[chapchap70]

Cutting to the chase, I was at a bible study the other night and we were discussing legalism/libertine which both are considered wrong.

I relayed an event where I was driving years ago behind a person who was going 30 in a 30. Since I was churched basically my whole life, I figured this guy was probably a Christian since most people don't care about stuff like the speed limit. I thought to myself "legalist".

After honest reflection, the only "bad" thing this person did was to be in my way and I was the only one that was wrong.

I asked if they considered strictly obeying the speed limit to be legalism. (I guess I know how to stir the pot. :twisted: )

The elder leading the study thinks that it is more important to move with the flow of traffic so people do not do crazy things to get around you. He says that it is easy for conservative minded people to fall into the trap of do's and don'ts but we are supposed to be "in the spirit" and obey the spirit of the law.

What do you (especially those who would not set foot in a church except for a wedding/funeral) think of both lines of reasoning?

[terrylamar]

Originally Posted by chapchap70

Cutting to the chase, I was at a bible study the other night and we were discussing legalism/libertine which both are considered wrong.

I relayed an event where I was driving years ago behind a person who was going 30 in a 30. Since I was churched basically my whole life, I figured this guy was probably a Christian since most people don't care about stuff like the speed limit. I thought to myself "legalist".

After honest reflection, the only "bad" thing this person did was to be in my way and I was the only one that was wrong.

I asked if they considered strictly obeying the speed limit to be legalism. (I guess I know how to stir the pot. :twisted: )

The elder leading the study thinks that it is more important to move with the flow of traffic so people do not do crazy things to get around you. He says that it is easy for conservative minded people to fall into the trap of do's and don'ts but we are supposed to be "in the spirit" and obey the spirit of the law.

What do you (especially those who would not set foot in a church except for a wedding/funeral) think of both lines of reasoning?

Lemmings go with the flow, look what happens to them. :shock:

[Roadhog]

This is one of those topics that has so many variables...ie;weather, line of sight, location, time of day or night, congestion, pedestrian activity, any driveways, and the list of variables is huge.

My speed or behavior would be reflecting what I felt was safe given the circumstances. I might either speed up, or slow down...and overall, I would hope to not be taking risks or drawing any attendtion from the Cops, considering all the drugs and weapons I have in the trunk.

[Useless]

Can't you read a road sign, chapchap70???

The sign clearly read: "Thou Shalt Not Drive Over 30MPH"!!

What's the matter with you??

[Fozzy]

I have never understood the big debate about the speed limit thing. I have used this in discussion before its funny to see some of them squirm when the topic of obeying the law and morality/religion comes up... :shock:

[chapchap70]

I didn't say I agreed with the Elder. :roll:

My reason for relating the story that happened when I was much younger was to point to the place when I realized there was no wiggle room and I changed my ways. I stated my position and there was really nothing he could say. It seems to me that trying to argue for "go with the flow" in this one has to reason like an eight year old. It is actually very sad. :cry: :cry:

[golfhobo]

Lemmings go with the flow, look what happens to them.

Deer and Rabbits stop in the road and stare at you like YOU are not supposed to be there.

Look what happens to THEM. :wink:

[glasman2]

Originally Posted by golfhobo

Deer and Rabbits stop in the road and stare at you like YOU are not supposed to be there.

Look what happens to THEM. :wink:

golfhobo runs over them :twisted:

[Useless]

Originally Posted by chapchap70

Cutting to the chase, I was at a bible study the other night and we were discussing legalism/libertine which both are considered wrong.

I relayed an event where I was driving years ago behind a person who was going 30 in a 30. Since I was churched basically my whole life, I figured this guy was probably a Christian since most people don't care about stuff like the speed limit. I thought to myself "legalist".

I asked if they considered strictly obeying the speed limit to be legalism. (I guess I know how to stir the pot. :twisted: )

The elder leading the study thinks that it is more important to move with the flow of traffic so people do not do crazy things to get around you. He says that it is easy for conservative minded people to fall into the trap of do's and don'ts but we are supposed to be "in the spirit" and obey the spirit of the law.

What do you (especially those who would not set foot in a church except for a wedding/funeral) think of both lines of reasoning?

Well, I'm not a Christian, don't even remember the last time I was attended a church worship service, and would be considered by many to be a "lost soul", so I'd like to take a shot at this, if I may.

First off, let me say that in my opinion, I think that your church elder is probably closer to the truth on this issue.

I don't see this as a Legalism vs. Libertine issue. I see it as a safety and a compliance issue. Speed limits exist for a reason. Now, some speed limits do seem unreasonably low, and yes, I have also encountered situations where they seemed a little higher than they should be.

If a person is driving 30MPH in a 30MPH speed zone, there could be a number of reasons why he/she has chosen to do that, and none of them would never have anything to do with heaven, hell, or eternal damnation, or eternal salvation. The driver has simply chosen to comply with the law.

There could be many factors governing his decision, such as age, health conditions, slower reflexes, lack of familiarity with the locale, or, he simply does not believe in violating the speed limit. There may be countless other reasons as well.

Something else that caught my attention was that when you observed him driving the speed limit, for some reason, you immediately concluded that he was a Christian. Why??

There have been many times that I have stopped to help someone stranded on the side of the road or the highway. There have been many times that I've been able to help others out; it's just something that I feel called upon to do.

Many times, I've had people thank me, and tell me that I was "a good Christian". (Personally, I have absolutely no desire to be called a Christian.) Now, do Christians have some type of lock or stronghold on complying with the law, or stopping to change a flat tire for an elderly man, or a young woman with children in the car, or reaching out to help others?? And if they do, then why didn't one of them stop to offer help?? Bhuddists, Jews, Hindus, Pagans, or New Age Spiritualists don't believe in helping others??? Somehow, that just does not make sense to me!!???

As for the "Good Christians", San Antonio is home to Cornerstone Baptist Church, pastored by no less than The Reverend John Hagee; a strong Christian Fundamentalist whose sermons are broadcasted all over the nation, and to different parts of the world. Now, once I had the occasion of driving around the Cornerstone Church parking lot on a Sunday. I quietly giggled to myself as I observed the number of radar detectors sitting on the dashboards of different vehicles. Fundamentalists though they may be, thumping their Bibles, singing their hymns, and yet, they need a radar detector to keep from getting a speeding ticket??

Something else about him leaves me perplexed as well; Pastor Hagee receives a salary of over one million dollars a year, wears a Rolex, and lives in one of the most prestigious nieghborhoods in San Antonio. Why do I have a problem with that??

I don't attend Cornerstone, don't support them financially, and his congregation is largely very affluent. Whatever deal he has worked out with them is really none of my business, it it??

At the same time, I find it rather ironic that these people gather in the posh and hallowed halls to worship a man who was truly the King of kings, and yet he lived the life of a carpenter, and hung out with a group of fishermen. Yet, here we have a mortal man, leader of his congregation, living the life of a king.

Must say, it strikes me as rather strange!!

I remember driving on Loop 1604 in San Antonio one day, doing 75 in the right hand lane, and having cars blast right past me. One of them had a bumper sticker which read "I Have Decided To Follow Jesus". I remember thinking to myself, "Man, I didn't know that Jesus drove that fast!!"

As for the issue of leagalism, I see it as a way for Religious leaders to control the masses. I once had a very fundamentalist Christian man explain to me that I could not go to Heaven because I had long hair, and that my wife couldn't go to Heaven because she had short hair. Strange thing was, he couldn't support his family, his gas was shut off due to non payment, leaving his family without heat in an old, poorly insulated home, (BTW, this was in the Winter) and he had no food for his children.

Now, I may be amongst the great unwashed, but when I went down to pay his gas bill, and get it turned back on so that his family could have some heat, and when my wife went to the grocery to by his family some food, unwashed heathens though we may be, these folks were perfectly willing to accept our help!!

Go Figure!!

[golfhobo]

AMEN!! Useless!!!

Just a few points.

When a person (who most likely IS of the Christian persuasion) calls you a good Christian, it is not an insult, or exclusatory of others. A Buddhist might call you a "good Buddhist." And so on.

The definition of a Christian is NOT the same as a Protestant or even a "believer." IT means Christ Like. Christ was known for helping the downtrodden or those in need. In fact, putting THEIR needs ahead of his own. Whether Jesus (Christ) even existed or not, is not the question. The WORD is defined by the stories/fables of what a compassionate man Jesus was!

To be called a good Christian, is to be commended for being Christ Like, or "helpful" and "concerned" about others. It's just a WORD... with a definition.... and not a LABEL.

Christians and other religious folk, do NOT have a "lock" on Morality. And not even CHRIST expects them to. So... if they have a radar detector, they are not breaking any "Christian" laws.

Jesus said, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's... and to God that which is His."

THIS, in fact, is the FIRST and fundamental "separation clause" between government and religion!

Jesus was NOT saying that one MUST pay tribute to the "Crown" so much as he was saying to "deal with them" as you feel obligated or oppressed to do. But, to give GOD the tribute HE asks. In fact, the response was to a question about whether one should have to make "offerings" to God, when he is already being "taxed" by the government.

I find NO real mandate in the Bible for God's people to necessarily obey ALL the laws of the government, except as they are reasonable and not against God's laws.

So... whether you LIKE it or not.... when you and your wife, with the wrong length of hair, gave "comfort" and "aid" to another of God's children... you were being "christian" or Christ Like. No obligation to join a church or nothing.... not a Label.... just an "adjective."

I, too, took SOME offense to ChapChap's "unintentional" slight that ONLY Christians cared about being law abiding. But... like he said... he'd been "indoctrinated" all his life by those who had their own agenda.

I think the "Elder" was, at least in this case, a wise man. He knew that BOTH legalism and Libertinism, to extremes, can cause a lack of harmony in the World.

Not ALL on-ramps have this sign, and not ALL drivers education programs teach it, but "I" was taught that when merging onto a freeway, one should ALWAYS merge "at the speed of traffic!" NOT ONCE have I ever heard that one should merge at a "specific" speed limit! This is for the EXPRESS intent of avoiding fatal accidents.

I've seen cops sitting in speed zones.... even construction zones.... watching traffic go by at 5-15 mph over the posted limit. If they wanted to do something about it... they WOULD. But, they are ONLY concerned that the flow of traffic is equal, safe, and NOT erratic!

I laughed my butt off at the bumper sticker you told us about!! The circumstances WERE hilarious. But... it made me think of my father, the BEST Christian and Preacher I've EVER known!

With HIS sense of humor, he'd have had one that added the phrase, "And I WISH he'd speed up!" :lol:

ChapChap said he'd just attended a bible class that said BOTH Legalism and Libertinism were "bad." I tend to agree with that! And I think Jesus would, too! But, as it applies to strict (or not) adherence to man's laws... I'm not so sure he has that strong of an opinion. Man's laws are often corrupted by man's prejudices and personal agenda.

God is concerned about us following HIS laws!

The ONLY "god" law I saw in question here, was ChapChap's "intolerance" or "agitation" with another human for doing what HE thought was right. No offense intended to ChapChap. We are ALL guilty of such egocentricity. (I'm one of the worst!) And THAT is what is against God's laws.