist and I believe science has proven that that is a fact.

"Particularly hard to reach"??!! HARD!!?? :lol: Well, yeah, because the universe would then not exist! And you're saying that a theoretical limit exists on one end and no limit on the other and these are opposites!?


You must not have read my post. The humanization of god is clearly part of the christian teaching....God's word, God's son, the hand of god, God smote, "The Lord's been good to me" (I just love that one), god's love...god's chosen people.........the list goes on and on and every one of them are misguided attempts by someone to dress up god in people clothes so that he may be addressed and reckoned with.

I say it was not.

 

I)
I don't think the second quote (which was posted first) is exactly an endorsement.

II)
Seems pretty important in the second quote to me. Period.

III)
The assumption of the truth of the conditions of the second quote assumes the first quote is incorrect.

IV)
Hmmm . . . I think we may be talking past each other here. Did you think I meant an entire universe existing at absolute zero? In that case it is indeed impossible (2nd law of thermodynamics.) I was speaking of a local event, such as in a laboratory. (Where, truth be told, it has never been reached either, but 20 billionths of a degree away is pretty darn close:
http://jilawww.colorado.edu/press/bose-ein.html)

V)
I'm saying that something that is finite ("limited") is the opposite of something that is infinite.

IV)
No, I read your post very carefully. I will refrain from accusing you of the same offense, no matter how tempting. If I understand the point of the above passage correctly, you are demonstrating that the Christian god is an anthropomorphized visualization of Judeo-Christian culture and philosophical thought. I agree, and said so, with the caveat that YOUR metaphysical philosophy is also an anthropomorphized visualization of YOUR culture and philosophical system:

Essentially I'm saying that my belief system is as good as yours, and that yours is as open to criticism as mine. If you find that offensive, then either you cannot conceive of bias within your worldview (or in your case, zeitgeist), or you are just being a bigot. Either way, Fozzy will be very upset with you.

Addendum: I don't really think you are a bigot or incapable of conceiving anything. I just couldn't resist the line about The Foz.