Obeying the speed limit, etc. (Religious Overtones)

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#21

01-16-2007 06:10 AM by Useless

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truckfam
Quote:
Originally Posted by Useless

As I said, it is because of people who think as you do that I do not wish to be called a Christian.
I'll tell you it is hard, very hard to put Christianity in a good light knowing I'm going to mess up somewhere. I'm going to do something wrong, put my foot in my mouth. Knowing someone, somewhere, someday is going to say that about me also.

Please don't look at all Christians like that, or think the gospel is messed up because we mess it up by our behavior or what we say. I'm imperfect, and to be held to perfect standards is the is the weight that will chrush any Christian especially me.

I don't look at all Christians as I do Chapchap. It's just that people with his mental and (so-called) "spiritual" framework are all too wrapped up in their own myopic sense of self righteousness for me to want to be identified with them.

The other problem that I have is that "Christians" like that are so ready and willing to judge me!!Up untill late last Summer, my hair was grown about 1/2 way down my back; now, I live in a very ultra-conservative area, and I amazed at how pepple who never knew me could so quickly formulate their opinions of me based upon my long hair and my beard.

Yeah, they were the "good Christian" types as well!! They were very quick to judge me, but felt no reason to exanine their own lives. Because of some of the philanthropic work that I do, I had occassion to see some of what goes on behind their closed doors, when they think that "nobody's looking"!!

In the back of my head, I would hear the theme song from the movie "Billy Jack" playing in my head.

"Go ahead and hate your nieghbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend,
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end,
There won't be any trumpets blowing,
Come The Judgement Day,
On the bloody morning after,
One Tin Soldier rides away"

I appreciate you posting on the story of Oskar Schindler. Actually, he was a wealthy industrialist, who owned the company that manufactured the defective ammunition.

There is one other thing that merits pointing out, and that is that he was able to funnel them from the concentration camp to his factory, and by paying millions of dollars in bribe money to the SS, he was able to smuggle many of those Jews out and deliver them to freedom. Over 1200 Jews were delivered to freedom because of him. In the end, it wound up costing him everything he had financially, and he was never able to rebuild. He died penniless.

Now, there can be no doubt that he had some serious character flaws. I try to live the life of a decent human being, but in the eyes of God and Heaven, compared to Mr. Schindler, I do not believe that I would stand very tall at all.

I truly believe that he won an important victory for mankind, and an equally important victory for The Glory of God!!

So, "It's either one or the other", is it???

So, if that's the case, then......What were the words that Jesus spoke in His Sermon On The Mount???

"Whatsoever you do for the least of my brother, that you will have done unto me"!! ......doesn't quite fit, does it??

Peace to you and yours, Truckfam!!

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#22

01-16-2007 01:27 PM by Roadhog

Re: Obeying the speed limit, etc. (Religious Overtones)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chapchap70
Cutting to the chase, I was at a bible study the other night and we were discussing legalism/libertine which both are considered wrong.

I relayed an event where I was driving years ago behind a person who was going 30 in a 30. Since I was churched basically my whole life, I figured this guy was probably a Christian since most people don't care about stuff like the speed limit. I thought to myself "legalist".

After honest reflection, the only "bad" thing this person did was to be in my way and I was the only one that was wrong.

I asked if they considered strictly obeying the speed limit to be legalism. (I guess I know how to stir the pot. :twisted: )

The elder leading the study thinks that it is more important to move with the flow of traffic so people do not do crazy things to get around you. He says that it is easy for conservative minded people to fall into the trap of do's and don'ts but we are supposed to be "in the spirit" and obey the spirit of the law.

What do you (especially those who would not set foot in a church except for a wedding/funeral) think of both lines of reasoning?
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Why are you spiraling this thread into a straight on full blown religious debate? If this thread were a speed limit sign...y'all are driving recklessly and way over the limit...with no clear line of sight. Next step is road rage and someone hitting the brakes on a tailgaiter...and causing a slight bump...then whining about how they are now a victim of your insane behavior.

I made bold print of what I'm curious about. What were all the given circumstances involved in the person going 30 in a 30?
This is my biggest problem with this. You are not setting any boundries. How can this be intelligently discussed, with wide open speculation?
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I don't know what wrong you commited, other than just feeling impatient while driving behind someone going the speed limit. I understand this level of frustration...as I myself feel that way, when if the circumstances are such, that it would be of no consequence to go another 4-5 mph faster.

When someone drives "exactly" the speed limit...and you are the only two cars around, the roads are dry, it is a clear day, no pedestrian or pet traffic anywhere, clear line of sight....this person then makes you feel like their main objective is to "impose their will upon you."
Actually...it is only your impatients talking. (natural human nature...not some religious misgiving) I've noticed in cuircumstances like this....if you tailgate and show them your scowl in the rear view mirror....it does cause them to dig in and maybe even slow down 1 mph...just to show you. But if you take a deep breath, back off and give them plenty of space...wow....all of a sudden...seems like they go..."oh...someone is behind me"...and it kinda wakes them up, and you then see them picking up the pace a little when it is safe.

I don't mind the religious overtone....but this is not a moral issue at all.
It is something we all feel and experiance...no matter what your faith, or beliefs.

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#23

01-16-2007 04:09 PM by Useless

Re: Obeying the speed limit, etc. (Religious Overtones)
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadhog
Quote:
Originally Posted by chapchap70
Cutting to the chase, I was at a bible study the other night and we were discussing legalism/libertine which both are considered wrong.

I relayed an event where I was driving years ago behind a person who was going 30 in a 30. Since I was churched basically my whole life, I figured this guy was probably a Christian since most people don't care about stuff like the speed limit. I thought to myself "legalist".

After honest reflection, the only "bad" thing this person did was to be in my way and I was the only one that was wrong.

I asked if they considered strictly obeying the speed limit to be legalism. (I guess I know how to stir the pot. :twisted: )

The elder leading the study thinks that it is more important to move with the flow of traffic so people do not do crazy things to get around you. He says that it is easy for conservative minded people to fall into the trap of do's and don'ts but we are supposed to be "in the spirit" and obey the spirit of the law.

What do you (especially those who would not set foot in a church except for a wedding/funeral) think of both lines of reasoning?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why are you spiraling this thread into a straight on full blown religious debate? If this thread were a speed limit sign...y'all are driving recklessly and way over the limit...with no clear line of sight. Next step is road rage and someone hitting the brakes on a tailgaiter...and causing a slight bump...then whining about how they are now a victim of your insane behavior.

I made bold print of what I'm curious about. What were all the given circumstances involved in the person going 30 in a 30?
This is my biggest problem with this. You are not setting any boundries. How can this be intelligently discussed, with wide open speculation?
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Well first of all I see the discussion as being two pronged.

On one hand, you have the matter of a 30mph speed limit, and the compliance issues that go with it.

On the other prong, you have the "Legalism vs. Libertine" issue, which is much more deeply involved.

when you try to combine the two, you wind up intermingling one relatively simple matter with another one that is more complex. As a result, the ground is laid for a Socratic discussion.

When you take the religious philosophy of legalism, you wind up delving into the concept of moral absolutes; then, there is no telling when or where the discussion will end.

In the end, if it offers food for thought, and someone wants to follow the discussion, or ask questions, of offer uo their own thoughts, I see no harm in it!!

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#24

01-16-2007 05:15 PM by Roadhog

I see no harm in keeping the topic as intended either. So...why not saddle this horse up, before it starts bucking? :P

I know about the two concepts of thought. I had the impression, this was the only given in this discussion, and the author was seeking more input from...lets say non-religious based reasoning.

Today's Theology is so convoluted...you sometimes need another perspective, in order to balance your choices of behavior. Many things need not be such a complicated choice or concept to reach. If you follow strictly one Doctrine of Thought...I think you risk becoming more a Legalist.

On the other hand...neither is strict (hehehe even though that is a contradiction to the vary concept) Libertine thinking balanced.

I believe following Man's laws are important, but flexible. You can't even compare that to following God or Nature's laws.....come on....that is crazy.

Man's Laws are not absolute. If you want to make them up to be...you will rip a hole in the fabric of Good vs. Evil, and threaten Mankind with the indecisive 7th Level of Hell, where no one will know what is real or a deception. Man's Laws were meant to be broken....that is why we have Lawyer's make Laws....and then help us when we break them as God intended.

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#25

01-16-2007 07:07 PM by golfhobo

Useless:

Calm down, son! ChapChap is not your enemy. He may be a rigid Christian.... but I don't see where HE has put you down for your beliefs. He ASKED for YOUR type of input. He has acknowledged that he hasn't "googled" all your info yet. Give him a break. :lol:

ChapChap:

Quote:
I asked if they considered strictly obeying the speed limit to be legalism. (I guess I know how to stir the pot. )
This sounds identical to the "trap" the pharisees (or Saducees) were trying to lay for Christ concerning the "tribute." Was this not a sin on your part?

Quote:
If I am to serve Christ well, there cannot be any deceit in me because to serve Christ is to serve the truth. When I lie to "bring about good", I am not serving Christ. I am actually stating by my actions that good is impotent on its own and needs the help of evil to suceed. This is hard to swallow but there it is.
At the direction of God, Gideon took his small force into the mountains and "deceived" the enemy into thinking they were outnumbered. God did not ASK him to march into camp, well outnumbered, and be slaughtered for being "truthful" about his army's strength. I continue to try to point out the difference between the concepts of "THE TRUTH" as in GOD.... and truth in general.... as opposed to a lie.

Quote:
My reason for relating the story that happened when I was much younger was to point to the place when I realized there was no wiggle room and I changed my ways. I stated my position and there was really nothing he could say. It seems to me that trying to argue for "go with the flow" in this one has to reason like an eight year old. It is actually very sad.
Although you mentioned that the Bible study class mentioned that BOTH concepts were wrong, YOU have decided that Legalism is proper. By definition, it is sometimes "too strict an adherence" to the law. The scripture you quoted in support says, "servants obey your masters..." Do you think that means that God created Slaves? That Lincoln sinned by emancipating the slaves in America? That our forefathers LIED and SINNED when they said "All men are created equal.... but owning slaves is O.K. cuz Jesus said so?"

Quote:
When Jesus was betrayed and was being led away by the Jewish authorities when He did no wrong, Peter decided it was time to fight. After all, if this wasn't a fight about what is honorable, just, and right, what is?
I'm not so sure I would agree that Peter decided to "fight." What he DID was to become "convicted" of his sin of denial. He then mustered the courage to admit his sin, and profess his belief in Jesus. As far as I know, the only TRUTH we are required to uphold is our belief in HIM. Even the Commandment Not to Bear False Witness, is correctly defined to mean lying AGAINST someone else, or with the intent to hurt another. It is not the same as telling a white lie about whether you've been in the cookie jar or not.

Quote:
When Stephen was stoned to death for preaching a sermon that the Jewish leaders found offensive, they stoned him. Why was there no retaliation?
Because we are taught to "turn the other cheek" and to "suffer" for His name's sake.

Quote:
If my understanding is correct, when the term "Christian" first came into use, it was a derrogatory term which meant "little Christ".
Have never heard that.... but could be true. Christians WERE persecuted for their beliefs. However, there is no doubt that they quickly took up the term with "pride" to mean that they were followers of Christ, who intended to be Christ Like in all manners. The definition today is clear.

Quote:
I agree that God's laws must have a higher authority then man's. Who gets to define what reasonable is?
That's a tough one. I guess WE do, based on our free will and consciense. Muhammed Ali "conscientiously objected" to going to war. Our laws allowed him to do so, and he did so because HE believed it was against God's law. In Prewar Germany, the "good" Germans were expected to "turn in" any known Jews. The "Legalists" caused the deaths of Millions. Thie "objectors" cannot be said to have sinned against God. [Perhaps you see a little "wiggle room" there?]

Quote:
To Useless, you said: I did not look into the people you mentioned yet. I perceive that if they did what they did for the sake of human institutions, they could not have served Christ at the same time. It is either one or the other.
I believe the point was that they did what they did for God's PEOPLE, and NOT for human institutions. Perhaps, you misunderstood his point.

Quote:
Should Christians leave things out of a Gospel presentation to make it more palatable in order to get people to "accept" Jesus?
Absolutely NOT!! Jesus makes it CLEAR that to follow him is a life of persecution and sacrifice. Like trucking.... one shouldn't get "into it" if they haven't got the stomach for it. Christians are not "recruiters" per se! They MAY get extra credit for how many they bring to Christ, but they are not instructed to blow smoke! They are told to share the Gospel. The decision is up to the one hearing it.

ChapChap, I commend your religious dedication, but I caution you about letting it cloud your "earthly vision." I really can't believe this all started because you wondered what God thought about a speed limit. :lol: God is worried about Man's SOUL!!! NOT how he drives his car.

Concerning the Caesar tribute thing. Jesus had been preaching amongst the people for quite some time, telling them that GOD was the creator and owner of all things on earth. He caused a Donkey to be "loosed" for God's purpose. The Pharisees and Saducees had struck bargains with the "Crown" and were looking for a way to entrap him and be rid of him. They were "jealous" over their money and their relationships with the tax man. They were trying to get him to say that GOD's authority was higher than Caesar's. Many.... even today.... don't want to give God the tithe, because they feel they have contributed to mankind by paying taxes to the Government. The fact was.... that even the coins with Caesar's image came to the people through the blessings of God. So he didn't HAVE to say what he said. There are MANY contradictions in the Bible. He simply outsmarted those who wanted to entrap him, and said "pay yoiur dues" to the Government (didn't say not to find a good tax lawyer!) but when you're done "dealing" with them.... you must STILL give God his due.

Legalism (in its own definition) references "Literalism." One should be careful NOT to take ANYTHING in life OR the Bible TOO literally!! But... that is NOT the same as being a Libertine. The world is NOT Black and White.

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#26

01-16-2007 07:45 PM by glasman2

I drive the speed limit, the person behind me is NOT going to pay my ticket.
No I don't go to church, but I am a jack Mormon

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#27

01-16-2007 09:36 PM by Useless

Golfhobo!!

I sent you a P.M.; Part of it is topic related, the other part is not, but I think that it is relevent to the discussion.

Appreciate it if you could take a look.

Thanks,
Useless

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#28

01-16-2007 09:50 PM by chapchap70

Quote:
If you have not made the effort to study these people, and learn of the victories that they won not only for mankind, but for the cause of what is Righteous in the eyes of God, then how can you be so quick to judge them??? Certainly, you would not want your perceptions to be clouded by fact!!

Your reply is in no small part why I do not appreciate being called a "Christian". You choose the path of Myopia, and yet you believe that you have the right to sit in judgment on their actions and motivations???

If you truly believe that the works of these people did not serve to glorify God, then I truly pity you.

I think that you have lost sight of the difference between what is truly Righteous, and what is self righteous!! As I said, it is because of people who think as you do that I do not wish to be called a Christian.

Useless,

The reason I responded before the way I did before I had a chance to find out about the people is to point out that no matter what I think, it doesn't matter if it is against God. I can only perceive; my perceptions may or may not be right. I am not the authority. I did not judge the people and even if I did, my judgements mean nothing.

I did not even have a chance to respond to your earlier posts and it is frustrating that I probably will not have time to do so today. Maybe after I do respond, your perceptions of me may change.

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#29

01-17-2007 03:03 AM by Truckfam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Useless
I appreciate you posting on the story of Oskar Schindler. Actually, he was a wealthy industrialist, who owned the company that manufactured the defective ammunition.

There is one other thing that merits pointing out, and that is that he was able to funnel them from the concentration camp to his factory, and by paying millions of dollars in bribe money to the SS, he was able to smuggle many of those Jews out and deliver them to freedom. Over 1200 Jews were delivered to freedom because of him. In the end, it wound up costing him everything he had financially, and he was never able to rebuild. He died penniless.

Now, there can be no doubt that he had some serious character flaws. I try to live the life of a decent human being, but in the eyes of God and Heaven, compared to Mr. Schindler, I do not believe that I would stand very tall at all.

I truly believe that he won an important victory for mankind, and an equally important victory for The Glory of God!!

So, "It's either one or the other", is it???

So, if that's the case, then......What were the words that Jesus spoke in His Sermon On The Mount???

"Whatsoever you do for the least of my brother, that you will have done unto me"!! ......doesn't quite fit, does it??

Peace to you and yours, Truckfam!!
You're welcome, and thank you for clarifying the history of Mr. Shindler for me. My background of him comes from me watching Shindler's List way back in college. I know there are some things I forgot.

Also I believe that was the verse I was thinking of. I do believe there is another similar verse also.

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#30

01-17-2007 04:21 AM by chapchap70

Quote:
chapchap70 wrote:
Cutting to the chase, I was at a bible study the other night and we were discussing legalism/libertine which both are considered wrong.

I relayed an event where I was driving years ago behind a person who was going 30 in a 30. Since I was churched basically my whole life, I figured this guy was probably a Christian since most people don't care about stuff like the speed limit. I thought to myself "legalist".

I asked if they considered strictly obeying the speed limit to be legalism. (I guess I know how to stir the pot. Twisted Evil )

The elder leading the study thinks that it is more important to move with the flow of traffic so people do not do crazy things to get around you. He says that it is easy for conservative minded people to fall into the trap of do's and don'ts but we are supposed to be "in the spirit" and obey the spirit of the law.

What do you (especially those who would not set foot in a church except for a wedding/funeral) think of both lines of reasoning?

Well, I'm not a Christian, don't even remember the last time I was attended a church worship service, and would be considered by many to be a "lost soul", so I'd like to take a shot at this, if I may.

First off, let me say that in my opinion, I think that your church elder is probably closer to the truth on this issue.

I don't see this as a Legalism vs. Libertine issue. I see it as a safety and a compliance issue. Speed limits exist for a reason. Now, some speed limits do seem unreasonably low, and yes, I have also encountered situations where they seemed a little higher than they should be.

If a person is driving 30MPH in a 30MPH speed zone, there could be a number of reasons why he/she has chosen to do that, and none of them would never have anything to do with heaven, hell, or eternal damnation, or eternal salvation. The driver has simply chosen to comply with the law.

There could be many factors governing his decision, such as age, health conditions, slower reflexes, lack of familiarity with the locale, or, he simply does not believe in violating the speed limit. There may be countless other reasons as well.

Something else that caught my attention was that when you observed him driving the speed limit, for some reason, you immediately concluded that he was a Christian. Why??

There have been many times that I have stopped to help someone stranded on the side of the road or the highway. There have been many times that I've been able to help others out; it's just something that I feel called upon to do.

Many times, I've had people thank me, and tell me that I was "a good Christian". (Personally, I have absolutely no desire to be called a Christian.) Now, do Christians have some type of lock or stronghold on complying with the law, or stopping to change a flat tire for an elderly man, or a young woman with children in the car, or reaching out to help others?? And if they do, then why didn't one of them stop to offer help?? Bhuddists, Jews, Hindus, Pagans, or New Age Spiritualists don't believe in helping others??? Somehow, that just does not make sense to me!!???

As for the "Good Christians", San Antonio is home to Cornerstone Baptist Church, pastored by no less than The Reverend John Hagee; a strong Christian Fundamentalist whose sermons are broadcasted all over the nation, and to different parts of the world. Now, once I had the occasion of driving around the Cornerstone Church parking lot on a Sunday. I quietly giggled to myself as I observed the number of radar detectors sitting on the dashboards of different vehicles. Fundamentalists though they may be, thumping their Bibles, singing their hymns, and yet, they need a radar detector to keep from getting a speeding ticket??

Something else about him leaves me perplexed as well; Pastor Hagee receives a salary of over one million dollars a year, wears a Rolex, and lives in one of the most prestigious nieghborhoods in San Antonio. Why do I have a problem with that??

I don't attend Cornerstone, don't support them financially, and his congregation is largely very affluent. Whatever deal he has worked out with them is really none of my business, it it??

At the same time, I find it rather ironic that these people gather in the posh and hallowed halls to worship a man who was truly the King of kings, and yet he lived the life of a carpenter, and hung out with a group of fishermen. Yet, here we have a mortal man, leader of his congregation, living the life of a king.

Must say, it strikes me as rather strange!!

I remember driving on Loop 1604 in San Antonio one day, doing 75 in the right hand lane, and having cars blast right past me. One of them had a bumper sticker which read "I Have Decided To Follow Jesus". I remember thinking to myself, "Man, I didn't know that Jesus drove that fast!!"

As for the issue of leagalism, I see it as a way for Religious leaders to control the masses. I once had a very fundamentalist Christian man explain to me that I could not go to Heaven because I had long hair, and that my wife couldn't go to Heaven because she had short hair. Strange thing was, he couldn't support his family, his gas was shut off due to non payment, leaving his family without heat in an old, poorly insulated home, (BTW, this was in the Winter) and he had no food for his children.

Now, I may be amongst the great unwashed, but when I went down to pay his gas bill, and get it turned back on so that his family could have some heat, and when my wife went to the grocery to by his family some food, unwashed heathens though we may be, these folks were perfectly willing to accept our help!!

I'm sorry I didn't reply to this first. I tried to reply to everyone last night and it got to be almost 1 a.m. here and I leave for work at 6, and there was more coming in as I was trying to write.

Quote:
Something else that caught my attention was that when you observed him driving the speed limit, for some reason, you immediately concluded that he was a Christian. Why??
Maybe I could have written my opening post better.

A little background: There were many people I knew growing up who professed to be Christians and not one of them kept the speed limit like this person did. Some would do maybe 5 mph over but this person did not go over at all. I simply did not see people (professing Christians or not) obey the speed limit. Maybe it is different on Long Island than elsewhere but I still hardly see it.

This was the first time I remember someone doing this and since I was about 20 at the time and knew that Christians were supposed to do what was right so I thought he must be a Christian. At the time, I didn't want to admit to myself that everyone I knew was wrong so I guess this person became the scapegoat where I used the term "legalist". So one the one hand, I knew he was doing good and on the other, I tried to make it in my mind that he wasn't doing good. I guess I could have left the term "Christian" out and just referred to him as a legalist.

We had a sort of talent night at church one time. It was known throughout our church that the pastor had a habit of speeding and got his share of tickets. There was a skit done by the youth group. I do not think I was in high school yet. There was a cardboard painting of his suburban and a cardboard cop car with the siren blaring. Most everyone was laughing hysterically when the kids were running across the stage with the cars and I could understand why. Even at that age, I wondered in the back of my mind how it could be right for us to be laughing at something that Christ had to die for.

About the person you helped that condemned you for your hair, there is a verse that comes to mind. I do not know all that was involved with this case but it seems you did right if what I think matters.

1 Tim. 5:8 (KJV)
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

I do not quote stuff like this out of glee and do not want to see anything bad happen to anyone. I think it is worse for me to know and not say anything and have people find out after it is too late to do anything than to go through life trying not to offend anyone.

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