So, there truly is "no wiggle room"??

I find it just a bit ironic that I am posting this reply on "Dr. Martin Luther King Day"!!

If there is indeed, no wiggle room, then we are forced to draw some inescapable conclusions here.

1.) Rosa Parks sinned by refusing to give up her seat on a city bus in Selma, Alabama.

2.) Dr. Martin Luther King sinned by calling for non-violence, and civil disobedience, and for refusing to accept seating in the "colored" section of a restaurant.

3.) Mother Jones sinned in her acts of union organizing, fighting to free children enslaved in "sweat shop" labor, and staging of union protests.

4.) Susan B. Anthony sinned in her struggles for women suffer-age.

5.) Joe Hill sinned in fighting for the rights of copper miners.

6.) Oskar Schindler sinned in selling defective ammunition to The Nazi's, and using the money he was paid to buy freedom for Jews imprisoned in concentration camps.

7.) Lech Walesa sinned in organizing shipyard workers into unions, and giving birth to the Solidarity Movement.

8.) Crispus Atticus sinned in serving the Union as a spy during the
Civil War; he was, after all living a lifestyle of deceit!!

There are so many others, far too many heroes to mention.

Sorry, I just can't buy that!!

Every one of those people engaged in different, and necessary forms of civil disobedience, and found themselves outside the boundaries and confines of legalism. If their acts were sin in the eyes of Heaven, then as far as I am concerned, the only greater sin that they could have committed would to remain within the confines of religious legalism, and done nothing.

 

I am replying to these backwards. More posts are coming

Useless wrote:


I have gone through this in my mind with at least the first two things you listed. Some of them I do not know enough about to comment.

If I am to serve Christ well, there cannot be any deceit in me because to serve Christ is to serve the truth. When I lie to "bring about good", I am not serving Christ. I am actually stating by my actions that good is impotent on its own and needs the help of evil to suceed. This is hard to swallow but there it is.


Some things to think about:

When Jesus was betrayed and was being led away by the Jewish authorities when He did no wrong, Peter decided it was time to fight. After all, if this wasn't a fight about what is honorable, just, and right, what is?

When Stephen was stoned to death for preaching a sermon that the Jewish leaders found offensive, they stoned him. Why was there no retaliation?

 

 

Double post

 

But yet, Jesus himself broke man's laws. It was against man's law that he call himself the Christ. According to Jewish laws, that was balphemsy and enough to put himself on the cross.

He also created a whip and over turned the money changers tables in the temple. I'm sure there was a law about civil disobedience in those days also.

He called the religious heads of that time snakes, vipers, and hyprocrites. I believe snakes and vipers would have been the worst things to say to them, since it has the reference back to the garden of Eden and snake representing Satan.

Even though everyone portrays him peacful, he wasn't out to create peace. He offended at least half of everyone he talked to, and sometimes over half. There was the one time he was talking I believe in a temple, and the entire crowd wanted him dead.

Yes, Jesus broke man's law, and offended others. Yet, he never sinned against God or God's laws.

As to the elder on speeding, that is a hoot. He is only trying to cover his but trying to make it look like it is ok to do. He knows he speeds himself, and doesn't want to get caught by his own words.

As far as driving speed limit or under, I'm one of them. I hate driving, and get lost easily. I get white knuckle syndrom on the steering wheel. Don't feel that I can see well merging into traffic. That is when I do alot of praying. Everything seems to be a blur whether or not I'm turning my head or trying to use the mirrors. I got lost coming home from my local walmart with a brain fart thinking I had to go north instead of south. It took 15 minutes on the cell sitting at a Sheets before my husband finally told me to just take a right and go straight. The road leads directly into town, and I'll see the turn for our road. I'll be home in 10 minutes, well 15 to 20 with the way you drive. Real irony is that my husband is total oppsite of me.

I know, I know, I need to get out driving more. To tell you the truth, I'm scared, and have a slow reaction time. I rather stock up for two weeks on grocercies and not have to drive, than take a trip to the store before he gets home. I think I might try a trip to Walmart later on, and maybe a trip to the local library. Walmart is fairly easy, except merging. The road to the library is two lane with stoplights at the end of the road. I might have to parall park though. UGH.. :?

 

Golfhobo,

If my understanding is correct, when the term "Christian" first came into use, it was a derrogatory term which meant "little Christ".


Luke 20:20-26 (KJV)
And they watched him, and sent forth spies, which should feign themselves just men, that they might take hold of his words, that so they might deliver him unto the power and authority of the governor. [21] And they asked him, saying, Master, we know that thou sayest and teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the person of any, but teachest the way of God truly: [22] Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no? [23] But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me? [24] Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar's. [25] And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's. [26] And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace.



I agree that God's laws must have a higher authority then man's. Who gets to define what reasonable is?

1 Peter 2:13-20 (KJV)
Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; [14] Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. [15] For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: [16] As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. [17] Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. [18] Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. [19] For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. [20] For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.


This is the main reason why I disagree with the Elder. Do we submit to our governments' laws all the time when it does not go against the laws of God, or only when it is convenient? (God won't mind if I speed to get to church on time, right?:roll I am unable to obey all the laws when I am trying. There are too many. I, in practice do not say to myself, "that one is no big deal" because they all are. I am thankful for God's grace.

 

I can only perceive. If my perceptions are different than God's, I am wrong. I believe there are stories in the Old Testament where people were commended and it could be said they used deceptions. I think they may have been commended for not taking a worse alternative but they may have been able to do better.

1 John 2:15-17 (KJV)
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. [16] For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. [17] And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

I did not look into the people you mentioned yet. I perceive that if they did what they did for the sake of human institutions, they could not have served Christ at the same time. It is either one or the other.

Should Christians leave things out of a Gospel presentation to make it more palatable in order to get people to "accept" Jesus?




More at another time because I can't give thoughtful responses to all the replies right now as they are coming too fast.

 

[quote="chapchap70"]

I did not look into the people you mentioned yet.

I perceive that if they did what they did for the sake of human institutions, they could not have served Christ at the same time.

If you have not made the effort to study these people, and learn of the victories that they won not only for mankind, but for the cause of what is Righteous in the eyes of God, then how can you be so quick to judge them??? Certainly, you would not want your perceptions to be clouded by fact!!

Your reply is in no small part why I do not appreciate being called a "Christian". You choose the path of Myopia, and yet you believe that you have the right to sit in judgment on their actions and motivations???

If you truly believe that the works of these people did not serve to glorify God, then I truly pity you.

I think that you have lost sight of the difference between what is truly Righteous, and what is self righteous!! As I said, it is because of people who think as you do that I do not wish to be called a Christian.

 

[quote="chapchap70"]Shindler was a Natzi official running a Concentration camp filled with Jews. His job was to work the Jews to death and eventually kill them perferablly sooner. How he got into that position, I don't know. If he had a change of heart during that position, possibly.

For what ever reason Shindler had the Jews at that camp make more dud artellery than live artelliry. So that at least half if not over half of the weaponary would not work thus saving allies lives and thus in the long run saving more Jewish lives.

He also treated the Jews in the camp as best he could without having his superiors clamping down on him. According to Shindler's List the movie, he worked to bring families together requesting the children of the parents to come to his camp. When asked why, he said their small hands were needed to clean the inside of the shells.

Yet, if he turned his back on everything and the camp because his beliefs changed, then all the Jews in that camp would have suffered terribly.

Shindler went against the government's laws, his commands, and every thing Hitler stood for. If he was found out, he more than likely would have died in the process. Yet in doing so, he obeyed God's law by loving they neighbor, loving thy enemy, giving to those who are in need, and looking out for the widows and orphans, and not murdering.

Paraphrased on one of Jesus sayings. Too tired to look it up right now: Who ever gives a drink to them also gives a drink to me. Who ever gives a blanket or coat to these also clothes me.

Shindler broke man's law to fulfill God's laws.

Also, no it is not right to leave out the gospel in order to not offend others. Jesus must be shaking his head every time someone does that. I wouldn't go all out and say it is a sin to do so, but to do so, leaves out the power of the Gospel and Jesus himself.

Sadly, there are too many churches that become seeker sensitive instead of God, Jesus, and Holy Ghost sensitive.

 

I'll tell you it is hard, very hard to put Christianity in a good light knowing I'm going to mess up somewhere. I'm going to do something wrong, put my foot in my mouth. Knowing someone, somewhere, someday is going to say that about me also.

Please don't look at all Christians like that, or think the gospel is mesed up because we mess it up by our behaviour or what we say. I'm imperfect, and to be held to perfect standards is the is the weight that will chrush any Christian especially me.