[Orange Andy]

To clear you up, funds are only purchased at the closing price of the day in which you place your buy order. So, when the index is swinging 1.5 to 3.0% a lot of days, buying on dips can put that % in your pocket. Something you cannot do when purchasing funds.

ETF's can be purchsed any time during the trading day, and with that, you have the option to buy with an open ended "limit-order". And specify the price you are willing to pay. Some days the dow will swing wildly early in the session, and you will get in very cheap.

A few days ago, the dow opened down 3.35%, or 438 points. Then within 30 minutes it rebounded sharply and was only down .75%, and closed the day down 1.2%

It is those dips that can benefit the ETF buyer, and not the fund buyer. And if you like funds for their diversity, the ETF offers TOTAL diversity in equities.

[no_worries]

To clear you up...

Was this directed at me? If so, thanks but I'm well versed on the mechanics on the difference between mutuals and ETFs. I was specifically asking you to clarify the quoted statements. In the first statement, you seem to imply that "black pool trading" is worse for mutual funds than it is for ETFs. In the second, you make a point of saying that "black pool trading" is especially bad for ETFs. Those seem to be contradictory statements.


Black or dark pools refers to trading that occurs out of the public eye on alternative exchanges. Most of this is done by institutional investors due to the difficulty they have executing large block trades on the public exchanges. Here's a basic example of what's involved. Say a Vanguard fund wants to buy 50,000 shares of Microsoft; they put in an order on an alternative exchange, say BIDS. A Fidelity fund wants to sell 50,000 shares and puts in a sell order. If the two sides can come together the trade is executed. Everything works essentially the same as on the public exchanges. The difference is that the details of this trade aren't publicly known. The trade isn't reflected in the price quotes you would get from the NYSE.

The arguments go both ways. Obviously, if there are trades occurring that aren't reflected in the public stock price, it calls the true accuracy of those quotes into question. Especially since the relative market share of these alternative exchanges has grown over the last 5 years. On the other hand, these exchanges only handle large block trades. Most of minimum trade limits of 40-50,000 shares. It's difficult, especially for small- or mid-cap stocks, to trade those kind of volumes on the public exchanges. So there's the matter of increased market efficiency. Personally, I doubt that these large institutions are trading at levels significantly different than public market prices...where is the incentive?

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

Are their trading costs lower by staying off the major exchanges?

[Orange Andy]

Let me try again, with ETF's I was reminding Rosty that with the volatility, be aware that you can see swings in the trading day, and you want to be on the right side, or use that volatility to your advantage. I did not say, nor did I mean to imply you are at a dis-advantage in ETF investing, due to the volatility.

Though I can see how my comment looked like I was saying that. I was not.

Fast typing on message boards, sometimes we do not take the essential time to re-read out text and evaluate how others may interpret.

And maybe you should help Rosty C. I tried.

[no_worries]

Many times. For instance, one of the platforms charges a flat $.02/share. That can be a significant discount when trading blocks of 50,000 shares.

[ncnewbie]

Merrick, sent you a PM

[merrick4]

Originally Posted by LOAD IT

Some say its the market. I say its too many people running trucking companies that dont drive trucks. Let the .80- 1.00 per mile freight sit on the east coast until it ROTS or RUSTS. Most trucks going EAST with customer freight are getting at least $2 pm +FSC, so $2.40 per mile. If they came all the way back empty now they are at $1.20 all miles and had great fuel mileage coming back. Or deadhead to Ohio then load for home/headhaul customer, still better than $1.20 + FSC on all miles. It doesnt take a mathematical genius or a logistical genius to figure it out. SAME goes for going into Florida.

I pulled up this quote by LOAD IT cause this has stuck in my head since I read it. I mean in the begining I believe even in this thread there was a spirited debate between Sonny and GMAN about whether it's better to come out with a cheap rate to "preserve the rate" or to just get great money going in and deadhead out.

I've kept that in my mind as I've been out here seeing things for myself. I just left Florida last week, I forget how much it was but it was real cheap, not too much more than a $1.00 a mile. I didn't really care as the guy got me that load, I was just coming back out and it felt good to get back in the truck. Also I was going to a good area and I had a good appointment time (I hate getting up early).

From there I went into Penn, to Altoona for $2.25 all miles and then deadheaded back to Hubbard, OH. Total miles for that with the dh was 873 which came to $1.83 all miles. That's with about 200 miles of deadhead (162 from final back to OH and there was 42 to pick up the load.)

There I sat for the weekend which was ok cause I needed to do a few things and then on Monday I got a load that picked up in Wheeling, WV which was 102 miles exactly of dh and then over to Gouldsboro, PA. Total miles on that was 367 loaded with 102 of deadhead so 469 total for $1150 wich comes to $2.45 per mile.

Actually I would have gotten more but I got confused and when he said Gouldsboro, I typed it into the GPS as it sounded and that brought up Goldsboro which unfortunatly was really a place so I lowballed what I would have asked for.

From there I posted my truck and as there is too many loads for too little trucks in the North East all I got was BS offers so I deadheaded out right back to Hubbard. Total miles on that was 330 which brought me down on the rate for total miles to $1.43 for 799 miles of which 432 were dh. And as I said I would have done better if I didn't make the mistake with the name of the town.

So for these two trips I have 1672 miles for $2750 which is $1.64 per mile and of the 1672 miles about 600 of them were dh.

Now if I add the load in from Florida that drops me but I came out way too low and didn't want to cause an issue with the guy who got me the load.

Yes I could have come out of PA with a $1.00 a mile freight and preserved the rate but I hate that feeling I get hauling that cheap sh*t. But to be honest even coming out of Florida that cheap I still did $4150 for the week which is close to my goal of $4500 a week. So there is merit in taking the cheap to a good area but I just hate doing that. It's a good feeling riding empty and not pulling on the truck hard.

I usually post my truck on the way in case someone calls. I did get one call and this guy wanted to give me $450 for 150 loaded miles. I told him no and he got mad. I told him I am not dh all the way out of PA (it was still about 50 miles into PA) to get a load for $450 and tie up the truck for the day. I wanted to get here to Hubbard tonight and be ready to go tomorrow. He was rude but then called back an hour or so later all nice asking if I changed my mind. I hadn't. I would have done it for $600.

One thing of all this deadheading is I lose a day in driving back to Ohio. Actually I might have gotten back early enough to get a load but it was an all day affair with this snow. Brutal. I hate driving in the snow. In a car I never cared but in a truck it's a scary thing for me.

Saw numerous trucks jacknifed. It's an ugly sight that is. Kind of like seeing an elephant on it's side. They are big graceful animals so it's sad to see them like that. (kind of like back in the day watching big Andre the Giant getting knocked out and having his head shaved). Trucks just aren't supposed to be on their side.

Plenty of cars too. Anyway half way back and my computer is not getting juice from the inverter. So I pull over to find out what's going on. Then all of a sudden my truck and trailer abs lights on the dash go on. So I come to a stop and turn the truck off and back on (hey it works with computers) then the mileage on the dash isn't showing. Then the volts go up to 15 so I pull into a T/A and have them check it out.

They figured when I described it that it was the alternator which was fine by me as that's still under warranty. So they check it out and the problem is now gone. No idea what happened but they charged me $89 to check the electrical system. That sucked.

By the way, I started sliding a bit so I locked the diff axel. Anyone know if I can drive with that thing locked? I did it anyway but I think I heard you weren't supposed to do that.

So anyway where I delivered to in PA was right next to a huge Sears DC. I tried to get the phone number cause I figure what the hell I'll just call them up and try and get a load. Couldn't find the number. I mean I suppose if I sat there for a while but the computer was slow. I even went onto monster.com and looked under the jobs as that place was new and I found old listings for jobs there but when I clicked the links they said the job is no longer listed.

So I called the broker I just did the load for and told him about the DC to see what he'd say. Glad I did. He said they (TQL) doesn't do too much of that high dollar freight. I was surprised but he said most carriers have only $100,000 in liability and they would be in for what's left which could add up. He said they can buy what's called "spike insurance" I think was what he said, but it's expensive.

I was pretty surprised by that. TQL in a very short time has gotten quite big ( I read the history of the owner) so I figured at the level they are they could go for the big dollar freight which would be an advantage over the 1000's of small time brokers that can't afford the spike insurance. I mean if they are that big they ought to take advantage of that.

He agreed and said they do do a bit of higher dollar freight but the claims can be huge.

It got me thinking though, it would be good to look for that hight dollar freight, cut down on the competition. I noticed a lot of Warner and Schneider trucks there. I guess they have the money but they also have these company drivers that are quitting every other day so who knows.

Of course me with one truck isn't going to snag that but something to aim for anyway.

Well that's all I guess. I made the mistake of checking in when I got to final last night. My appointment wasn't til 7:30am which means I could have parked and went to sleep. But I checked in just to see what's going on (pumped the guard for some info on the area He was the one who actually told me about the Sears) and then a couple of hours later (3:30AM) they called me to back in to a door so I was basically up all night. Emptied by 6AM or so then just went to the staging area and slept.

Hey ncnewbie, I got your PM I appreciate it and will get back to you in a day or so. I just want to go shower now and go to bed. Just wanted to write some of these thoughts as they were fresh in my head.

[RostyC]

Update? what cha been doing lately?

[Red Clay Rambler]

Yes, Merrick, you can drive in slippery conditions with your inter-axle locked in, that's one of it's purposes.

[sidman82]

Where's Merrick :?: