[Twilight Flyer]

The Bible is a largely fictional tome with some elements of truth. While there are certain elements which can be supported through the sciences, there were no talking snakes, talking / burning bushes, or talking donkeys.

And you know that how?

Consider the ramifications of believing that something written by hundreds of prophets (authors) over thousands of years is nothing more than an elaborate fictional work. That alone simply doesn’t fly.

However, more importantly is that you stating your belief that it is fiction is no different than a believer stating his belief that it is the word of God. However, a believer believes it to be the word of God primarily because the spirit has testified that it is true, while a non-believer does not have the same spirit testifying that it is not. Of course, you can argue that point if you like, but it does not change the fact that in the end, you have no more physical proof that it is false than a believer has physical proof that it is true.

That’s where faith comes in. One either has it, or one doesn’t. Eventually, everyone will find out if they were right or wrong.

[Windwalker]

Originally Posted by Useless

The Bible is a largely fictional tome with some elements of truth. While there are certain elements which can be supported through the sciences, there were no talking snakes, talking / burning bushes, or talking donkeys.

And the people in Mexico can argue that there are no "Northern Lights". They don't exist. Yet, those of us that have been to the northern USA and Canada can tell that we have seen them many times. I have never seen the sun shine for more than 24 hours straight, but do I believe that there are places on this earth where that does happen every year? Yes. Just because I do not get to see it, does not mean it does not happen.

Originally Posted by Useless

While it does have some truth to certain parts of it, and while there are some things to be gained from studying it, it was largely co-opted by man for the purpose of empowering the few to reign and rule over the masses.

Actually, even if you take GOD out of it (and you can do that. Really. It's done every day. ), it is still a reasonably accurate record of one segment of mankind's existence on this earth. If it were not, Archeology would not be using it to locate places to dig for artifacts.

The ancient city of Sodom was destroyed by fire and brimstone. Today, they've found the location and there is evidence of great heat. There is natural glass found in the sand. Know how much heat it takes to do that? It's also found at nuclear test sites. But, there were no nuclear weapons back in the days when the city was destroyed. Where did all that heat come from? And, how did one man know it was time to leave town?

Even if you take GOD out of it, there is still far more truth to it than you seem to give it credit for.

[Twilight Flyer]

Feels like a good time to resurrect this thread because the topic is extremely relevant today.

How many of you believers are watching what is happening today in relation to the prophecies regarding the last days in Revelations, Ezekiel, Daniel, etc.

On the natural front, have you ever seen such a run of large tremblers than we have seen in the past couple months. Haiti, Chile, Japan, Indonesia, Turkey, even LA got hit with a smaller 4.4 the other day.

Have you ever seen such wild and violent weather, nationwide, that we have experienced over the past few months? Sure, we have had some big storms, but I don’t remember a time when they were coming one right after another like they have this year.

On the political front, our government is ready to pass a bill with no vote, utterly circumventing the Constitution and the freedoms this country was founded on. It’s the biggest power grab this country has ever seen and firmly sets us in the realm of a dictatorship. I would challenge ANY liberal to support the passing of a bill that the people of this country are overwhelmingly against (over 70% at the last poll I saw), with no vote. You know that if it were a different issue and a different president, you would be beside yourself with rage. How you can watch this travesty unfold and still support your president and your government is absolutely beyond me.

Our government has turned against Israel, siding with her enemies in all things political. People can make of that what they will, but it will only lead to one thing. If we continue to turn our back on Israel (one of our country’s greatest allies), Israel will eventually tell us to bugger off and take care of things in their own way. They will take out Iran, plain and simple. Imanutjob came out again two days ago and again stated that Israel would be annihilated. Israel has gone on record stating they will not allow Iran to have nuclear weapons. Russia has gone on record stating they will back Iran. If Israel hits Iran, Russia will come south. In Ezekiel, that’s referred to as Gog of Magog and will be one of the biggest Biblical end-times prophecies to come to pass.

Now I already know that the non-believers are going to scoff at that and frankly, that’s your right. But it doesn’t change the path this country is on and the path the world is on. If things continue to happen the way they are happening on the world stage, those Biblical prophecies will happen because there is no other choices before the players in the game.

We are on the cusp of some of the greatest calamities – political and natural – that history has ever seen. Make of it what you will, but the smart money is on the inevitability of the wheels that are now in motion.

[matcat]

Originally Posted by Twilight Flyer

If things continue to happen the way they are happening on the world stage, those Biblical prophecies will happen because there is no other choices before the players in the game.

There is nothing that can be done to stop it, it is exactly as it is supposed to be.

[Twilight Flyer]

There is nothing that can be done to stop it, it is exactly as it is supposed to be.

Exactly.

However, non-believers will not see it that way, even though many will agree that we have come to a point where there is no other alternative. They will see it as an inevitability of the political and world stage and claim that there simply is no other way. Americans will revolt because of our desire to remain free. Israel will take out Iran because of their desire to not be annihilated. Russia will go against Israel because of their desire to support their ally. China will involve themselves (and their 200 million man army) in the conflict simply because it will be their opportunity to emerge on top.

All of this will happen because countries and citizens have set their courses and locked themselves in and a lot of non-believers will agree with it. However, ask them if they find it a little odd that all of this has been prophesied in a book several thousand years old that they do not believe in.

Crickets.

Can we change our course? Sure we can – people from the highest government officials to the lowest common peasant still have freedom to choose their actions and thus, the consequences (major and minor) of those actions. But will we change our course? Not likely. And if we do not, I wonder if the chorus of “we told you so” does much to change the hearts of man?

[GMAN]

Try as they may, non believers have NEVER been able to disprove the Bible. My Bible teacher in elementary school used to tell us that every time someone tried to disprove the Bible they wound up proving what was written as truth.

Whether you believe in God or not, we can see the prophesies of the Christian Bible as coming to pass. Things started to fall into place once Israel once again became a state in 1948. If we fast forward to today we can see the prophesies being revealed. I will paraphrase some things that I remember being mentioned as being signs of the last days.

-Israel becomes a nation (this generation will not pass)
-Wars and rumors of wars.
-Changes in climate. Unexplained and strange weather. (earthquakes, fires,
floods, severe storms, etc., )
-Men turning to men and women turning to women (homosexuality)
-Children disrespecting their parents.
-There are a number of other events that have and are taking place that are
mentioned in the prophesies.

The best that I can tell the United States is not mentioned in the Revelations. That tells me that for the final prophesies to come to pass that the U.S. must fall. The United States has been the largest economic force in the world with the strongest military might the world has seen. It is next to impossible for another military to destroy this country without destroying itself. For America to fall there needs to be an economic crisis of monumental proportions. Events need to be put in place to encourage Americans to trade their freedom for security. For decades our government has been chipping away at our freedoms. With 9/11 there was an introduction of a national police force and the patriot act which further eroded our freedoms.

If you look at what is happening to this country at this time in history, you need to wonder if this country is on the verge of falling. We have our first dictatorship with a president and congress who has decided to rule without thought to what the people want. In the past a president was known as a leader. This president wants to rule. No matter what a dictator calls himself, a dictator is still a dictator. We need to follow the money on their decisions. I don't believe this country can or will survive under any other system other than a representative republic. We don't live under a democracy, but a representative republic. The people are strongly against the policies of this administration. It is the only time that I can remember in my lifetime where a president and congress have conspired to work so diligently against the will of the people.

Events are being put in place. We need to do what we can to circumvent what these people are doing to our country. What they are doing is treasonous. Dictatorships of the past have all followed the same mantra. They pit one group against another. It is primarily the rich against the poor. Hitler, Stalin and others have all used the same tactics. They get to the youth at an early age so that they can brainwash them and rewrite history to reflect their view of the world. They get the cooperation of the media to suppress any opposition. Fortunately for us, we have some alternative media where we can get the truth. That is the only saving grace to our time in history.

You don't have to believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, but if you read Revelations and Daniel you can get a pretty good idea of what is to come. You can't help but wonder how all these things could have been foretold thousands of years ago.

[Jackrabbit379]

I never knew this thread was here. I guess I've over-looked it. I just went through the thread, and to answer Windwalker's question... I believe in the Bible. I believe it is God's Holy word. I am a Christian. I accepted Christ as my Savior when I was 9 years old. I am Southern Baptist. Saying that, I will also tell you that I am not perfect. I (we) have a sinful nature. I say things that I shouldn't. I curse at times. I am short tempered, and there have been times that I have said or done things that I did without thinking.

A lot of people will say, 'the Bible was written by men'. True, but the prophets, the disciples, and writers were inspired of God. 2 Timothy 3:16 - All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;


I also believe that there is a reason why we have all these weather disasters. Some may say, "Would God really destroy these people, and countries, etc? Why would God do such a thing." I think about Revelation 2:4-5 - Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.
I reckon that applies to us, 2000 years later. I also think about the Israelites, when they made the golden calf, after they were rescued from Egypt.
Exodus 32:9-14 - "I have seen these people," the LORD said to Moses, "and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation."
11 But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. "O LORD," he said, "why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, 'It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth'? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.' " 14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

As far as the politics goes, and where our country is going? I have no idea. I don't know what's going to happen. I can't keep up with it all. There are so many things that is trying to get passed it's unreal. I think, Congress, (or whoever is in charge of impeaching) should impeach Obama before he ruins this great nation. I'm sure I will get some flack for saying that, but I think the standards, all the great things this country was founded on is going out the window. I'm praying that God will keep this nation together, and keep it from falling apart.

[GMAN]

Originally Posted by Jackrabbit379

As far as the politics goes, and where our country is going? I have no idea. I don't know what's going to happen. I can't keep up with it all. There are so many things that is trying to get passed it's unreal. I think, Congress, (or whoever is in charge of impeaching) should impeach Obama before he ruins this great nation. I'm sure I will get some flack for saying that, but I think the standards, all the great things this country was founded on is going out the window. I'm praying that God will keep this nation together, and keep it from falling apart.

This country has largely turned it's back on God. We have murdered millions of babies in this country. We call it abortion, but it is killing an innocent life, nonetheless. We are taught in the Bible that unless we work we should not eat, but we have allowed the government to encourage non productive behavior where others we reward and feed those who are unwilling to take care of themselves or their families. We have allowed our government to dictate how and where we can worship. We can't even put a nativity scene in our yards or in a public park without the ACLU and the government getting involved. The constitution states that the government may not infringe on our right to worship, yet they do. The Bible calls homosexuality an abomination, but we now allow homosexuals to marry and hold positions of responsibility. Adultery and promiscuity is rampant and we seem to have an epidemic of pedophiles running loose. Many are associated with churches. Children no longer honor their parents and parents no longer discipline their children (spare the rod and spoil the child).

Prayer can change people and the hearts of men. It can change our country. I would not want to rely on congress to change things. They seem to be determined to destroy the foundation of this country. America is unlike any other country that has ever existed. God blessed this country for several centuries. There have been trials, but with God we came through and prospered. We have now turned our backs on God. God will not bless this country if we do not worship and put him first. I heard a minister mention once that he thought that God has taken his hand off America. I think that perhaps he was right.

This congress is not going to impeach Obama. They are all in bed together. It is about power and the move toward a one world government. The U.S. has stood in the way of this from happening. For things to move forward America will need to fall or become like much of Europe and many of the other industrialized nations with their dependence on government.

[Windwalker]

Originally Posted by Jackrabbit379

I never knew this thread was here. I guess I've over-looked it. I just went through the thread, and to answer Windwalker's question... I believe in the Bible. I believe it is God's Holy word. I am a Christian. I accepted Christ as my Savior when I was 9 years old. I am Southern Baptist. Saying that, I will also tell you that I am not perfect. I (we) have a sinful nature. I say things that I shouldn't. I curse at times. I am short tempered, and there have been times that I have said or done things that I did without thinking.

A lot of people will say, 'the Bible was written by men'. True, but the prophets, the disciples, and writers were inspired of God. 2 Timothy 3:16 - All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;


I also believe that there is a reason why we have all these weather disasters. Some may say, "Would God really destroy these people, and countries, etc? Why would God do such a thing." I think about Revelation 2:4-5 - Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.
I reckon that applies to us, 2000 years later. I also think about the Israelites, when they made the golden calf, after they were rescued from Egypt.
Exodus 32:9-14 - "I have seen these people," the LORD said to Moses, "and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation."
11 But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. "O LORD," he said, "why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, 'It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth'? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.' " 14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

As far as the politics goes, and where our country is going? I have no idea. I don't know what's going to happen. I can't keep up with it all. There are so many things that is trying to get passed it's unreal. I think, Congress, (or whoever is in charge of impeaching) should impeach Obama before he ruins this great nation. I'm sure I will get some flack for saying that, but I think the standards, all the great things this country was founded on is going out the window. I'm praying that God will keep this nation together, and keep it from falling apart.

Welcome aboard. Be sure to join us in June of 09...:smokin:

The whole point of the thread was not to discredit the Bible. Instead, it was to look at our own preception of it. Do we take it chapter and verse, word for word? Or do we understand that there may have been changes in the meanings of some parts, and even parts left out as things were translated from one language to another. We also have to look at the level of technology of the authors of the Bible, and the wording and explanations they had available to them, to explain what happened in and around their society. We all grew up with the picture of the waters of the Red Sea, a huge wall of water on either side of a pathway across the bottom of the sea. Not accurate. Archeology now has the evidence that it was not the Red Sea, but some 70 miles north at the Reed Sea. But, both bodies of water enjoyed exactly the same spelling in the language of the Hebrews at he time of Exodus.

The Biblical "Time Frame" is also out of step. According to Biblical experts, the Flood of Noah happened in November of 2345 BC. Yet, while archeology and geology both confirm that the flood certainly did happen, the physical evidence (clay deposits near the tops of mountains that could only have gotten there by flood waters.) states that it happened in 2845 BC. While the Bible would have us believe that the flood was universal and only Noah and his family survived the flood, a colony of Cro-Magnon survived into the 15th century AD on the Canary Islands. (Cro-Magnon reigned upon the earth from 40,000 BC to 8,000 BC in the rest of the world. Then, modern man, "our species" took over.) They were about slaughtered by the Spanish in the second half of the 15th century. So, the Flood of Noah could not have affected the entire world. And, if you think about it, a flood caused by rain does not do much to the sediment at the bottom of a lake. So, even raining for 40 days and 40 nights would not have brought the clay up to the tops of the mountains.

However, recently, science has uncovered evidence that a comet struck the earth some distance east of Madagascar. While they can not say just how large the comet was, computer models of a comet striking the Pacific one hundred miles west of San Francisco would produce enough heat to incinerate the city, and generate a tsunami that would destroy about one half of the earth's population. That would be for a comet about 3 miles in diameter. They come smaller, but they also come larger. It would make the one tsunami (this century) that killed thousands along the Asian Coastline look like a ripple on a pond.

The comet that struck the earth happened about 4800 years ago. Now, do the math. About 2845 BC that the clay deposits were left near the tops of mountains by a flood. Plus 2000 years AD. About 4800 years ago. Scientifically, that's close enough to be in the same church, same pew, same preacher, and the same service. Now, look at the location of the Canary Islands. They have an entire continent between them and the impact zone. All they got was weeks of rain. So, Noah and his family were not the only survivors. They were simply the only survivors in the "known world". It would also explain how a flood could cover mountain tops, when there is not enough water in the whole world to raise the ocean above the waist of the Statue of Liberty.

And, it does not end there. There are many more instances where science agrees, and even corrects the timing of the Bible, but this is enough to chew on for now.

[Slimland]

Originally Posted by golfhobo

A simple point of debate, Slim....

As we discussed once (with my Dad's help,) the Apocrypha and other books were not "cannonized" because they simply didn't rise to the level of "certification" that the other books did.

This is NOT "putting GOD in a box." It is, if anything, putting MAN'S writings in a box.

ANYONE could have written anything they wanted, and claimed it was "inspired" or truthful.

The books that are included in the Holy Bible are the ones that could be "certified" as being true to gospel, and inspired by God (and mostly written by his apostles.) If the Catholics are good at ANYTHING.... it is research and authentication! :lol2:

This does not mean that I wouldn't find something interesting in the Apocrypha.... IF I ever took the time to read it. I am only saying that I don't find that the "cannonized" version of the Bible necessarily puts GOD in a box.

I think those who rely on "other writings" are searching for something they can't FIND in the Bible. I have no problem with that. I like to read Plato and Socrates.

In general though, I agree with you that MAN can never understand the enormity of GOD.... IF there is such a being.

In truth, however.... I believe that ALL history is "revisionist." ALL writings are perspectively biased. ALL "theories" are just that.

Anyone who lives their life based on what they were TOLD to believe, has already surrendered FREE WILL.... and risks losing at least SOME part of their potential.

I know this thread is old, but I just seen it since I have been gone.

Yes we did talk of this Hobo, but I am remembering that in the new test, that I believe it was Peter, Jude, and a few of the others who quoted from the book of Enoch which is in the Apocrypha.
Example:

Jude 1

14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Thus in my opinion these men who decided to take away from the word because something didn't fit there test I guess didn't see this. But what do I know it is just my opinion.

Good to talk to ya again!