[GMAN]

Originally Posted by MichiganDriver

What I assume is that we've all gotten soft. I've been checking my local craigslist since the beginning of the recession and there have been jobs available all along. It's mind boggling the number of people that have lost their homes due to lack of a job and otr trucking still pays pretty well and they aren't the least bit interested. Being away from home for days and weeks is too big a price to pay for being financially solvent I suppose.

Whether it's EOBRs or DOT cutting our hours I don't think we'll see a cut in pay. In fact, I think our pay is going up regardless. The softer America gets the better it is for people who are willing to work.

There is little need to look for work or take a job when you have your unemployment benefits extended again and again. One problem is that some people refuse to consider anything outside of their current field or area of expertise. If you don't have any money coming in you are much more likely to take what you can get to put food on the table. There are not as many people who want to work, but many who want a paycheck.

[MichiganDriver]

Originally Posted by GMAN

There is little need to look for work or take a job when you have your unemployment benefits extended again and again. One problem is that some people refuse to consider anything outside of their current field or area of expertise. If you don't have any money coming in you are much more likely to take what you can get to put food on the table. There are not as many people who want to work, but many who want a paycheck.

There is truth in what you say. But not 100% percent of the time. Compassion for those that truly need the unemployment insurance as well as the particular phase of the boom/bust cycle (need for stimulus) that we're in atm trumps what you're saying imo.

As for EOBRs, if we put it in supply and demand terms...

Let's assume the demand for drivers is unchanged going forward (we know that's false coming out of a recession, but what the F).

As one news article after another is pointing out, the expected supply of drivers is expected to drop sharply thanks to drivers retiring and/or having CSA2010 problems. The thing the articles that I've read aren't talking about is the lack of interest among "civilians" in becoming an otr trucker.

Supply and demand. The supply of drivers is falling and demand is steady = wages will rise. Now if the fmcsa/dot people cut our hours by 10% we'll get about 10 % less work done each week and that will boost demand for truckers by about 10 %. If EOBRs are mandated and we get another 10 % less work done each week and that will boost demand for truckers by yet another 10%.

Supply of drivers is going to get hammered while demand is increasing and we should make considerably more per hour. Will we make more per week? Yup, that's my 2 cents worth of opinion (but I wouldn't bet the farm, the rich and their Republican puppets in congress have been sticking it to blue collar workers for 30 years and, well, you know... I've found that firmly grasping each kneecap when I'm bent over helps prepare me for what's about to happen).

[GMAN]

The democrats have been "sticking" it to the working man just as much as any of the republicans. It isn't a party issue, it is money and power. Democratic tactics are merely a little different, but just as corrupt.

Historically, when demand for certain types of labor increase to the point where not enough natives can be found to do the work, industry has gone outside the country to recruit workers. The American railroad industry is a good example. Industrialists brought in Chinese workers to do manual labor and they helped build the railroads, especially in the western U.S.

At other times in history, workers have been brought in from other countries. If there are problems finding qualified drivers then carriers will go to Mexico or other countries to find workers. Tyson and other U.S. companies are already bringing in workers from Mexico to work in their processing plants. Most Americans either have no interest or have other work they can do. Tyson needs workers so they can get a waiver to bring in workers. Most likely there are many who are not brought in legally.

If it gets to the point where a sufficient number of drivers cannot be found, then you can expect carriers to go outside the country to recruit drivers. That may already be happening. Pay could rise temporarily, but when people who are brought in from outside the country we could actually see an over capacity, which would lower demand and wages. This industry will adapt to a changing labor market. Competition has kept rates and labor rates lower than they probably should be based upon past wages after factoring in inflation.

[MichiganDriver]

Originally Posted by GMAN

The democrats have been "sticking" it to the working man just as much as any of the republicans. It isn't a party issue, it is money and power. Democratic tactics are merely a little different, but just as corrupt.

Historically, when demand for certain types of labor increase to the point where not enough natives can be found to do the work, industry has gone outside the country to recruit workers. The American railroad industry is a good example. Industrialists brought in Chinese workers to do manual labor and they helped build the railroads, especially in the western U.S.

At other times in history, workers have been brought in from other countries. If there are problems finding qualified drivers then carriers will go to Mexico or other countries to find workers. Tyson and other U.S. companies are already bringing in workers from Mexico to work in their processing plants. Most Americans either have no interest or have other work they can do. Tyson needs workers so they can get a waiver to bring in workers. Most likely there are many who are not brought in legally.

If it gets to the point where a sufficient number of drivers cannot be found, then you can expect carriers to go outside the country to recruit drivers. That may already be happening. Pay could rise temporarily, but when people who are brought in from outside the country we could actually see an over capacity, which would lower demand and wages. This industry will adapt to a changing labor market. Competition has kept rates and labor rates lower than they probably should be based upon past wages after factoring in inflation.

There it is, right there.

So I was typing in my little ditty thinking I had a pretty good handle on it and when I got to the end it hit me. I couldn't put me finger on what, but I knew something was wrong. A blue collar industry like trucking suddenly experiencing higher wages 30 years into the Reagan Revolution? I realized I had to be missing something and your post lays it out with 20/20 vision. Good post! :thumbsup:

[Copperhead]

Originally Posted by GMAN

I rarely sleep more than 5-6 hours. I never use an alarm because I have an internal clock that will wake me after 5-6 hours. I have tried to sleep longer, but if I sleep for 8 hours then I feel groogy all day. It is like I have a giant hangover. I understand that there are some people who need 8 hours or more sleep to function. My wife is one of them. That is why we should allow drivers to sleep when they are tired and work when they feel rested. Sleep deprivation or debt can be a problem. Of course, the real problem is that everyone has a different clock. In my case, I would be more dangerous and less alert on the highway if I were forced to get 8 hours or more of sleep. Someone such as my wife would be a hazard with only 5 hours of sleep. We all need a certain amount of sleep. Since the amount of rest is different with each individual, it makes little sense to have a fixed amount of time that a driver must rest to make the public safe.

I am the same. That is why I use the 8 and 2 split quite frequently. I use the 8 for actual rest time and I use the 2 later on for dock time or awake and out of the cab personal use time. Sure not like the old split sleeper, but it does work ok for most of my time.

[Musicman]

Originally Posted by Freedhardwoods

Mark Reddig on Landline Now (OOIDA's radio show) said that the fmcsa is required to read every comment that is sent to them and encouraged people to send in their comments.

I have been a member of OOIDA for 17 or 18 years. Many of the members, including me, actually do something about the problems we face besides just whine about it. That is why we have so much influence.

I don't expect to point out something about cheating that they don't know, but as Mark and others have said, if you have facts to back up what you are saying, your letter can make a difference. I am doing research before I even start writing my comment. I did my research before I wrote my comment about the rule changes, which is why several local companies took copies of my letter for their employees and drivers to sign and and send in. People that do nothing but rant get little attention from anyone.

The government is SUPPOSED to do a lot of things, but they don’t, do they?

You just have to remember that government’s involvement in our industry is NOT, I repeat NOT about safety. It is ultimately about appearing to the general voting populace to care about their well-being. It’s about votes, power and money. That is why OOIDA does not have close to the influence that the ATA and other larger, much better funded organizations do. It has been an undisputable fact for some time now that in truck versus car accidents the car is at fault the majority of the time. That being a fact, if it was truly about safety, wouldn’t the government be concentrating on making regulations that more strictly control POV (personally owned vehicle) traffic? They don’t do that because it would affect more VOTERS that way. John Q public would never understand that he is at fault in most of these accidents and therefore have to have EOBRs in HIS vehicles to limit HIS driving time or speed limiters that would make it impossible for him do drive over 65 mph.

[golfhobo]

I have read and re-read THIS and the other thread about the EOBR's until I am nearly blinded. I usually pick a post to "dissect" and opine on, but I can't find the right one to DO so. So, for what it's worth, I'm gonna start from scratch.

As always, I have done my research. I just finished reading the NPRM in the Federal Register for the NEW ruling.... every word of it. For the record, my comments in the "other" thread were made BEFORE the current proposal filed in January of this year. It makes reference to the 2010 ruling that I commented on, and yes.... it DOES "propose" mandatory EOBRS's for ALL CMV's that aren't subject to timecards. [which I believe is unconstitutional and flawed in its concept and basis.]

The "Lamar bill" apparently died in committee last year, but seems to have been revised in the CURRENT Congress (112th) though I saw no link or connection to that bill. But, what THEY were proposing HAS become the basis of the NEW NPRM on EOBR's.

"Woodie" was ahead of us all when he asked for info to help him compose a "comment" within the timeframe....which has expired. I believe his request for info on how to "cheat" the system was SOLELY for the purpose of DEBATING the efficacy of the bill.... NOT for the purpose of cheating the system. His safety record speaks for itself! I am sorry that I wasn't in a postiion to HELP him sooner.

But, there will be another comment period IF the NPRM becomes a proposed final ruling. I DO intend to make an argument if that happens. I found MANY contradictions in the rationale for the ruling.... and it should be NOTED that the government (as always in these cases,) is PREFERRING a different stance than the one they feel compelled to take.... they just NEED facts and opinons to consider for the "defense."

In researching the subject, I found that REAGAN started this crap, Clinton furthered it, and... as always... the MOST damage was done by our friend Dubya! [Seriously.]

But the whole thing is not as bad as many THINK it will be. Even GMAN will have 3 years AFTER June of 2012 to install such equipment. And even THEN, he could get a waiver if he asks for it!

As always, this is much to do about nothing... in a way. Through competition, the costs should come down to about that of a good GPS system by then, and there SHOULD be some savings if things work out right.

I actually LIKE "Woodie's" idea of a "graduated safety exemption" for those companies (especially small ones) that have good safety ratings, and I believe this is one of the major points that could be considered in the final ruling.

And, though Fozzy is being his usual "antagonistic" self, he has made some very important points. Like Sheepdancer, Twilight, and a few others, HE is apparently employed in a different capacity in the trucking business than those of us who are drivers or O/O's. But, it should be encumbent on the rest of us to LISTEN to him.... and consider his knowledge and opinions in OUR personal debates before forming our own opinons.

This is NOT about Constitutional Rights... (and it IS a "living document,") and I don't believe it is ALL about "the money." But, sometimes it is good to follow the money.

But, after reading the entire proposal, it is clear that ALL of your concerns have been considered. I just don't agree with ALL of their conclusions! But, if anyone thinks it is all Obama's fault, you're an IDIOT. And if you think the government shouldn't have ANY role in regulating THIS particular part of commerce, you must also think that polluting the air your children breathe, and the water they drink, and the water in the gulf of Mexico is INCONSEQUENTIAL! And THAT makes you an idiot.

And I am beginning to lose patience with IDIOTS. :lol:

/rant off. I'm busy all of a sudden. Carry on! :lol2:

[MichiganDriver]

Good post golf dude.

I started off in this thread being in favor of Woody's fight against the electronic doodad that will no doubt make us all crazy. The more I thought about it though, the more I became convinced that company drivers are allowing themselves to be taken advantage of and this electronic thinginabob might save us from ourselves.

I need saving from myself as much as the next guy. I like to keep bosses happy. There's just something about a paycheck magically deposited into my bank account each week that warms me right down to the cockels. So if I need to bend the rules just a little to get a load there on time, I'm a "team player", so I'll do it. I remember the times the boss let me go quite a few miles out of my way to visit an old friend or some other favor so I'm a "team player" and I do it.

EOBRs will stop that kind of give and take and that's a bad thing (computers in general are bad that way!). But me and most other company drivers do a lot more giving than taking and so I think they will be a net benefit.

EOBRs and the HOS changes are coming when there is upward pressure on truckdriver's wages. At least the timing is good. Maybe shipping costs will rise just a little and everyone smiles. (at least until Gman's prophecy of imported labor comes to pass) lol

One thing that will truly suck though is when the EOBR causes you to spend an extra day on the road just because you would have gone a lousy 10 minutes over. That will happen to just about every one of us at some point and it will be a rage against the machine moment.

[GMAN]

[QUOTE=golfhobo;496528]The "Lamar bill" apparently died in committee last year, but seems to have been revised in the CURRENT Congress (112th) though I saw no link or connection to that bill. But, what THEY were proposing HAS become the basis of the NEW NPRM on EOBR's.

I believe the new bill is Bill 3884.


But, there will be another comment period IF the NPRM becomes a proposed final ruling. I DO intend to make an argument if that happens. I found MANY contradictions in the rationale for the ruling.... and it should be NOTED that the government (as always in these cases,) is PREFERRING a different stance than the one they feel compelled to take.... they just NEED facts and opinions to consider for the "defense."

I hope most drivers will take the time to file a comment when the final rule comes down.

In researching the subject, I found that REAGAN started this crap, Clinton furthered it, and... as always... the MOST damage was done by our friend Dubya! [Seriously.]

I don't recall what Reagan did other than making the changeover to the CDL. At least I think it was under Reagan. I don't recall what Clinton did other than NAFTA. That was enough. I do remember that Bush made our CDL's transparent where anything that we did in a personal vehicle was visible on the CDL. Bush wasn't a friend to this industry.

But the whole thing is not as bad as many THINK it will be. Even GMAN will have 3 years AFTER June of 2012 to install such equipment. And even THEN, he could get a waiver if he asks for it!

If this does become law, I will probably wait until the last minute to spend my money unless I decide to retire or do something else before I would have to install a EOBR. I don't see them giving away waivers once this is passed. Still, it would be worth a try.

As always, this is much to do about nothing... in a way. Through competition, the costs should come down to about that of a good GPS system by then, and there SHOULD be some savings if things work out right.

Hopefully, the cost will come down with time. Perhaps I should invest in stock of companies who will be making these EOBR's.


I actually LIKE "Woodie's" idea of a "graduated safety exemption" for those companies (especially small ones) that have good safety ratings, and I believe this is one of the major points that could be considered in the final ruling.

A graduated system makes much more sense than a blanket rule which forces everyone, regardless of their safety record to install a EOBR.

This is NOT about Constitutional Rights... (and it IS a "living document,") and I don't believe it is ALL about "the money." But, sometimes it is good to follow the money.

I think one could make a Constitutional case out of this. It is done all the time with other issues. I do agree about following the money.

But, after reading the entire proposal, it is clear that ALL of your concerns have been considered. I just don't agree with ALL of their conclusions! But, if anyone thinks it is all Obama's fault, you're an IDIOT. And if you think the government shouldn't have ANY role in regulating THIS particular part of commerce, you must also think that polluting the air your children breathe, and the water they drink, and the water in the gulf of Mexico is INCONSEQUENTIAL! And THAT makes you an idiot.


QUOTE]


I would not want to blame Obama completely. He is an idiot, but I don't necessarily think that he is totally responsible for what is going on in this industry right now. But, it his appointment that is pushing this legislation. I really don't think that government has a right to force owners to put EOBR's into trucks and I don't see how this and pollution have to do with one another.

[Copperhead]

It's any wonder how we ever made it as a country when we had NO unemployment insurance, NO social security, No medicare, No medicaid, NO welfare, NO WIC programs, No FEMA for disaster relief, etc. And it wasn't all that long ago as far as the age of the country is. Most of this came about shortly before and after WWII, with the largest portion of government "aid" actually not starting until the 60's. Guess that is why they called the people before all of this stuff the "greatest generation". Now we expect the government to always be there for us like a perpetual baby sitter. We all bellyache about government intrusion into our lives, yet when things are not the way we think they should be, we holler for the government to come to our rescue.

Oh well.