[DaveP]

Originally Posted by MichiganDriver

As you know, I don't know diddly about guns except that there are just too many. But hearing conservatives talk about it reminds me of the expression "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". More guns can't be the solution to having too many guns.

What I would love to see is people using their gun expertise to be constructive in this debate. Surely there are guns out there that serve no purpose at all except for killing people. Why not identify which guns those are and suggest they be outlawed? If conservatives played their cards right they could come out winners here. But we live in the real world and we know that won't happen. I have no doubt that lunatic fringe radio is trying to convince everyone that the boogie man is hiding under their beds and will take all their guns when they fall asleep.

So I guess my best advice for cons is to keep listening to lunatic fringe radio (and tv). Hey, it's working out great for cons so far.

What part of "Criminals do not follow laws" do you have a hard time wrapping your head around?

[MichiganDriver]

Originally Posted by DaveP

What part of "Criminals do not follow laws" do you have a hard time wrapping your head around?

And what part of it shouldn't be this freaking easy for a lunatic to buy an assault rifle do you have a hard time wrapping your head around? Not everyone has easy access to black market gun shops. By making it HARDER (not impossible but H.A.R.D.E.R) we can stop SOME of the killings. Nobody's coming after your hunting rifle. Unless of course your idea of sport is to use some fancy zillion rounds a second gun to bag a deer.

[DaveP]

I do not own high capacity firearms to deer hunt (I prefer bow and arrow). I own them to ,hopefully at least, level the playing field against those who may wish to deprive me, my family, or my neighbors (This includes YOU. You should thank me and the millions of other law abiding and like-minded Americans) of life and liberty.

Those people and those weapons are out there and they ARE NOT going away because somebody decides to pass some laws. I understand the concept of "fight fire with fire".

[GMAN]

Have you ever wondered why Russia or China have not launched nuclear missiles at the U.S.? It is because we have nuclear missiles that could destroy them. No predator will attack someone or a country that can defend itself. During both WWI and WWII, Germany invaded countries that were not capable of defending themselves. It was not until Britain and America got into the fight that things began to turn around. Poland was invaded and taken over in days by a superior German military force. Russia invaded and took over many countries in the so called eastern bloc due to their superior military capability. You are probably too young to remember the Cuban Missile Crisis, but I remember it as though it was yesterday. Russia had put missiles in Cuba. We were close to having a global nuclear war. Had Russia not blinked, Kennedy would have launched nuclear missiles at Russia and we might not be talking right now.

I really wish that the media would report more on the lives that have been saved by those owning guns rather than the isolated incidents where they can sensationalize murders, such as what happened in Connecticut. We should not even need a permit to carry a gun. Requiring citizens to get a permit is a fairly recent law that does nothing to prevent criminals from acquiring weapons.

We have had drug laws on the books for decades. Yet, we have millions who find a way to acquire illegal drugs. There are more people using drugs today than 30 or 40 years ago. Back then, it was more recreational, such as marijuana. It was rare to find people using cocaine or heroin. Today, there are more people using drugs than ever, but we have more laws against using them. Our prisons are full of people who's only crime was taking drugs. Apparently, these laws are not working. Criminals will take what they want unless law abiding citizens stop them. We have a local police department that is very quick about responding, when called. But, a criminal could break down my door, kill or rob me and be gone before law enforcement could arrive. I would much rather deal with it myself and have the police clean up after. Criminals prey on the defenseless. They are bullies. They will never attack someone who can defend themselves. Every school has a bully. He only stops being a bully when confronted by someone who is willing to stand up to him.

It is rare for the police to have the time to get to the victims before a crime has been committed. They can try to catch those responsible after the fact, but at that point the victims have already been robbed, assaulted or killed. I have been in a situation where I had to show force in order to protect myself and family. I won't go into details on a public forum, but being able to demonstrate to the perpetrator that you are willing to inflict great harm on him does act as a deterrent. Perpetrators prey on the weak, not the strong.

Our right to bear arms was put into our Constitution more for our protection from the government, than those wanting to hurt us. The government has been trying to disarm American citizens for decades. Some may not want to see what is going on around them, but we are a nation in distress. I feel like hanging my American flag upside down. It is not a matter of disrespect, but distress. To some of us, it is simple. Perhaps we look at things differently in the South than in the North. After all, we have seen first hand what happens when the federal government sends troops to invade and attack private citizens. We had an invading army in the South for 4 years. We still bear the scars from that invasion. It is just one more reason why we will never give up our means to defend ourselves.

[RebelDarlin]

Originally Posted by MichiganDriver

And what part of it shouldn't be this freaking easy for a lunatic to buy an assault rifle do you have a hard time wrapping your head around? Not everyone has easy access to black market gun shops. By making it HARDER (not impossible but H.A.R.D.E.R) we can stop SOME of the killings. Nobody's coming after your hunting rifle. Unless of course your idea of sport is to use some fancy zillion rounds a second gun to bag a deer.

And what part of the majority of these nuts didn't BUY these guns...they STOLE them do you not understand! Passing another gun law isn't going to change or stop that. It will only affect law abiding citizens.

If you really don't know anything about guns or current gun laws please educate yourself instead of just parroting the MSM. I understand that when something horrible happens we feel the need to fix thing, but another knee jerk gun law isn't going to change anything. We are somehow failing these young people and it isn't just because of our right to bear arms.

[MichiganDriver]

RD - I doubt most guns are stolen but if that's what you care to believe then who am I to argue? And why should I?

I agree that we're failing our young people. It's the level of fear in this country. Politicians use fear to sell their message to us. The media uses fear to get us to tune in. Advertisers use fear to get us to buy their products. Police departments and other interested parties fudge crime statistics to enlarge their budgets. Crime numbers are exaggerated so much that parents are too scared to let their kids be kids anymore. There's a direct correlation between the number of guns in a country and the number of shootings. Reduce the number of guns and you reduce the number of shootings. It's worked elsewhere.

I'm going to butt out and let y'all kick your groupthink into gear without this lib getting in the way. Cheers.

[RebelDarlin]

Originally Posted by MichiganDriver

RD - I doubt most guns are stolen but if that's what you care to believe then who am I to argue? And why should I?

I agree that we're failing our young people. It's the level of fear in this country. Politicians use fear to sell their message to us. The media uses fear to get us to tune in. Advertisers use fear to get us to buy their products. Police departments and other interested parties fudge crime statistics to enlarge their budgets. Crime numbers are exaggerated so much that parents are too scared to let their kids be kids anymore. There's a direct correlation between the number of guns in a country and the number of shootings. Reduce the number of guns and you reduce the number of shootings. It's worked elsewhere.

I'm going to butt out and let y'all kick your groupthink into gear without this lib getting in the way. Cheers.

MD...I mean the last couple of nuts that went on shooting sprees stole the guns they didn't buy them. The Oregon shooter stole the gun from a friend, the guy in Conn. stole his mothers guns. They aren't buying them so changing or passing laws isn't going to stop them.

[golfhobo]

Interesting article. I'm only halfway or mostly through it. I suppose I will have some comments.... I'm home all week.

Interesting discussion so far, too. Three points...

1) The VATECH shooter (who had a history of Psych problems that were not ALLOWED to be known)... bought his guns over the internet (IIRC) and had them shipped to a local gun shop. Don't guess there are ANY possible legal remedies for THAT, eh?

2) When was the last time anyone heard of someone "stealing" something that wasn't there to be stolen?

3) Gun free zones do not preclude CCW in those areas by contract or otherwise.

I might surprise some of you with the comments I have about the article.

[GMAN]

The problem is not the guns or number of guns, but some of the people who have gained access to them. Many have stolen them. It isn't uncommon for those who commit crimes with guns, to have stolen them. Putting guns in a safe might help deter some of those thieves, but not all. Most people who own guns want to have them accessible when and if they are needed. Gun free zones do not allow those with CCW to carry on the property.

I have mixed feelings about anyone's psychological records being accessed by anyone other than the doctor or individual. Most of those who have killed had a history of mental illness that was not addressed at an earlier age. It doesn't make any difference how many guns people own. Guns are not the problem. They are the excuse that those on the radical left use to justify more restrictive gun legislation. If you look at where most of these horrific crimes were committed, it is in areas where gun laws are the most restrictive. Chicago is virtually a gun free zone and had more than 10 times the number of children murdered than they did in Connecticut. New York is another example of a state and city that has the most restrictive gun laws, yet they have one of the highest crime rates in the country.

If you go to states that have the least restrictive gun laws, you find that crime is down significantly over states with the most restrictive gun laws. A good example is Kennesaw, Georgia. The city requires all households have a gun. Their gun crime is virtually non existent. Personally, I don't think that anyone should be required to pay for a CCW when the right is guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment. However, we do have a problem with violence in this country. I think that it is more of a problem of moral decay. There are those who are mentally deranged. I don't think that a sane person can commit such atrocities against defenseless children. Liberal social policies are responsible for the maim and destruction we see in our schools. Parents risk jail time or losing their children if they discipline them. Teachers are not allowed to discipline those left in their care. I do think that part of the problem is some of the violent video games. In recent years we have seen children killing other children with knives and by strangulation along with guns. A gun doesn't aim, point and shoot itself. We need to address the real problem for this violence. When children are disciplined, taught values and given attention, they usually turn out as decent human beings. You can't leave children to raise themselves and expect them to run out as good people.

When the reason for the death of children happens by any other means as guns, we look at the people responsible, not an inanimate object. If someone kills another person with a car, we don't blame the car. We hold the individual responsible. But, with guns, some assume that they have a will or mind of their own and the person who pulls the trigger is not responsible. Frankly, it defies logic. Limiting the number of bullets or certain types of guns that are available to private citizens, won't solve the problem. It may make a few people feel that they have done something to help, but they are only fooling themselves. They also don't know what an assault rifle is when they discuss these guns. An AR 15 is NOT an assault rifle. All guns can kill, but the radical left shows an AR 15 and calls it an assault rifle. It isn't.

[repete]

[QUOTE=MichiganDriver;521322]. Why not identify which guns those are and suggest they be outlawed? If conservatives played their cards right they could come out winners here. QUOTE]

A few years ago the FBI did a study about voilent crime and the where the offender got his gun. I don't remember how many jail birds they asked but I do remember that ONLY ONE had a legally owned weapon, the rest were stolen. The most common fire arm used in crime? Is a hand gun NOT the "assault weapon" that so called assault weapon has become the boogie man, it's just something to put the blame on that can't talk back. With over 20,000 gun laws on the books and more every day, do you really think a few more will make a differance?
The Sandy Hook shooting , do you think if that dirtbag didn't have that AR then the shooting wouldn't have happened? He would've just used the shotgun and handguns he had. You know the guns he stole from his mother AFTER KILLING her and then carried into a GUN FREE zone and FORCED his way into the school and then committed murder after murder. He had his mind set on killing and went to the school KNOWING that no one there could stop him.
I just had a nephew here with his kids, the kids wanted to see my gun room. They have never seen any guns up close so I took them on a "tour". The first thing I did was teach them the old NRA Eddy Eagle saying Re; what to do when you find a gun.
#1 STOP!
#2 DON'T TOUCH
#3 LEAVE THE AREA
#4 TELL AN ADULT
(As simple as that is do know that LOTS of people do not want that taught in schools?)
We then went thru basic fire arm safety and I let them handle some of them. Thier curiosity satisfied they left. Did I contamanate thier little minds or did I possible prevent a tragady?

OH yeay MD no such thing as "guns except that there are just too many" Think of all the jobs they create