Hours of Service
#121
03-04-2007, 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by golfhobo
Originally Posted by kc0iv
The real problem is the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration. They have created the biggest mess I think in a long time. There is NO reason the HOS has to be this hard. kc0iv
As to using a computer. I see nothing wrong with using a computer. I can assure you no one fully understands the HOS. Some know more than others but know one has a complete understanding. In addition as soon as someone gets a grasp on the HOS they change.
The big advantage of using a computer over doing it by hand is the better chance of checking the math. It was shown by the IRS study a couple of years ago the single cause of IRS audits was cause by simple math errors. I contend that it should be a "requirement" that every driver understands the basic HOS rules, AND can manipulate a few figures within a 24 hour clock, to fill out his own logs. Remember the movie "Wargames?" I'm just saying that I don't want a computer taking over the responsibility of logging my day, or "charging" me with a violation. Any person computer literate enough to use a DDL type program, ought to be able to count to 14. And anyone who CAN'T count to 14, probably can't or shouldn't be using a computer to record his ROD's. I'm NOT putting down anyone who is having problems with the HOS. I am here to help them. I just don't think that the resolution to the problem is to let a computer do your thinking for you. The issue of the computer saying the above poster had a 70 hour violation when he only had an 11 & 14 was because 1) there is a missing log in that 8 day period that probably is an off duty log that included the 34 hour restart, therefore the computer does not see a 34 hour break) 2) The auditor has keyed in something incorrectly. 3). The correct settings has not been selected by the IT department or log department. The keller has to be updated, if it wasn't the 11 & 14 would not have been identified. Or the driver made a mistake and the auditor assumed something which he/she should not have done. I have seen this all the time in my years of training. DDL - Is updated with all regulations as of 1-1-07 JJ Keller- Is updated with all regulations as of 1-1-07 (although their upgraded system stinks for the log auditors, and I don't suggest any auditor buying their product anymore!) Not a friendly user program @ ALL!
#122
03-04-2007, 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by Dawn
Golf: The computer helps them drivers not make addition mistakes.
The issue of the computer saying the above poster had a 70 hour violation when he only had an 11 & 14 was because 1) there is a missing log in that 8 day period that probably is an off duty log that included the 34 hour restart, therefore the computer does not see a 34 hour break)
2) The auditor has keyed in something incorrectly.
DDL - Is updated with all regulations as of 1-1-07
JJ Keller- Is updated with all regulations as of 1-1-07 (although their upgraded system stinks for the log auditors, and I don't suggest any auditor buying their product anymore!) Not a friendly user program @ ALL!
#123
03-04-2007, 02:49 PM
quote="Rev.Vassago"]
Originally Posted by Dawn
Golf: The computer helps them drivers not make addition mistakes.
The issue of the computer saying the above poster had a 70 hour violation when he only had an 11 & 14 was because 1) there is a missing log in that 8 day period that probably is an off duty log that included the 34 hour restart, therefore the computer does not see a 34 hour break)
I didn't say the poster said the log was missing: roll: I said there could be a missing log which if it so happened be the 34 hour restart log that was missing or part of it, this would cause the Keller to NOT SEE a 34 hour restart and calculate the 70 hour from the previous 7 days (which one would be missing) and if the hours totaled more than 70 then it would trigger a 70 hour violation. I pulled this from the fact I run the JJ Keller program and I know what happens that causes 70 hour violations that sometimes is not the drivers fault. Sounds to me like the auditor MAY not be looking for all possibilities of where the 70 came from. What he/she told the poster made no sense so therefore they probably have no idea? It could be possible the poster does not see what the auditor has said also.
2) the auditor has keyed in something incorrectly.
Yeah I brought this up prior; sorry I brought it up again: roll:
DDL - Is updated with all regulations as of 1-1-07
JJ Keller- Is updated with all regulations as of 1-1-07 (although their upgraded system stinks for the log auditors, and I don't suggest any auditor buying their product anymore!) Not a friendly user program @ ALL! If it found the 11 & 14 hour rule I could only assume the company updated it. Unless one thing if the driver was over his 70 hour prior to the 34 hour restart (which I have asked him) and the old rules you had to be in compliance. I doubt this to be the factor though. Actually this has to be updated since the regulation has been out for more than a year and when you renew your contract they make sure you are on the updated version, if regulations have changed. If it is an improvement upgrade it is your option to stick with the old for a while anyhow.
#124
03-04-2007, 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by Dawn
If it found the 11 & 14 hour rule I could only assume the company updated it.
Unless one thing if the driver was over his 70 hour prior to the 34 hour restart (which I have asked him) and the old rules you had to be in compliance. I doubt this to be the factor though. Actually this has to be updated since the regulation has been out for more than a year and when you renew your contract they make sure you are on the updated version, if regulations have changed. If it is an improvement upgrade it is your option to stick with the old for a while anyhow.
#125
03-04-2007, 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by golfhobo
Orangetxguy asked:
...why did I get hammered at the end of October, due to the fact that I missed a 10 hour break by 1/4 hour? That 1/4 hour, according to JJ Keller & the safety department, placed me over hours on 11, over hours on 14, and negated my 34 hour re-set, which in turn placed me in Hours violation for the entire first week of November.
In the 48 hours before my 1/4 hour mistake, I was Off duty for 10 consecutive hours, worked 11 & 1/4 hours, with a 2 hour sleeper-berth period at the 8th hour of work, was off duty for, what turned out to be, 9 & 3/4 hours, worked 9 hours, then took a 34 hour re-set. I looked over my log's after I was called in..and yes..I made that 1/4 hour mistake, which in turn negated my 34-hour re-set, due to being in violation, when I started my re-set.
1) You came "on duty" following a 10 hour consecutive break. Full CLOCKS. 2) You "worked" 8 hours (doesn't matter whether on line 3 or 4 or what combination.) 3) Then you took a 2 hour break in the sleeper. (could have been taken anywhere, it is STILL ON THE CLOCK.) 4) Then you worked another 3 1/4 hours. (again doesn't matter unless ALL 11 1/4 were drving! This would be an obvious violation.) I assume it was mixed lines 3 & 4. 5) So, adding the 11 1/4 hours working AND the 2 hour break (which is on the clock,) you are now at 13 1/4 hours since coming on duty. At this point you have TWO choices. 6) You can take a full 8 hours IN THE SLEEPER, to "combine" with your 2 hour break earlier to make a full 10 hours, in which case you'd be splitting, and would "recalculate" your NEW 14 hour clock from the END of the 2 hour break, giving you ALL BUT the 3 1/4 hours left on your NEW 14 hour clock, OR... 7) You can take a full 10 hour break on either line 1 or 2 or any combination of the two... as long as it is consecutive - and 10 hours. This would have "reset" BOTH clocks to zero. 8.) Since you FAILED to take the full 10 hours, THAT break is ALSO "on the clock" that started when you originally came on duty. Assuming you started at midnight.... you have 8 + 2 + 3.75 + 9.75 = 23.50 ON DUTY / on your 14 hour clock. You COULD have returned to work on line 4 if you wanted at that point... but The VERY MINUTE you attempted to drive again, you were in violation of the REGS against DRIVING past the 14 hour limit.... regardless of the number of hours you actually DROVE earlier. 9) Since you say that you THEN "worked" another 9 hours, I'm assuming that some of that was driving. "Technically" you didn't violate the 11 hour clock for driving until the combined driving time exceeded 11 hours for the day. But you violated the 14 hour clock the minute you started to drive, because you cannot DRIVE more than 11 hours within a 14 hour "window" [or PAST that window] without the proper breaks. Assuming you had "driven" for maybe 9 hours out of the original 11 1/4 hour "workday;" after the "insufficient" 9 3/4 hour break... you would ALSO have committed an 11 hour violation after the first 2 hours of driving. 10) One point of contention I have here with J.J. Keller and your safety department. Although, you obviously committed both an 11 hour AND a 14 hour violation, according to the fmcsa regulations, NEITHER would have ANY effect on a subsequent 34 hour reset! In fact, there was much debate as to whether one must be brought into compliance BEFORE starting a 34 hour restart or not... and the final ruling was that NO, one does NOT! BECAUSE a 34 hour "restart" satisfies the intention of the new regs, to ensure that a driver is well rested before driving, the FINAL ruling indicates that EVEN after a violation, including being put "out of service," a 34 hour restart washes the slate CLEAN! And, believe it or not, the 10 hours "out of service" can be considered part OF the 34 hour reset, as long as there is no "on duty" time to disturb the continuity of it. In short.... HAD you logged that 9 3/4 hours on LINE 2.... you would have been free and clear!! But, if your going to log it on line 1.... it HAS to be a full 10 hours! But.... you cannot be considered in violation of your 70 hour rule for the 8 days because of these violations. Time worked is still time worked, and off duty is off duty. YOU CANNOT "NEGATE" A 34 HOUR RESTART. Rev: There is one odd chance which would mean the company and driver is at fault, which is possible and I told Orange to find this out from his company as they would be the only one to answer his question in honesty. The driver would have had to be in violation prior to his 34 hour restart. Because in the regulations prior to 10-1-05, if you was in violations you had to wait until you was in compliance. The company would not have updated their computer, but this also means the company has not updated their licences which is doubtfull becasue they expire the day the money is due and it has been over 1 year as of 10-1-2006. Orange: I am really seeing they probably did not run a violation summary to update the logs entered being it was at the beginning of the month. I would call and ask if you still have the violation and if you don't it is because the auditor did not have a log in the system or she/he did not do an update to make sure you violations were accurate from the last logs entered. Some do not know you have to do this to get accurate and current violations. Get a current letter and see if it is on there, if so do the other things I told you and you will find your answer. Although you may have to figure it out yourself or go to someone different in logs. Rev: I know my stuff when it comes to keller ok! I know prove it right, well I can, so test me? Why do you try and knock everything down I say? Get over it and relax dude! :roll:
#126
03-04-2007, 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago
Originally Posted by Dawn
If it found the 11 & 14 hour rule I could only assume the company updated it.
Unless one thing if the driver was over his 70 hour prior to the 34 hour restart (which I have asked him) and the old rules you had to be in compliance. I doubt this to be the factor though. Actually this has to be updated since the regulation has been out for more than a year and when you renew your contract they make sure you are on the updated version, if regulations have changed. If it is an improvement upgrade it is your option to stick with the old for a while anyhow.
Where did the poster even say that his company was using one of these programs? It certainly is plausible that they have their own program they use.
#127
03-04-2007, 03:22 PM
Dawn said:
The issue of the computer saying the above poster had a 70 hour violation when he only had an 11 & 14 was because
1) there is a missing log in that 8 day period that probably is an off duty log that included the 34 hour restart, therefore the computer does not see a 34 hour break) 2) The auditor has keyed in something incorrectly. 3). The correct settings has not been selected by the IT department or log department. The keller has to be updated, if it wasn't the 11 & 14 would not have been identified. Or the driver made a mistake and the auditor assumed something which he/she should not have done. I have seen this all the time in my years of training. The Prosecution Rests! :lol:
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Remember... friends are few and far between. TRUCKIN' AIN'T FOR WUSSES!!! "I am willing to admit that I was wrong." The Rev.
#128
03-04-2007, 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by Dawn
The driver would have had to be in violation prior to his 34 hour restart. Because in the regulations prior to 10-1-05, if you was in violations you had to wait until you was in compliance.
Rev: I know my stuff when it comes to keller ok! I know prove it right, well I can, so test me? Why do you try and knock everything down I say?
Get over it and relax dude! :roll:
#129
03-04-2007, 03:42 PM
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago
Originally Posted by Dawn
The driver would have had to be in violation prior to his 34 hour restart. Because in the regulations prior to 10-1-05, if you was in violations you had to wait until you was in compliance.
Rev: I know my stuff when it comes to keller ok! I know prove it right, well I can, so test me? Why do you try and knock everything down I say?
Get over it and relax dude! :roll: |
