[robertt]

Greece and now Spain, are the Dominoes starting to fall? Isn't it funny how SOCIALISM works? Wasn't it NEWSWEEK that had the cover with the Red and White hands shaking with the headline, "We're all Socialists Now: The perils and promise of the new Era of Big Government". Very comforting.

MADRID (AFP) – Spain's jobless rate topped 20 percent in the first quarter, national statistics institute INE said Friday, fueling fears over the country's public finances which have rattled global financial markets.

The number of unemployed jumped by 280,200 to 4.61 million, more than in Germany which has nearly twice Spain's population, for a jobless rate of 20.05 percent. The unemployment rate rose from 18.83 percent in the fourth quarter. The last time the unemployment rate topped 20 percent in Spain was in the fourth quarter of 1997 when it hit 20.11 percent. Spain's jobless rate has soared since the global credit crisis hastened the collapse of its labour-intensive construction industry at the end of 2008.

The country has the highest unemployment rate in the 16-nation eurozone and accounts for half the region's job losses over the last two years, according to the European Union's statistics office Eurostat. The rise in unemployment during the first quarter means Spains socialist government, which has vowed to protect social welfare spending, will face an even bigger bill for jobless benefits as it tries to rein in a public deficit that hit 11.2 percent of Gross Domestic Product last year.

Ratings agency Standard & Poor's cut the country's long-term sovereign credit rating on Wednesday to "AA" from "AA+" amid concerns about the country's growth prospects, sending the euro and global stock markets tumbling on fears Madrid faces similar problems to debt-stricken Greece.

"We now believe that the Spanish economy's shift away from credit-fueled economic growth is likely to result in a more protracted period of sluggish activity than we previously assumed," S&P's credit analyst Marko Mrsnik said.

The Spanish economy, Europe's fifth largest, contracted 0.1 percent in the fourth quarter from the previous three months, even as the entire eurozone, the United States and Japan emerged from recession. Spain has proved especially vulnerable to the global credit crunch because growth relied heavily on credit-fuelled domestic demand and a property boom boosted by easy access to loans that has collapsed. French investment bank Natixis estimates that prior to the crisis 30 percent of Spain's working population worked directly or indirectly for the construction industry.

Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said Wednesday that unemployment had likely peaked in the first quarter and would now begin dropping. In January Zapatero unveiled a 50 billion euro austerity plan intended to bring the public deficit to within a eurozone limit of 3.0 percent by 2013.

[Mr. Ford95]

Forget Spain, Portugal and worry about Greece. If this drags on in Greece the whole world is in deep trouble financially. Wonder how we will all work that out if we are all broke...............erase all debts owed to one another and start over from square one?

[Dejanh]

Originally Posted by robertt

Greece and now Spain, are the Dominoes starting to fall? Isn't it funny how SOCIALISM works? Wasn't it NEWSWEEK that had the cover with the Red and White hands shaking with the headline, "We're all Socialists Now: The perils and promise of the new Era of Big Government". Very comforting.

Its not Socialism that got us spending money we didn't have and buying things we could not afford, it was rotten Capitalism that made you believe that everything is fine as long as you are spending money and buying things.

Companies got rich of off peoples health, at least in Greece you can see a doctor for free, here you cant and we are still broke and owe more that 13 Trillion to the rest of the world.

You need to look in the mirror and put the blame where it belongs.

[GMAN]

You don't see a doctor for free in Greece or anywhere. That is the lie of socialism. Someone pays the bill. It is either the individual or the government. If it is the government then the people are still paying the bill through higher taxes. When the government pays we all pay a much higher cost not only in higher fees for the bureaucracy but in lost freedoms. The lie of socialism sounds good in principle. The problem is that it just doesn't work.

[robertt]

Originally Posted by Dejanh

Its not Socialism that got us spending money we didn't have and buying things we could not afford,

Is that why part of the article talks about the Gov't "vowing to protect social spending"? Just askin.

[Dejanh]

Originally Posted by GMAN

You don't see a doctor for free in Greece or anywhere.

You speak like you know it....
No its not free, people pay for it and how can you then call it socialized medicine, that is the charge that you have been throwing out there, isn't it?

Originally Posted by GMAN

That is the lie of socialism.

How do you know anything about socialism, have you ever lived anywhere where they practice it?
There are MANY lies in Capitalism as well, does that make them equal?

Originally Posted by GMAN

Someone pays the bill.

So its not socialism then....

Originally Posted by GMAN

It is either the individual or the government. If it is the government then the people are still paying the bill through higher taxes.

It doesn't matter. No one ever files for bankruptcy because they get sick, PERIOD.

Originally Posted by GMAN

When the government pays we all pay a much higher cost not only in higher fees for the bureaucracy but in lost freedoms.

What freedoms do you have that people in Greece do not, or people in England or in Germany. The fact is that you dont really know what you are talking about as you have never been anywhere but the continental US and maybe Canada. If you go out of the box for just a little bit, you will see that many of these countries have better living standard that you in many ways EVEN TOUGH THEY HAVE UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE.

Originally Posted by GMAN

The lie of socialism sounds good in principle. The problem is that it just doesn't work.

You are comparing socialism with Stalin ism. Stalin was a dictator who used his powers over people, thats not socialism. true form of socialism has never been implemented just as the true form of capitalism.

You had a really good example that Capitalism doesn't work as well just last year, when the whole country almost dipped in a depression of unseen proportions...where government had to step in and socialize many of these hard core capitalist companies.

[Dejanh]

Originally Posted by robertt

Is that why part of the article talks about the Gov't "vowing to protect social spending"? Just askin.

Social spending are things like SSI, Roads, and other things and these are the things that people pay for out of their paychecks. They are saying that they will support their health care system as they see how important it is to the entire well being of a nation.

What am talking about is the debt that Americans have accumulated for personal reasons, purchasing things they could not afford with the money they did not have. Thats not socialism, that's stupidity.

[Twilight Flyer]

I think what's absolutely clear here, Dejanh, is that you have zero idea what socialism is all about.

You should go sit down before you hurt yourself. :roll:

[robertt]

Originally Posted by Dejanh

What freedoms do you have that people in Greece do not, or people in England or in Germany. The fact is that you dont really know what you are talking about as you have never been anywhere but the continental US and maybe Canada. If you go out of the box for just a little bit, you will see that many of these countries have better living standard that you in many ways EVEN TOUGH THEY HAVE UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE.

Well, I HAVE been to NUMEROUS countries and some of them NUMEROUS times. I spent ALOT of time ALL over Europe, been to Australia a couple of times, Japan, Korea, Guam, all over South America, Grenada, Iceland, Saudi, France, Peuto Rico (yes I know it's a U.S. territory), Africa (numerous places), and on and on. Yes, they are "free", and some of them are beautiful places, and MOST ALL of them, not all but MOST, the people can't get enough "stories" about the USA. Do you have ANY idea how many women from OTHER countries want to marry an American so they can live HERE and LEAVE where they are living now? I do. Ever here of mail order brides? Have you ever seen an American girl who wants to marry somebody from another country so they can leave HERE? How many "kids" are being adopted to come HERE. You couldn't pay me enough to live ANYWHERE but here. Are their people who move over to another country and stay? Sure. One thing though, I bet you a hundredgazzilionbilliontrillion dollars that more people are coming HERE than are leaving to either go back to their "home" country or are leaving because it "really sucks" being here. And they are coming HERE because of what WE ARE and HAVE BEEN, not because they are thinking,"hey, I'm betting that the U.S. is going to suck really bad someday like the place I'm leaving, so I'll just I'll just move back to my country when that happens". I do have friends who have stayed in some of these countries because they married someone from that country, but, EVERYONE of them has moved back to the good ole USofA.

HELLS BELLS!!! Ptarmigan even moved over HERE from another country for "whatever" reason, education, work, women, whatever, but he's HERE. There is SOMETHING here he needed or wanted that he couldn't get in his HOME country. You don't just move that far away from "home", just "because". He wants to "change" everything, but he's HERE, in "THE UNITED STATES of AMERICA"!!!

Just sayin.

[Ptarmigan]

Well, let's first define what socialism is. Providing Universal Healthcare is no more socialism than providing a government fire department or the socialized libraries that we have in this country.

The UK system works, but it works for a number of reasons that simply do not exist here. The government is not acting as a single payer insurance company in the UK, it simply provides the services directly, whether it be an Emergency Room or a primary care physician or an ambulance.

It works because it was implemented 60 years ago, at a time when the nation's infrastructure was being rebuilt anyway, and so it was possible to build a system from scratch, whereas that cannot happen here.

The problem with the bill that has recently been passed is three fold.

Firstly, the passing of the bill, in other words the mechanism used to pass it is and was unconstitutional. The bill, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, originated in the US Senate. The House Bill was dropped in favor of this one. Article 1, Section 7, Clause 1 of the US Constitution requires that All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.

Secondly, the bill violates the interstate commerce clause of the Constitution. In United States vs. Lopez, the Supreme Court held that Congress does not have the power to legislate control over public schools. If they do not have the power to legislate over public schools, they certainly do not have the power to legislate control over hospitals, insurance companies, and private individuals in their healthcare decisions. Particularly as insurers are expressly forbidden from trading across state lines.

Thirdly, this Act really doesn't cover that many people. All it does it tell you that you must buy health insurance, that if you do not buy health insurance you must pay a financial penalty and that if you fail to pay the penalty, some stuff happens that you won't like. It specifically excludes Native Americans from the penalty.

This violates about six different parts of the constitution, the fifth amendment, in that it deprives a person of property without due process of law, the interstate commerce clause, as discussed above, the fourth amendment, in that the taking of money without due process of law constitutes a seizure, and the tenth amendment as the constitution provides that the states or people shall have the powers not enumerated to congress.

So, the bill will force insurers to cover things that they previously did not have to, which a functioning retard can see will raise rates on everyone's insurance. I think that's the plan to be honest, make insurance so expensive that people welcome a public option.