I asked if they considered strictly obeying the speed limit to be legalism. (I guess I know how to stir the pot. )

If I am to serve Christ well, there cannot be any deceit in me because to serve Christ is to serve the truth. When I lie to "bring about good", I am not serving Christ. I am actually stating by my actions that good is impotent on its own and needs the help of evil to suceed. This is hard to swallow but there it is.

My reason for relating the story that happened when I was much younger was to point to the place when I realized there was no wiggle room and I changed my ways. I stated my position and there was really nothing he could say. It seems to me that trying to argue for "go with the flow" in this one has to reason like an eight year old. It is actually very sad.

When Jesus was betrayed and was being led away by the Jewish authorities when He did no wrong, Peter decided it was time to fight. After all, if this wasn't a fight about what is honorable, just, and right, what is?

When Stephen was stoned to death for preaching a sermon that the Jewish leaders found offensive, they stoned him. Why was there no retaliation?

If my understanding is correct, when the term "Christian" first came into use, it was a derrogatory term which meant "little Christ".

I agree that God's laws must have a higher authority then man's. Who gets to define what reasonable is?

To Useless, you said: I did not look into the people you mentioned yet. I perceive that if they did what they did for the sake of human institutions, they could not have served Christ at the same time. It is either one or the other.

Should Christians leave things out of a Gospel presentation to make it more palatable in order to get people to "accept" Jesus?

If you have not made the effort to study these people, and learn of the victories that they won not only for mankind, but for the cause of what is Righteous in the eyes of God, then how can you be so quick to judge them??? Certainly, you would not want your perceptions to be clouded by fact!!

Your reply is in no small part why I do not appreciate being called a "Christian". You choose the path of Myopia, and yet you believe that you have the right to sit in judgment on their actions and motivations???

If you truly believe that the works of these people did not serve to glorify God, then I truly pity you.

I think that you have lost sight of the difference between what is truly Righteous, and what is self righteous!! As I said, it is because of people who think as you do that I do not wish to be called a Christian.

chapchap70 wrote:
Cutting to the chase, I was at a bible study the other night and we were discussing legalism/libertine which both are considered wrong.

I relayed an event where I was driving years ago behind a person who was going 30 in a 30. Since I was churched basically my whole life, I figured this guy was probably a Christian since most people don't care about stuff like the speed limit. I thought to myself "legalist".

I asked if they considered strictly obeying the speed limit to be legalism. (I guess I know how to stir the pot. Twisted Evil )

The elder leading the study thinks that it is more important to move with the flow of traffic so people do not do crazy things to get around you. He says that it is easy for conservative minded people to fall into the trap of do's and don'ts but we are supposed to be "in the spirit" and obey the spirit of the law.

What do you (especially those who would not set foot in a church except for a wedding/funeral) think of both lines of reasoning?


Well, I'm not a Christian, don't even remember the last time I was attended a church worship service, and would be considered by many to be a "lost soul", so I'd like to take a shot at this, if I may.

First off, let me say that in my opinion, I think that your church elder is probably closer to the truth on this issue.

I don't see this as a Legalism vs. Libertine issue. I see it as a safety and a compliance issue. Speed limits exist for a reason. Now, some speed limits do seem unreasonably low, and yes, I have also encountered situations where they seemed a little higher than they should be.

If a person is driving 30MPH in a 30MPH speed zone, there could be a number of reasons why he/she has chosen to do that, and none of them would never have anything to do with heaven, hell, or eternal damnation, or eternal salvation. The driver has simply chosen to comply with the law.

There could be many factors governing his decision, such as age, health conditions, slower reflexes, lack of familiarity with the locale, or, he simply does not believe in violating the speed limit. There may be countless other reasons as well.

Something else that caught my attention was that when you observed him driving the speed limit, for some reason, you immediately concluded that he was a Christian. Why??

There have been many times that I have stopped to help someone stranded on the side of the road or the highway. There have been many times that I've been able to help others out; it's just something that I feel called upon to do.

Many times, I've had people thank me, and tell me that I was "a good Christian". (Personally, I have absolutely no desire to be called a Christian.) Now, do Christians have some type of lock or stronghold on complying with the law, or stopping to change a flat tire for an elderly man, or a young woman with children in the car, or reaching out to help others?? And if they do, then why didn't one of them stop to offer help?? Bhuddists, Jews, Hindus, Pagans, or New Age Spiritualists don't believe in helping others??? Somehow, that just does not make sense to me!!???

As for the "Good Christians", San Antonio is home to Cornerstone Baptist Church, pastored by no less than The Reverend John Hagee; a strong Christian Fundamentalist whose sermons are broadcasted all over the nation, and to different parts of the world. Now, once I had the occasion of driving around the Cornerstone Church parking lot on a Sunday. I quietly giggled to myself as I observed the number of radar detectors sitting on the dashboards of different vehicles. Fundamentalists though they may be, thumping their Bibles, singing their hymns, and yet, they need a radar detector to keep from getting a speeding ticket??

Something else about him leaves me perplexed as well; Pastor Hagee receives a salary of over one million dollars a year, wears a Rolex, and lives in one of the most prestigious nieghborhoods in San Antonio. Why do I have a problem with that??

I don't attend Cornerstone, don't support them financially, and his congregation is largely very affluent. Whatever deal he has worked out with them is really none of my business, it it??

At the same time, I find it rather ironic that these people gather in the posh and hallowed halls to worship a man who was truly the King of kings, and yet he lived the life of a carpenter, and hung out with a group of fishermen. Yet, here we have a mortal man, leader of his congregation, living the life of a king.

Must say, it strikes me as rather strange!!

I remember driving on Loop 1604 in San Antonio one day, doing 75 in the right hand lane, and having cars blast right past me. One of them had a bumper sticker which read "I Have Decided To Follow Jesus". I remember thinking to myself, "Man, I didn't know that Jesus drove that fast!!"

As for the issue of leagalism, I see it as a way for Religious leaders to control the masses. I once had a very fundamentalist Christian man explain to me that I could not go to Heaven because I had long hair, and that my wife couldn't go to Heaven because she had short hair. Strange thing was, he couldn't support his family, his gas was shut off due to non payment, leaving his family without heat in an old, poorly insulated home, (BTW, this was in the Winter) and he had no food for his children.

Now, I may be amongst the great unwashed, but when I went down to pay his gas bill, and get it turned back on so that his family could have some heat, and when my wife went to the grocery to by his family some food, unwashed heathens though we may be, these folks were perfectly willing to accept our help!!

Something else that caught my attention was that when you observed him driving the speed limit, for some reason, you immediately concluded that he was a Christian. Why??