[RebelDarlin]

Originally Posted by Midnight Flyer

:cry: It was six years ago today that the world as we know it was changed forever. Whatever you're doing today, wherever you're going guys and gals hug someone you love and say a prayer in remembrance of those who were lost on that terrible day. :cry:

Why does something like this ALWAYS get high-jacked and turned into a BS political thread? :evil:

[Goin Fer It]

Originally Posted by RebelDarlin

Why does something like this ALWAYS get high-jacked and turned into a BS political thread? :evil:

RebelDarlin,

You are right and I will no longer post on this thread as it should be left for what it was. It was not my intent to have this become a political thread. I only wanted to agree with something that someone else had wrote regarding their views of bipartisanship. Maybe I should have done it in a private PM in order to avoid what had happened.

Sorry it ended up the way it did!

Goin Fer It's Wife

[Fredog]

[Bunny]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ervaMPt4Ha0

[Midnight Flyer]

Originally Posted by Bunny

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ervaMPt4Ha0

THAT IS AN AWESOME VIDEO! To all who have or are serving our country we love you and are very proud of you. :cry:

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by GMAN

There is much that I don't agree with the direction of this country. We seem to forget history. It is naive to think that everything that has been happening is the total responsibility of one individual. There are many accomplices, including previous administrations. Congress has bloody hands, as well. Everyone seems to want to blame Bush and not take any responsibility themselves. All they seem to be interested in is staying in power and pointing their fingers at anyone but themselves. I think both parties are pushing this country in the wrong direction. While stating that they are doing everything they can to secure our borders while encouraging illegals to come into this country.

Gman, I tend to agree with most of what you said. I realize that most recent administrations share some of the blame, as do both parties. But, as the phrase I highlighted seems to point to ME, I want to clarify and expound.

First, I believe that there are larger powers at work behind Dubya. Call it the M/I/C or the Trilateral Commission or Cheney's Gang or whatever. He is not smart enough to create such carnage by himself!

But, I would be slower to point the finger at him, IF he wasn't SO obstinate about everything. He has made it clear, since his "ascension to the throne" that HE knows what is best, and he will NOT suffer advisement from anyone!

He all but dismissed CIA Director Tennent (sp?) for not giving him the intelligence report he wanted confirming WMD's in Iraq.

He had his military advisors draw up invasion plans for Iraq MONTHS before 9/11. (in fact, IMMEDIATELY after taking office!)

He has "relieved of Command" top Generals in Iraq who didn't confirm HIS story of the needs/assessments.

He has defied the FISA courts, because he says he "needs" illegal wiretapping.... instead of just suggesting we "modify" the law!

He stood by his Attorney General, because HE supported his illegal actions.

He has continued to abuse the National Guard and even the military concerning deployment terms, rather than raise an adequate army through the draft.

He has refused to "rollback" tax CUTS given to the wealthiest of Americans at a time when the war is depleting our financial resources, and leaving the bill to be paid by future administrations (probably Democratic... since THEN he and other GOP members can blame the tax hikes on them!)

The list goes on and on! I tire of even listing his abuses!

I understand your point, but THIS time, I believe it IS "in context" to blame this ONE individual for MUCH of what is going wrong with (and IN) America today!

I said it before, and I'll repeat it. Bush feels that his FATHER was blamed for not getting Saddam (though he had NO mandate... and "I" believe he did the right thing!) He also has seen his father's face trampled on as it was embedded as a mosaic in front of Saddam's Foreign Ministry (or some building.) He has taken UMBRAGE to these facts, and vowed REVENGE against Saddam. I STRONGLY believe that the Iraq war was "Personal" to Dubya!! For someone who SAYS he doesn't listen to POLLS, he has "waffled" with the wind as concerns his REASONS for invading Iraq! As soon as ONE reason was debunked.... he initiated "talking points" claiming some OTHER reason as his basis for the WAR!!

He is a tyrant who will NOT compromise with anyone who stands in the way of his "legacy." His actions don't fit his words, and he changes his words as necessary to support his actions!

I may have some Liberal leanings, but I am basically a Conservative Democrat. I WANT a strong leader.... and I must applaud SOME of his attributes. But.... I can smell BullSh!t from a mile away.... and this president is FULL of it!!

Hobo

[golfhobo]

GFIW said:

The globalist and one-world kooks are the ones that are for Hemispheric Integration. The silly peaceniks believe that by Integrating it Will Save Us. What silly childish notion considering that it has not worked anywhere else where the countries have Integrated.

Usually the peaceniks and such will generally deny it is happening (Hemispheric Integration), and then insult others with silly childish insults. Next they attempt to use the fear factor to convince others that it is necessary.

And maybe the only reason it all the free world has left is because it hasn't integrated yet!

As usual, the argument that followed this post is due to a lack of comprehension. Someone doesn't UNDERSTAND the point being made by one poster, but attacks them based on incorrect information.

Hmmm..... sounds kinda like Dubya and the War on Iraq!! :lol:


But, my question for GFIW is this: What example are you referring to where "hemispeheric integration" failed?

Perhaps, "I" don't understand what you are saying, but I think of NATO as a success. I think the Organization of African States (OAS) has had SOME success (with limited resources.) The United Kingdom (with a little help from us) defended themselves against Hitler with a "union" of Scots, Irish and English. And many Slavic countries would still be sheepherders if not for the USSR.

I understand what Fozzy is saying. I don't like the idea of a "hemispheric" economy or workforce, but I agree that the Western Hemisphere is SOMEWHAT free of the Islamic threat at the moment, and stronger "cooperation" should be encouraged (though maintaining sovereignty) to keep this half of the world Democratic.

I ALSO understand what YOU are saying! I believe strong economic and political cooperation is important in the Western Hemisphere, but I am NOT for a completely OPEN border arrangement where we become ONE country.

Fozzy is a very intelligent person, and MUCH of what he says makes sense. The REST is just to make some of you think!

GFIW is also a very intelligent person, but you seem to "parrot" OTHER'S ideas to the point that SOME might think you are "beguiled" by them. In other words, you sound "conspiracy paranoid" by not just giving your OWN thoughts on certain issues.

The "diversity of thought" is an American attribute that we should neither scorn nor isolate. It is, after all, our most BASIC freedom. We are ALL sometimes too quick to label others as "lemmings," simply because they are not following OUR OWN train of thought.

There is MUCH wisdom in the old saying that, "United we stand... divided we fall." United does not mean "lockstep." But, as Wildk9 said: We are ALL Americans FIRST!

Many of those who died on 9/11, were not even Americans! They certainly weren't ALL Republicans or All Democrats! Some were even Muslims! Certainly ALL weren't Christians.

But, they ALL died at the hands of an "integrated" force of radical Muslims from different countries! But, that does not mean ALL Muslims are bad. Those 19 were Jihadists! Dogmatists! Fascists! LEMMINGS!

Not since the days of Hitler, has it become so apparent that the most destructive force in the World, is the surrender of individual thought!

Of course, Fozzy might point out.... and I would concur..... that this SAME individual "failing" befell the Crusaders, and ALL who subjugate personal responsibility to some "higher, imaginary power."

Hobo

[Fozzy]

So once again, the US is evil and needs to be destroyed... :roll: We deserve to be wiped off the face of the map...Bin Ladin should be elected to be the president of the US...

IF (we haven't) reached the point where the this type of cloak and dagger nonsense of the president attacking the country flourish... I say WE DESERVE DEATH as a nation.

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by Goin Fer It

While I do not believe everything that is being put out there and some things I believe are being suggested just to distract from the truth I do believe our government with the sophisticated intelligence should have known that the twin towers would be hit again.

I do not believe that our intelligence was so lame that they would not be watchful of ME persons from terrorist countries coming into this country going to flight schools would not have any background check or have any background on them.

One thing maybe you can answer for me that I still have not heard an answer to is why there were not any airforce jets scrambled out as there were when the golfer had his cabin de-pressurize. I remember that and watching the jets fly each one on the side of his plane on the television and it took no time at all to scramble them.

Another thing why did they not take specific intelligence and information from David Shippers when he first attempted to give to them. Why did they not take what seemed to be viable important information regarding terrorist.

No, I do not believe everything I hear from either the government or other people while I believe that there are some wild far fetched theories out there I at times believe that the official government version is just as far fetched.

Goin Fer It's Wife

GFIW: First, let me point out that Yoopr misunderstood YOUR statement, and said something about them being hit again before they were rebuilt. Obviously.... YOU were referring to them being hit "again" after the 93 attempt by Ramzi Youssef (sp?) There was NO plan to hit them again before they were rebuilt after 9/11!

I also want to point out that the "current" head of the 9/11TruthMovement, is a KOOK of the highest order, who I have dealt with on another site. He and his ilk, make me ashamed to call myself a Democrat! They are SO against Bush, that they will go to any lengths to accuse him of complicency in the events of that fateful day! They talk in circles, make up facts, and abuse the laws of science. They are NOT to be believed in the least!

Now, as a former member of our Intelligence services, maybe I can answer some of your questions. I have listed my credentials before, (to my ultimate embarrassment,) but suffice it to say that I was PERSONALLY listening in during the "engagement" between Israel and Syria over the skies of Lebanon in 78 or 79 (I forget which,) and I was PERSONALLY assigned to the NSA. After leaving the A.F., I served as a civilian contractor PERSONALLY monitoring (by satellite) the activities of ALL Middle Eastern countries (and others.) I had a higher clearance than all but a handfull in Congress.

Our intelligence services are the finest in the World! Our resources are on the cutting edge. Our people are no less dedicated than the soldiers on the front in Iraq! We are the BEST!!

But, beauracratic tape is very THICK!! For years, (and STILL) there is much that is lost "in the translation" between those who monitor and collect, and those who are tasked with reading and deciding.

As a result of hijacking events that had all but subsided for years prior, MANY of the names of the 9/11 hijackers WERE on "watch lists," but those in power had little or no idea what to do with the information. Terrorism occurs in "waves" and the hijacking wave had long since subsided, and Americans in positions of responsibility had become "sleepy." Our concentration had become fixed on plots to bomb Embassies on foreign soil. We had also become more concerned with monitoring Nuclear prolification. The "arms race" of the 70's and 80's had taken the lead.

As you noted, the FBI DID their job, and identified suspected activities. However, there was some idiot with a "G" rating who superceded them. It is said that there was no communication between agencies. Perhaps, at THAT level, that was true. However, I am here to tell you that at OUR level, the FBI, CIA, DIA and every other top intel division of our government, was "memoed" on everything we collected! What the leaders of those agencies did with the info, is now part of the public record!

Our government has gotten TOO BIG and cumbersome! People went to sleep collecting their paychecks and going on junkets! The world's problems were just a "scenario" of future possibilities. NO ONE actually thought anyone (like UBL) would have the guts to DO ANYTHING! :roll:

IF anyone got a "whiff" of such a plan, he would not have been taken TOO seriously! Someone would have listened, but not enough people would have! The sheer volume of intel collected everyday is astounding! If some peon made such a claim, some bureaucrat over him would think he was grandstanding! It's not the fault of the technology or the agents. It's just the SYSTEM of "big government."

As for the response of our Air Defense forces on that day: It was BY THE BOOK! Well.... sort of! Again, those in charge, both at Norad AND another "agency" who gets in the middle. [NEADS] I think it's called.... were confused, baffled, and in total disbelief. They followed their "Order of Battle" which was outdated, and scrambled aircraft from both National Guard and active military units. Unfortunately, they were "programmed" to expect an attack from Soviet aircraft or missiles from the SEA, and therefore.... they flew OUT TO SEA to meet them! They were NOT expecting an attack launched from our OWN AIRPORTS!

By the time the cumbersome Air Traffic Control system identified the suspect aircraft, our fighters were "out of position" to respond. But, even if they HAD been there, they did NOT have shoot down orders!! This was a TOTAL failure of our Air Defense system, but it starts at the TOP! America was, as it was on Dec 7th, a "sleeping Giant!"

There is PLENTY of blame to go around! And SOME must be borne even by the citizens of America, who had gotten so "fat, dumb and happy" with their fast cars and high paying jobs, that they forgot to MONITOR the condition of our government's defense policies.

The "short" of it is..... following the end of the Cold War, America had begun to "step down" its defenses against a "recognized" threat from the USSR. However, our Battle Orders were still designed in that direction. As a nation, we were a bit "confused," and unsure. Even a bit "unconcerned."

Reagan had brought the Soviet threat to a halt! Bush Sr. had shown the world that America had the finest military on the planet. Clinton presided over the best economy in decades, and espoused diplomacy and benevolence.

NO ONE SAW THIS COMING!!! They caught us during a "shift change!" That just happens at times with our form of government!

Achilles was considered the mightiest of all Greek warriors, but he had a FLAW! It's known as the Achilles Heel. Something all his strength and armor could not protect him against! WE had one, too!! And to his credit, that bastard UBL was smart enough to FIND it!!

The sad thing is NOT that we were "vulnerable" to a single successful attack! But that, as a result, we were "goaded" into a response that has helped the enemy to recruit millions more warriors than they would have otherwise, caused us to totally "destabilize" an entire region of the World, driven oil prices through the roof... hurting our OWN economy, while propping up that of the enemy, alienated nearly EVERY moderate Democratic government in the World, ruined our reputation as a peaceloving nation, and allowed our "leader," under the guise of National Security, to abridge the Constitutional Rights of our own people! And, to top it all off, he has us fighting amongst ourselves more than EVER before!

Krushchev once claimed he would "bury" America without even firing a shot! He was WRONG!! But, he was a leader of a SuperPower! What makes us think OUR leader can't be WRONG???

UBL, has brought us to our knees with ONLY one shot! It is out of the FEAR that he might have a second bullet, that our President has all but declared Martial Law in this country! UBL has done MORE to ruin this country than Kruschev ever DREAMED of! (with the help of Dubya!)

But, I digress! :lol:

I was about to ask you what "monitoring Israeli Intelligence" meant, but you cleared that up. MANY people and organizations, (even some within our OWN intelligence services) "monitor" NEWS REPORTS for bits and pieces of "Intelligence," and a few scraps of real INTEL are gathered that way. But, get a grip. Without access to REAL "top secret" Intel, these people are just "conjecturing."

For one thing, neither Israel NOR the United States, would allow an Arab citizen, EVEN if they were Jewish, to have anything CLOSE to "full access" to any real military INTEL! Your original statement "implied" otherwise. Not Happening! She, at BEST, was reading newspapers and public records to assimilate tidbits of policy for an independant "think tank." Have you ever heard the term "for Public Consumption?" During WWII, and ever since, governments have "planted" things in the public domain, JUST for people like THIS to "discover."

NO ONE, except the United States intelligence service personnel... with the HIGHEST of clearances.... has the ability to "monitor" actual Israeli Intelligence communiques! Trust me!

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by Fozzy

So once again, the US is evil and needs to be destroyed... :roll: We deserve to be wiped off the face of the map...Bin Ladin should be elected to be the president of the US...

IF (we haven't) reached the point where the this type of cloak and dagger nonsense of the president attacking the country flourish... I say WE DESERVE DEATH as a nation.

Good Morning, Fozzy!! I'm not sure which of my responses you based this response on. (As it fits NEITHER of them,) I will assume you just woke up Cranky!! :lol:

I don't think the U.S. is EVIL, but there is historical precedence for even the GREATEST of nations, and most noblest of purposes, to disappear from the Earth.

There is ALSO historical evidence of a U.S. President "attacking the Constitution" and therefore the nation.

Our nation was founded upon a revolution of the People against a Government that was "attacking" the people! So, it is NOT so far fetched that it could happen again.

Of course, your VOTE for Bin Laden is registered! Personally, I don't think he'd know what to DO with such a great nation IF he somehow managed to overtake it! GREATER men than HE "HAD" control of it and lost it!

Futhermore, I don't think he WANTS it! He just wants it out of HIS BACKYARD!

But, you bring up an interesting point. What WOULD be the nature of the World without the U.S. as a major power IN IT?? What if England prevailed once again? Or Russia? Or China?

Are YOU prepared to live under THEIR "leadership?"

No.... I think it is best for US to rule the World! But, I don't believe that necessarily implies OCCUPATION. I prefer the role of LEADERSHIP!

I ALSO believe that cultures should be allowed to live their OWN way, WITHOUT our constant interference! Face it. We don't "interfere" much in Africa, because they don't have OIL! Nor do they have alot of JEWS!

Let's see..... (getting back to your statement,) .... If we get to the point that our "Government" is attacking the people, we should just roll over and be wiped off the face of the planet?? MY ancestors didn't believe so! They felt that the "government" of the time (that of the King of England,) was NOT serving the interests of the citizens of this NEW country, so they went to WAR against him!

If they had not WON that war, we'd all be British citizens! YOU may want to kiss the Queens butt, but..... not ME!!! And, perhaps YOU are "smarter" than our founding fathers who wrote that....

When in the course of Human events, it becomes necessary....to dissolve the political bonds.... and to assume among the powers of the Earth, the separate and equal station..... entitle(d) them....a decent respect.... of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

That whenever Any form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government.

But, when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it their right, it their duty, to throw off such Government.

No.... there was a TIME when we, as a nation, faced obliteration and inexistence.... but the RADICALS among us stood UP.... and paid the price..... and secured the Nation for our Posterity! We were not afraid to Speak, Act and Fight for our rights as FREE PEOPLE!

And in doing so.... we secured the rights of the weak, landowners, who thought themselves privileged and superiour to us, (and sided with the British) and who would later use these rights to exploit us.

But, Hey! We are benevolent, and we don't hold this weakness against them! :lol: But, we know who are the real MEN in America!

P.S: I don't HAVE a son deploying to fight a useless war in Iraq. But, I DO have a great great grandfather who DIED defending America from the British during the Revolutionary War! And contrary to the PUBLIC opinion.... it was THAT WAR that "secured" our rights and freedoms as a new Nation!

Nevertheless, I honor the sacrifice of ALL American troops who have given (or MIGHT give) their lives to give OTHERS the same freedoms! .... Whether they have the CONSTITUTION to want it, or NOT!

I only hope that YOUR son is blessed with the opportunity to return home to a country that MATTERS, when his service is done. And that he sires you many grandsons!

Hobo