[golfhobo]

BigWheels said:

Deep within the very core of a liberal, progressive, and/or socialist beats the heart of a capitalist.

Not true, of course. Take Lenin or Marx, or any OTHER you'd like. Granted they wanted Power, but none of them got that power from investing in a "capitalist" business. The Bolsheviks took DOWN the "ruling class" that gained their wealth by controlling all business enterprises.

How many dirt-poor Democrats in Congress do you know?

I don't know ANY member of congress.... but, I bet there are MORE Democrats in the lower echelon of income than there are Republicans.

Most of them are millionaires. How did they make their millions? Not in a Socialist-run system.

Granted. However, since so many are lawyers, it is possible that many of the DEMS earned their money by SUEING the capitalists. Just sayin'.

Liberals, progressives, socialists, etc., love power. They crave it. For them it is Nirvana.

And this is different from Republicans/Conservatives just HOW?? Not to mention that it is just categorically untrue! I would be embarrassed to make such a sweeping generalization without basis in fact! But, I guess you heard it from Beck or Rush.... so, you BELIEVE it to be true.

In order to get power and hold on to power, you need money. Where do you get money? Either you work your azz off in a Capitalist system or you sell your vote to big business (capitalists.) But you need money in order to play and stay in the game.

There.... fixed it for you!

George Soros. Liberal. Progressive. Multi-gazillionaire. Capitalist. Just think: where would George be today if it wasn't for evil capitalism and the ability to make a butt-load of money? Maybe driving a truck for Swift (or your favorite gigantic carrier).

Or maybe living on the Riviera on money earned from "open markets" in Europe, Japan, etc. America is not the ONLY nation with a 'stock market.'

What has Soros done to pizz you off.... OTHER than to put money behind trying to get rid of BUSH??

[Windwalker]

Originally Posted by Dejanh

You speak like you know it....
No its not free, people pay for it and how can you then call it socialized medicine, that is the charge that you have been throwing out there, isn't it?

How do you know anything about socialism, have you ever lived anywhere where they practice it?
There are MANY lies in Capitalism as well, does that make them equal?

So its not socialism then....

It doesn't matter. No one ever files for bankruptcy because they get sick, PERIOD.

What freedoms do you have that people in Greece do not, or people in England or in Germany. The fact is that you dont really know what you are talking about as you have never been anywhere but the continental US and maybe Canada. If you go out of the box for just a little bit, you will see that many of these countries have better living standard that you in many ways EVEN TOUGH THEY HAVE UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE.

You are comparing socialism with Stalin ism. Stalin was a dictator who used his powers over people, thats not socialism. true form of socialism has never been implemented just as the true form of capitalism.

You had a really good example that Capitalism doesn't work as well just last year, when the whole country almost dipped in a depression of unseen proportions...where government had to step in and socialize many of these hard core capitalist companies.

You don't know your history very well, do you.

It isn't just about Stalin-izm or Marx-izm. The Obama administration has received messages from countries like China, telling them that "socialism" does not work. In all, I believe there were about 5 or 6 countries that sent about the same message. Which the Obama Administration has not really taken to heart.

Actually, the reason that socialism and capitalism do not work well is the "commission factor". Think about your own job. Driving a truck, dealing with food warehouses, and paying the lumpers. The driver pays the lumpers. He/she turns in the receipts to the company. The company adds on a 15% handling fee and turns it over to the broker. The broker adds on a 15% handling fee, and turns it over to the shipper/processor. That, in turn is added on to the cost of the goods being shipped. See where this is going?

Lumper fee - $200
Company to broker - $230
Broker to shipper - $$264.50
The shipper adds - $304.19 to the cost of the load to cover lumping..
Each entity covers their own accounting costs, and in the end, it's the consumer that pays it all.

In socialism and capitalism as well, each entity covers the accounting costs, and administration fees. By the time you get the benefit of your investment, you only get a fraction.

Look at the social security system. In a person's lifetime, they may pay in close to $400,000.00. The S. S. Administration says that the average retiree only collects for 18 months. Monthly check = equals $2,200. Now, $2,200 a month for 18 months = $39,608 total. That suggests $360,392 in administrative costs per person. Now, how many people are paying in to social security across the country? And, yet, the social security fund is going broke. You want to explain that one?

You pay into an insurance company for years without ever having a claim. What are your premiums per month? Then, look at the total cost of all your claims during your lifetime. Now, think about how much there would be in a bank account if you simply deposited that each month, and paid your doctor cash.

You see where this is going? It doesn't matter if the system is socialism or capitalism as it is set up now. If it were true capitalism, you would pay your bills with no administrative costs. It's the administrative costs that soak up the benefits, and interfere with the operation of capitalism. The fact is that in a socialist system, the administrative costs, ie "commission factor" is much higher than in a capitalist system. Look at the proportional difference between social security and the handling costs for unloading your load.

[robertt]

BOTH sides are so damn worried about "who's in charge", and yes I understand why, it's no wonder the "people" don't feel like they are being listened too, which they aren't. Their is more time spent "defending" seats and worrying about "poll" numbers than their is working on fixing our country. They aren't there to "defend" THEIR seat, or worry about getting re-elected, they are there to REPRESENT the "people", which I always thought was the majority,(sorry if I'm wrong), and "defend" OUR country and the Constitution of the United States of America. If whomever would do that, the rest would take care of itself. The HELL with HAVING to go out and "round up the troops". If you were doing things right, the "people" would be following you and "you" would have your support. And yes, I think it's THAT simple.

Republicans on Offense as Dems Slip
Associated Press

Democrats privately acknowledge the economy and support for Obama must improve before then to avoid the defeats that could cost them control of the House and possibly the Senate.

WASHINGTON -- Republicans are on offense in scores of House and Senate races as persistent economic woes and lukewarm support for President Barack Obama continue to weaken Democrats' hold on Congress.
The president and his party are determined to minimize the losses six months before the November elections. But Democrats privately acknowledge the economy and support for Obama must improve before then to avoid the defeats that could cost them control of the House and possibly the Senate.
Primaries in Indiana, Ohio and North Carolina on Tuesday kick off an intense eight weeks of contested elections. There also are two special House elections to fill vacant Democratic-held seats in Pennsylvania and Hawaii. The outcome could be a clear indicator of the political mood.
"I need your help once more," Obama says in a video message to backers, a plea that underscores the troubles for Democrats. "This year, the stakes are higher than ever," the president adds, warning that Republicans would "undo all that we have accomplished."
Although Obama isn't on the ballot, a Democratic shellacking would be seen as a rebuke of the president's first two years in office, much like 1994 was for President Bill Clinton when the GOP reclaimed the House and Senate.

Obama and his party must defend dozens of seats in the 80 or so House races that are competitive; they include some districts that Democrats have held for decades.
The party also faces serious Senate challenges in at least nine states, including Nevada, where Majority Leader Harry Reid trails in the polls. Democratic seats in Illinois and Delaware, once held by Obama and Vice President Joe Biden, respectively, are also in jeopardy.
While Republican prospects are looking up, infighting between moderates and angry conservatives might dash the party's hopes.
At this point, analysts for both parties say Republicans probably will pick up as many as three dozen House seats, and possibly the 40 needed for control. The GOP is expected to win a few Senate seats, though the 10 necessary to take control is considered a long shot.

[Roadhog]

I don't know about "our future."

But I still hope one day in my future,
I wake up in a pile of strippers.

[GMAN]

Originally Posted by robertt

BOTH sides are so damn worried about "who's in charge", and yes I understand why, it's no wonder the "people" don't feel like they are being listened too, which they aren't. Their is more time spent "defending" seats and worrying about "poll" numbers than their is working on fixing our country. They aren't there to "defend" THEIR seat, or worry about getting re-elected, they are there to REPRESENT the "people", which I always thought was the majority,(sorry if I'm wrong), and "defend" OUR country and the Constitution of the United States of America. If whomever would do that, the rest would take care of itself. The HELL with HAVING to go out and "round up the troops". If you were doing things right, the "people" would be following you and "you" would have your support. And yes, I think it's THAT simple.

A true leader doesn't worry about polls. He does the right thing and leads by example. Term limits would help to bring these people back to reality. :thumbsup:

[Windwalker]

Originally Posted by GMAN

A true leader doesn't worry about polls. He does the right thing and leads by example. Term limits would help to bring these people back to reality. :thumbsup:

To an extent, it might, but it would also tell them that they only have so much time, then they have to worry about what they are going to do with the rest of their lives. How well will they lead and represent us if they're half occupied with a nice "nest egg" after public office?
There are two schools of thought here. "Doesn't matter what I do now, I can't run again anyhow."

[ronjon619]

Originally Posted by Ptarmigan

Sergey Brin, co-founder of Google was born in Russia, and he's now a billionaire at 36, Pierre Omidyar, founder of Ebay, John Catsimatidis, grocery magnate, John Kluge, Igor Olenicoff, Haim Saban, Patrick Soon-Shiong.

I wonder if AZ would CARD any of these guys?

[GMAN]

Originally Posted by Windwalker

To an extent, it might, but it would also tell them that they only have so much time, then they have to worry about what they are going to do with the rest of their lives. How well will they lead and represent us if they're half occupied with a nice "nest egg" after public office?
There are two schools of thought here. "Doesn't matter what I do now, I can't run again anyhow."

I think that it would help if we got rid of the taxpayer funded retirement for elected representatives. There would be less incentive for them to stay in office. I would also favor lowering congressional pay and have them be paid by each state that they represent rather than the U.S. government. It would be much easier to keep an eye on them at the state level.

[BigWheels]

Hey golfhobo...hope you're doing well.

Originally Posted by golfhobo

Not true, of course. Take Lenin or Marx, or any OTHER you'd like. Granted they wanted Power, but none of them got that power from investing in a "capitalist" business. The Bolsheviks took DOWN the "ruling class" that gained their wealth by controlling all business enterprises.

The Bolsheviks weren't stupid. They couldn't simply invest in a "capitalist" public business venture -- that's against the Socialist "rulebook". Rather as you say, the Bolsheviks decided to take DOWN the ruling class. Since the Bolsheviks didn't believe that God exists, they believed in the alternative golden rule: he who has the gold makes the rules. So they just stole the money and the power from the ruling class -- morals and character be damned. I'm not saying the ruling class were perfect -- not by a long shot (ain't no heros of mine). Plus I wouldn't catagorize them as capitalists either. They didn't exactly adhere to the principles of freedom that we in America hold very near and dear to our heart. So the Bolsheviks believed that the means justify the ends. It's OK to lie, cheat, steal, and even murder to achieve the redistribution of wealth. Modern day liberals, progressives, and socialists in the West are a bit more sophisticated -- they don't murder -- but they still aspire to redistribute your wealth and my wealth in order to control society and diminish/destroy the freedoms we value.

Originally Posted by golfhobo

I don't know ANY member of congress.... but, I bet there are MORE Democrats in the lower echelon of income than there are Republicans.

Perhaps. But even those lower echelon of income Democrats make more than many of us in this country.

Originally Posted by golfhobo

Granted. However, since so many are lawyers, it is possible that many of the DEMS earned their money by SUEING the capitalists. Just sayin'.

Kinda sounds like what the Bolsheviks did. Yeah, CBS news reported a while back that in 2008, they were 237 millionaires serving in Congress. To put this in perspective, 1% of Americans are millionaires, while 44% of those serving in Congress are millionaires.

Originally Posted by golfhobo

And this is different from Republicans/Conservatives just HOW?? Not to mention that it is just categorically untrue! I would be embarrassed to make such a sweeping generalization without basis in fact! But, I guess you heard it from Beck or Rush.... so, you BELIEVE it to be true.

Never said that some Republicans/Conservatives/Independents etc., are in it for the power. Washington DC can change people. Categorically untrue huh? You must be a tad-bit naive! Forget, for a moment, the liberals in this country. Look at socialist, communist, and fascist regimes around the world both today and in the past. What do you see. Leaders addicted to power and people they lead suffering for it. As far as Beck or Rush goes, should I believe you just because you say it? No offense dude, but just because anybody says anything doesn't mean it's true. You know you gotta investigate and uncover the facts before arriving at conclusions. That and following the money!

Originally Posted by golfhobo

In order to get power and hold on to power, you need money. Where do you get money? Either you work your azz off in a Capitalist system or you sell your vote to big business (capitalists.) But you need money in order to play and stay in the game.

There.... fixed it for you!

Or sell your vote to big liberals such as Nancy Pelosi. Re-fixed it.

Originally Posted by golfhobo

Or maybe living on the Riviera on money earned from "open markets" in Europe, Japan, etc. America is not the ONLY nation with a 'stock market.'

Yep, making lots and lots of Euros and Yen, etc.

Originally Posted by golfhobo

What has Soros done to pizz you off.... OTHER than to put money behind trying to get rid of BUSH??

Pizz me off? I'm complimenting the man for being a successful capitalist who happens to be a practicing socialist. Are you still pizzed off at Bush? He's still in your head isn't he. Dude, you need to get some hope and change in you fast! :lol:

[Twilight Flyer]

I think what's absolutely clear here, Dejanh, is that you have zero idea what socialism is all about.

You should go sit down before you hurt yourself.

Actually, I know it because I pay attention. You should try it sometime…you might find it enlightening. But that would require you pulling your head out of bathtub boy’s butt.

Being a moderator has nothing to do with expressing my opinions, nor does it threaten yours. I have never banned a single person because of their beliefs, even if I think they are stark raving mad. You and Hobo are still here, in part because you usually play by the rules, as does most everyone else here. Just because you have a different opinion than I do, doesn’t mean you’re in danger of being banned. The only time people run the risk of being banned is when they go over the line, start massive flamefests, or post p0rnographic pictures. Then they gotta go. Just ask Timberwolf about that. If you ever start doing that, then expect the warnings to come first. Ask Hobo – he has more warnings than anyone alive on any board ever created. But he’s still here. And so are you. And as long as you play within the rules, whether any of the mods like you or not, is irrelevant. So get off the mod kick, will ya? :roll:

On contrary, I am very happy here and I said that many times, OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

Happiness isn’t the same as blind ignorance. Someday, when you get older and wiser, you’ll wake up and say “oh *****!”. Then you’ll know. Until then, you’re only another one of the Hitler-wannabe’s automated Ospamobots.

All the hate towards Obama and the government comes from those who are not happy or have no idea what happiness is and are looking for every possible reason to blame government for everything.

See, this is where you are completely clueless. You have no idea WHO I am, let alone how fulfilling my life is. I have a grand life; absolutely love it and enjoy living every day. I have a beautiful wife and a large family with children ranging from 8 to 19. I’ve been around a while – long enough to see this country change in ways that are truly alarming. And just because you and the Hobos of the world do not see it, doesn’t mean that it isn’t happening. What pisses me off is that all the joy I have been able to experience in this life, I see being stolen away from my children by a corrupt mob of criminals currently in power – and there are a number of Republicans involved in that as well. I want my children to grow up and have the chance to marry and raise families of their own, with the SAME freedoms I have enjoyed. And I find that the myriad of threats to those freedoms that they deserve while living in this country, makes me a tad bit angry at times.

You know, you and Hobo really should do a reality check. You guys seem to think that all any of us are doing is wringing our hands and crying “woe is me!” when you couldn’t be further from the truth. We’re the happy ones, yet we are also the concerned ones and rightfully so. I recall Hobo one time a while back making the comment that he was not happy and had not been happy for a very long time. I honestly think that’s sad and I find myself asking the question, why? But you talk to the majority of true conservatives and you will find that by and large, they are happy. Sure, they are highly concerned, but being aware and concerned doesn’t mean you cannot be happy.

As I said to Hobo in another thread, I’ve got a fairly broad base of friends and acquaintances all over the nation. I’ve got friends that are liberal, democrats, and/or atheists or agnostics – almost polar opposites to being the conservative Christian that I am. Yet what I find rather enlightening is that those whose beliefs are diametrically opposed to me are the ones that are the least happy. Why’s that? Their boy is in power, enacting all the socialist reform possible. What’s not to be happy about? And yet, they are not and most of them are intent on getting their party purged now that they see the truth. I have asked them many times good-naturedly and somewhat smugly, “how’s that hope and change workin’ out for you?” Most of the sheepish replies are along the lines of “yeah, yeah, shut up about it already.” It’s a scenario being repeated on a massive scale all across the country, regardless of what the liberal media is spoon-feeding those that are still addicted to them.

And that brings me back to the obvious. Do you have any idea how up-in-arms this whole country is over what the anti-American crew is doing? By your replies and defense of little Hitler, I would say you do not. But the way things are shaping up, if we maintain our right to vote freely, you’re going to see a huge shift in power in November and after that, 2012 will almost certainly be a death-knell for today’s democrats. Do you really want that? I’m a conservative, yet I’m aware enough of what it would mean to this country to go from such a liberal majority to a conservative majority. And I promise you that there are some religious extremist fanatic politicians that are absolutely salivating over that one. What happens when you get someone in power that decides that all the anti-religion stuff over the past 20 years is over and now you will worship at THIS specific church on THIS specific DAY and follow THESE specific commandments. As an atheist, how will you respond? As a Christian who believes wholly in freedom of religion, how do you think I would respond? We'd probably be standing shoulder-to-shoulder facing down government guns together on that one.

In short, the balance has not tipped, it is falling over. And the populace of this country is completely split and the chasm is widening – it started back about a year after the 9-11 attacks and has been escalating ever since. How would you react if your bathtub boy and most of his ilk were removed from power in November? Would you clap a conservative on the back and say “well, we tried. Good game there, my friend!” You’d be lying if you said you would. No, your reaction would predictably be something about stolen elections or conspiracies or some other thing to excuse the loss. When Bush won two elections fairly (despite Hobo’s frail grasp on his unproven and ridiculous conspiracy theory), that’s all we heard and from a few far-lefties, we’re still hearing it. And when your boy won, did the majority of conservatives say it was a fair election? Not at all. Most of the talk was on Acorn and campaign contributions and dems helping put a very weak McCain up as the republican nominee.

The point I am making is that no matter who wins anymore, there is going to be more said about unfairness and/or downright criminal conspiracies than on whether the best or right man won. The chasm will continue to widen and those that are going to end up in power are not going to be who we want – they are going to be the far extremes of either side. When do you think this country will reach the breaking point? When do you think that political unrest is going to explode into massive violence in the streets? Joe Stack was a certifiable nutjob, but what he did when he flew his plane into the IRS building is what people are feeling – on both sides. The hate is palpable these days and no longer just a murmuring.

In the end, you can think and believe what you want. The fact that you believe differently does not bother me. A healthy political environment will always have people whose beliefs are opposed to the beliefs of another. But we have moved beyond that over the past couple decades – now people are opposed to each other and the word “enemy” is thrown around all the time. And that will ultimately lead to one thing – enemy against enemy, brother against brother.

The fact that you cannot see that is what is truly puzzling.

And sad.
.
.
.

BigWheels to Hobo:

Are you still pizzed off at Bush? He's still in your head isn't he. Dude, you need to get some hope and change in you fast

OK, that was funny! LOL!!