[4roses]

Ok ... :? ... I'm going to stick my neck out on this one ... because I feel this Thread could serve to be of great importance ... and I feel it could be continued in a manner that would be respectful to both men and women. So how about it - - we don't hijack this thread any more and get back to what this Thread was intended to be ... a form of understanding and expressing ones feelings and view points ...

RedRaven:

ironeagle2006... Good for you... Bet you could teach some of the guys a thing or two about what many woman go through staying at home raising their kids

Without me sounding so harsh ... but dear one .. what does that have to do with the Topic ... Embrace your Feminism side ? ... how about we try to stay on the topic for a while. :wink:

ops: ok .. I'm seating in the corner since I've been bad .. plz let me know when I can come back out for a while... :roll:

[golfhobo]

Roses: You KNOW I got your back, girl. But, I don't think Raven was hijacking the thread. Sorry, but I think it was pertinent that an open minded man can teach others that a woman who stays at home and "mangages" the household, is JUST as valuable as one who drives a truck and brings home the bacon.

I applaud your post. And, likewise the one from Roadhog that I didn't really see. (maybe, I saw it in a dream.) :lol:

Funny how, when "I" stand up for women, no one PM's ME to tell me to shut up. Not that it would do any good!

My Mom was a "stay at home" mom. I never ONCE thought less of her for it. There were times when she DID have to take a job, to make ends meet. As a kid, I barely noticed the necessity, I just accepted it. I never ONCE heard anything from either parent, to make me think there was any difference between them!

When I got older, I had some long talks with my mom. Not only did I then realize what she had "sacrificed" to provide me a stable HOME, but also what my father had sacrificed to follow the calling of his religious FATHER.

Although I vowed to do MORE with my life, I have NEVER found a better substitute for EITHER of them! They were BOTH the "best" at what they did. And THAT is what I learned was important!

My father could EASILY have been an "honest" CEO of any major corporation, and, I suspect my mother could have too!

I have been blessed to have the parents I have. No prejudices. No drug problems or drinking. Just SOLID (conservative) sense!

I'm not sure what a "feminine" side is, exactly.... but Im quite SURE I embraced it long ago. My mother CARED for people all her life. Even to the point of being a CNA in her later life, wiping the butts of old men who couldn't take care of themselves any longer. She did it with dignity for the patient, and pride in her own work. There are alot of men out there who would have died without dignity, if it weren't for my mother.

Could she have driven a truck instead? I'm sure she could! She grew up in the harvest areas of the north central / western states. She drove "team" with my dad for YEARS getting us "home" to North Carolina twice a year BEFORE the interstates were built!

I'm telling you, this was one TOUGH woman! Born of solid Western stock, and with the intelligence to deal with a changng world. I dare say that she is more intelligent than my father, and to this day, is my main confidant!

I will say THIS about the "feminist" movement. Unfortunately, it was necessary. Like ALL "just" causes, it needed a bit of "revolution." By nature, and by "definiton," a CONSERVATIVE male population must be changed by force. Whenever possible, that "force" should be nonviolent.

As a result, the more intelligent of those males will "get it" and, although they wont admit it, will change and adapt. The rest will have to be hunted down an SHOT! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Guess what folks, women have been driving trucks as long as there have been trucks! Not to take away from the efforts they have made, but there is NOT the "glass ceiling" in trucking that there is in other, more "considered" professional occupations. The very fact that we have several members here of MY AGE who have been doing so for years, proves that.

If you don't believe me, think about the first woman congressman. Or the fact that we are seriously considering Hillary as the frontrunner in the Democratic party. Or how recently the first woman went into space. In my ADULT lifetime, there have been no less than 4 or 5 women who were the leaders of their country!

As I've said before, to you women, you've WON!! Now, quit fighting so hard! Learn to take "YES" for an answer!! If I can deal with the fact that my government has dealt with other governments LED by a woman, and is on the verge of possibly electing one ourselves, I THINK I can deal with a woman in the cab of a PETE!

Hobo

[4roses]

very well put Hobo .... thank you my friend :wink: .... as I look back now and take a moment to think clearly ... I see what your saying about the the thread not being hijacked. I agree. Sorry RedRaven ops:

[RedRaven]

Originally Posted by for4roses

Have women given up on the 'freedom act', to be independent ... no not really, I believe we have just slowed down a bit .. it won't ever go back to where it was 60yrs ago.... for women. .... But I worry about the male's / men. Can they ever completely adjust and change with us ???? ... All we want is the chance to make a good living for our family ..

Now I don't know if all this I spoke of even comes close to what your asking Roadhog ... but for the moment it's the best I can come up with. :wink:

No reason to be sorry 4forRoses... You asked the question, and I was simply pointing out that some men have learned, adjusted, and changed right along with us... There are many more who need to learn this lesson, but, in time hopefully that will change as well...

All the "ism's", that were referenced, were created to represent the issue they stood for in our society... It isn't that anyone has ignored them, it is just that the situation they represent has over time, improved for the better, that we don't necessarily have to shout it from the roof tops...

While there is still a long way to go to make change that would put the need to use these "ism's", out of business, sort of speak... No one has forgotten why they were created, and what they stand for in our society, and in our world.

Femininsm was around long before it became popular in the 60's... Woman worked in the textile mills of the early 1900's, helping to support, and earn a living for their families... Woman of the 40's, went to work in male dominated jobs, because their country asked them too, in order to support the troops, and the fact that most men had gone off to war in World War II...

But, what resulted from that experience in the 40's, was that woman got a taste of what it was like to go beyond the bounderies of what it meant to not only be a woman. But, that a woman could do jobs previously denied to them, and do them as well as, if not better than any man...

What is a woman?... I don't believe a woman has to wear a dress, or makeup to be a woman... If she wants to wear bluejeans, rather than skirts that's her choice... As a side note, and observation, I find it amusing that some gay men who dress as woman, think that being a woman means wearing dresses, make up, and high heels... What if woman didn't, then how would they express what a woman really is... :wink:

I think woman have been so brain washed by fashion produced by MEN, that I think that sometimes woman are struggling just to figure out who they really are in this world... We have woman starving themselves to meet some ridiculous ideal of what a woman should look like in her physical appearence. We have woman who are slaves to fashion, and the so called beauty industry (make up, etc..), for what?!... Isn't the natural woman beautiful enough?... Now your seeing more commercials showing that the natural woman is perfect in her imperfections, and that this should be the norm in terms of attitudes, and outlook toward woman in our society, and our world... Honestly, when I've seen elderly woman wearing heavy makeup, that is just scary to me... Not only does it look bad, but, there simply is no reason for it... The elder woman should have learned by then, that her natural beauty, both inside, and out is what matters... But, they are from those generations that put out into society what a woman was supposed to be... Thankfully that has changed, and continues to change...

What is a woman?... To me she is just a human being, capable of doing great things given the opportunity, and though the history may not include those who did great things. We now have the chance to shine the spot light on them, and give them the recognition, respect, and dignity they deserve...

I've never been one to like anyone trying to put me in a "box", or "catagory"... I've always considered myself unique, an individual, independent, and a free thinker...

This is why I am disappointed with my mother, and her attitudes. She is just as bad, as any man who thinks a woman has to represent a certain image... My mother as far as jobs are concerned, has hated every job she's ever had, including her present job...

Even though I've repeatedly encourage her to take her artisitc talents, and turn them into a business of her own, she just never had the courage, and self confidence to do it... She stayed on the side lines, and I do see how unhappy that has made her... But, she was probably raised with old fashioned ideas of what a woman should be, and she just couldn't get them out of her mind. Break away from them to pursue something she may have found more fulfilling, and rewarding for her life...

My Dad, as I stated in another thread was more of a Feminist than my mother... He was the one to encourage me, and took great pride in my accomplishments working in male dominated careers...

One day there will no longer be the need to use the word "Feminism", along with all the other "ism's", when the reason for their creation no longer exists... Are there still struggles ahead for woman? Sure there are... As I stated in another thread, woman can't afford to be "old fashioned' in their thinking... Financially it will ruin them... The statistics now are, that 80% of woman in the US, will retire to poverty... Traditional marriage has a failure rate of 60%, and like I stated before. Woman no longer have the luxury of thinking in old fashioned, traditional terms... Somewhere down the road, it will cost her dearly if she continues to think this way... It is just a simple fact of life now...

Woman used to be valued by men for the dowry they would bring to a relationship... Now, men look at woman in terms of value, as to what career they have in order to impress them, and bring to that relationship. Since in today's society, if you do get into a relationship that is leading toward marriage. It is just a fact that most couples will both have to work to support their union... They both have to bring home the bacon, just to survive, and thrive...

As for woman as president. England has had, and still has a Queen, and had a female Prime Minister... It is the US that is lagging behind in this area... Maybe it was easier for Britains to adjust to a female Prime Minister, because throughout their thousands of years of history, they have had Queens in the top job... America from the beginning has never given a woman that same superior role, and power...

Maybe it is time for that to change as well... As for the candidate, whether Hillary, or any other woman. You will not know how well they will do in office, until you have given them the OPPORTUNITY, and the chance to PROVE to all of you, woman, and men alike, that they are capable, and worthy of the privileged position as President of the United States...

Hillary, or any other woman candidate can't do any worse, then what we've experienced in this country with many past male Presidents... Nixon is one example, I'm sure you can think of some others, and no one is perfect either... If you deny a woman a chance to be president with pre-judgements then you are no better than a man denying a woman a job, simply because she is a woman, and he has pre-judged her as well...

You can try to put me in that "box" and try to call me a feminist. But, I'm not... I'm just a human being trying to have a fulfilling life in this world, for the time I am here, that's all... :wink:

[larz0142]

Embrace your Feminism side...So am I to hate myself for being a man?At 31 I grew up in a time of political correctmess.Been yelled at for holding a door open for a woman and looked at crazy for saying mam. I think that women have put up with enough crap from people(both genders).IMHO I think a women who stays home to care for her children gave up no less than the one who worked..Just go by a person worth and morales not sex the country would be better off..I don't care if my boss is a female just that they do their job right and I don't have to play clean up for them..male or female or both or whatever they are..just don't man hate and I'm cool..cuz I'm not that man!!!

[RedRaven]

Originally Posted by larz0142

Embrace your Feminism side...So am I to hate myself for being a man?At 31 I grew up in a time of political correctmess.Been yelled at for holding a door open for a woman and looked at crazy for saying mam. I think that women have put up with enough crap from people(both genders).IMHO I think a women who stays home to care for her children gave up no less than the one who worked..Just go by a person worth and morales not sex the country would be better off..I don't care if my boss is a female just that they do their job right and I don't have to play clean up for them..male or female or both or whatever they are..just don't man hate and I'm cool..cuz I'm not that man!!!

No one is saying they hate men... I don't know why you would assume such a thing... It's like that saying... "Hate the message, not the messenger"... :lol: :wink:

I have a father I've looked up to in most respects, most of my life.
In a working environment I prefer to either work with men, or by myself (again, no offense ladies)... :wink:
Most of my friends have been men, though I also have a few female friends, and I date men...

So, you won't find me to be a "man hater"... What I can say is, that in some situations men have disappointed me in the work place... Because they denied me opportunities to advance, that would have led to better pay, and new challenges... But, you know what you do when that happens... You move on...

You find a better job, and get the better pay, and when the former employer realizes what they've lost, they have no one to blame but themselves...

I had that happen at 2 jobs... I was asked to come back to work for them again... I told them why I left, that they should have given me the opportunities for advancement, or more pay... So, it was their own fault...

I left feeling pretty good about myself... While they had to deal with people they hired to replace me, that were not working out, and didn't work half as hard as I did there... In one case the employer had to hire 2 men to do the job, that I did as one woman... :lol: :roll:

I won't say this happens often, but, I also get the impression that sometimes if you are too good at your job, employers would rather keep you in that position rather than have you advance, simply because you do that job very well, and they know it is sometimes difficult to find good people who are willing to work as hard as you do...

So, you never know, exactly what the "bosses" reasons are for denying you advancement... I've seen this done to one friend of mine who is a man...

Takes time, and training to teach someone your old job, when you move forward... Some employers are reluctant to do so, and thus want to try to keep you in that position... But, the fact is that you as the employee should get the opportunity, training, education, to advance, and earn more pay... That's what it is about, when you go off to work every day...

Unless your just happy with your current position in the company, and have no interest in pursuing a new position, or a new challenge...

Though I would also say that if you are not receiving advancement, or better pay, and you are doing a good job, and work hard... To go to your boss, and tell them you want a raise, and why you deserve one, if they want to keep you in that position... If you know they value your work, and don't want to lose you, they will give you the raise...

I have no problem talking directly to a boss, and asking for a raise, sometimes more than once a year, if I feel I'm doing the job they want me to do, working hard, and even putting in extra time, and effort without being asked, to do tasks that are not even my responsibility. Showing them I'm worth keeping around... I haven't had a boss refuse me a raise, though I may have been denied an opportunity for advancement... But, in the end you take the money, if your comfortable with it fine... If it still isn't enough you talk to the boss again, and tell them what you would like to pursue in terms of advancement... If they then still won't give you that opportunity, then you move on...

I am in the business of financially supporting myself... It doesn't matter how nice the people are, or the working conditions. What matters is what goes in the bank... You can like where you work, and stay there if your not interested in advancing financially, but, that's not me... I may drop by once in a while to visit, and see how everyone has been, since I left... But, it is all about making a living... I left one job after several years there, and they couldn't find anyone to replace me... They couldn't find anyone who had the knowledge, or experience to do the job, and so they (the bosses), had to do the job themselves...

In some respects it is like an unintended sweet revenge, since they were not willing to either give you the raise you asked for, or the advancement you asked for, that would have also given you higher earnings...

This is why honestly, now that I'm older, if you really want to make money, you really have to find a way to work for yourself... That way your not wasting years of your life playing the wage game with employers, or waiting for that yearly raise to come around, hoping it will be what you expect...

While working for yourself can be difficult, challenging, and somedays make you wish you'd simply gone to work for someone else... It has greater rewards then you can ever imagine... You set your own hours, you are in charge, and as long as you've found a way to make your business a success, no one can take that away from you... Yes, you'll work harder than you did for any employer, but, when the big money starts rolling in, you'll forget all about it...

What's even better is that you can schedule when you want to take time off... Your not confined to 2 weeks out of the year for vacation. You can take as many weeks as you want, when ever you want. So long as you've arranged your work load accordingly... You may have more to do once you return from your vacation, but, it certainly will be worth it... :wink:

The best thing anyone can do, whether male, or female who work, is to find a way to start, and run your own business... You'll never have to deal with another employer who just isn't "enlightened", let's say, to what equality, opportunity, and advancement means to all their employees...

[4roses]

:roll:

[larz0142]

I'm kidding...Kinda I'm just accustom the females of my generation bashing men when it was cool in the 90's and now have problems finding "a good man to love"..lol.That's because while they were bashing us we found the ones that understood it's not us that they need to rebel against, it all the ol timers that ran everything..So they are stuck with the ones who stay home all day and play video games..Thier dads were the ol timers...But time's are a change'n.In the late 90's early 00's there was a movement of the femminst that stated men need to be loved not bashed..As the ol timmers are faded out and the influx of the female takes hold..Dudes like me sit back and laugh..It's fun for me to watch all the older guys fight the system and be replaced...Ladies I truly respect the ones who paved the way and the ones who still are paveing the way.(that I'm not kidding aboot)

[Popeye]

Ok I know this post has been dead for a bit, but I have a question :?: I used to manage auto repair shops for a large chain. Over the 11 yrs I had hired "5" female auto technician. They were all entry level tech's fresh out of tech school and qualified from that stand point.

After the same interview process that I always used these are the ones that were hired. Well 2 quit within 2 weeks claiming that the conditions were too dirty and hot (this was the summer in Chicago area) and that no one would help them with lifting things like the tires to back on the cars :?: .

One got pregnant so I moved her upfront as a sales person until she left for maternity, she then decided to not return to take care of her child (this I had no problem with except that she was a good employee :cry: ).

Another was a great tech especially with drivability problems, but she fit the feminist appearence stereotype. She left to move to SoCal so that leaves the last one.

This one was lazy, but not stupid. She would flirt (literally sit on their tool boxes and cross her legs and giggle and toss her hair) around with the male techs to get them to do her work (as a down side to the males of the world this worked ops: ). She would call in sick about twice a month. She also had issues following company guidelines for torquing wheels and double checking oil levels (more to follow on this). When I approached her with this and tried to fire her for attendence and failure to follow directions the district mgr. said I could not because she had called and said she was being discriminated against :twisted: . So I put up with her for another month or so and finally was able to let her go due to not torquing the lugnuts on a car that the wheel came off of (this cost me $7500 in personal bonus money :evil: and the company was sued for over a million because of personal injury and "future fear of driving :roll: " stated by the plaintiffs legal staff). My point is with the last one that if she had not been female I could have gotten rid of her no problems and prevented this costly and tragic outcome. I truly beleive that this is why some people are hesitant to hire minorities in any field of work is that they are afraid if they do the right thing which would be to give them a fair chance to prove they can do the job they will not be able to do anything about it if the applicant can not.

Now I know that these are no more of a problem then I had over time with male techs but with them I could get rid of them with a couple of simple write ups. I know that the entire gender can not be judged on one example but I can tell you that it certainly made me hesitatant to hire another female in that industry which is really sad :cry: .

So now after all this can you tell me what I did wrong or what can be done better to EQUAL out all sides of employment.

Sorry about the long post, but I get I little heated at this subject. :wink:

[RedRaven]

Originally Posted by Popeye

Ok I know this post has been dead for a bit, but I have a question :?: I used to manage auto repair shops for a large chain. Over the 11 yrs I had hired "5" female auto technician. They were all entry level tech's fresh out of tech school and qualified from that stand point.



After the same interview process that I always used these are the ones that were hired. Well 2 quit within 2 weeks claiming that the conditions were too dirty and hot (this was the summer in Chicago area) and that no one would help them with lifting things like the tires to back on the cars :?: .

One got pregnant so I moved her upfront as a sales person until she left for maternity, she then decided to not return to take care of her child (this I had no problem with except that she was a good employee :cry: ).

Another was a great tech especially with drivability problems, but she fit the feminist appearence stereotype. She left to move to SoCal so that leaves the last one.

This one was lazy, but not stupid. She would flirt (literally sit on their tool boxes and cross her legs and giggle and toss her hair) around with the male techs to get them to do her work (as a down side to the males of the world this worked ops: ). She would call in sick about twice a month. She also had issues following company guidelines for torquing wheels and double checking oil levels (more to follow on this). When I approached her with this and tried to fire her for attendence and failure to follow directions the district mgr. said I could not because she had called and said she was being discriminated against :twisted: . So I put up with her for another month or so and finally was able to let her go due to not torquing the lugnuts on a car that the wheel came off of (this cost me $7500 in personal bonus money :evil: and the company was sued for over a million because of personal injury and "future fear of driving :roll: " stated by the plaintiffs legal staff). My point is with the last one that if she had not been female I could have gotten rid of her no problems and prevented this costly and tragic outcome. I truly beleive that this is why some people are hesitant to hire minorities in any field of work is that they are afraid if they do the right thing which would be to give them a fair chance to prove they can do the job they will not be able to do anything about it if the applicant can not.

Now I know that these are no more of a problem then I had over time with male techs but with them I could get rid of them with a couple of simple write ups. I know that the entire gender can not be judged on one example but I can tell you that it certainly made me hesitatant to hire another female in that industry which is really sad :cry: .

So now after all this can you tell me what I did wrong or what can be done better to EQUAL out all sides of employment.

Sorry about the long post, but I get I little heated at this subject. :wink:

I worked in an automotive repair shop years ago. I didn't have formal training, and learned both on my own, and on the job... I was denied advancement, and paid schooling, and that was in the early 80's... I worked hard, to the point I literally broke my back on the job. There were 3 Male mechanics who ended up literally breaking their backs on the job at well... Working conditions were not OSHA safe. But, we worked very hard, and at no time did I as a woman do anything but work hard, and be professional...

You can find "slackers", in any business, both male, and female. So, your complaint doesn't hold water... You hire anyone fresh out of school, who has no experience, and no work history, and you are bound to find those who are willing to work hard, and those who are not willing to do so...

As for laws protecting woman, and discrimination. If the laws had been there when I worked in the garage, I'm sure I could have claimed discrimination based on unequal wages, denied requested formal training/schooling (which would have been paid by the company, and was for other "male" employees). I could have sued, and probably won based on what happened to me... But, back then there were not the laws to protect woman, or as you put it "minorities", in the work place...

The truth is that woman are not the minority in this country. We are over 50% of the entire population. The minority in fact would be men... But, because of how our society functioned in the past, woman did not enter the work force. They stayed home, and cared for their children... Today woman work, not only because they may want too, but, in most cases because they have too... Most married couples, and families, both husband, and wife have to work to support the family these days... It isn't a choice anymore, it is a necessity...

The problems you experienced should not be based on the gender of the individual. Rather they should be based on the individual themselves...

If you want to see serious failure on the part of "male" workers, just look at the state of Massachusetts, and the billions of dollars they spent on that "Big Dig" project there... They had a woman killed by falling concrete in a tunnel that had been designed, and built by men... The victims family sued both the State, and the Federal Government. So, what are you complaining about...

If you don't properly instruct, train, and discuss your company policy, and what you expect in professonal behavior with all your employees, then maybe you should consider doing so, in future. Both genders can exibit bad behavior, and if you are a responsible "boss", you correct issues before they get out of control... It sounds like you may not have been respected in your position. A good "boss", learns how to manage people. It just appears that you didn't have good management of these employees... There are always two sides to a story, we are only getting your side of it... Don't blame all for the mistakes of a few...

If you want to do better, attend more management classes, and realize that woman in the work place with men as their boss, are still subject to sexual harassment, and other bad working conditions, that it maybe more difficult to fire a woman. But, because woman have been denied opportunity, and equal treatment for so long, that the law has recognized this, and put in place laws to protect them...

If you don't want to pay for experienced workers, and are hiring kids right out of tech school, then sometimes you get what you pay for... Not all, but, I'm sure a few do not have a work history to begin with, and possibly being their first full time job, are simply undisiplined... You as a qualified manager have to be able to deal with, train, and educate these workers... If they still can't follow your instruction, then indeed they have to go... Document the problems, and what you've tried to do to resolve the issues. If that doesn't work, then you will have written documentation to use toward firing them... When I left the garage, they had to hire 2 men to do my job. Meaning I exceeded expectations, and job demands, and worked twice as hard as any man... So, don't discriminate against woman, because of a few bad experiences. There are many examples of both genders who have failed to do their jobs in a professional, responsible manner. It is up to you to interview, and screen potential employees, and find those who will give you the job performance you expect...