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  #71  
Old 09-20-2009, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by golfhobo
I thought she read it clearly and perfectly. She has a knack at doing that! Gman seems to have an acceptable level of intelligence, a higher level of education, and a lot of common sense. But, when it comes to Obama, democrats in general, and liberals.... he gets VERY narrowminded and even MORE imaginative!

He ALSO has a very selective memory, as he fails to give Dubya credit (where it is due) for not ONLY the problem.... but ALSO the initiation of the "fixes" that he now rails against!
And, you have a way of sticking your head in the sand when it's not convenient for you to see the whole picture.

Before the election, Obama stated (several times) that he had been a law professor. What he did not say was that he is thoroughly versed in the law so that he knows just how close to the edge he can get without actually stepping over the line. He's also one of the reasons we NEED to eliminate lawyers in the Oval Office. The common sense levels of most attorneys is almost the opposite of their IQ. Take a look at the "Health Care Package" they're pushing. From what I've heard as I've gone around the country, the people they're saying they are trying to cover are still not going to be able to afford health care. And, there are some 45,000 deaths a year because of lack of the ability to get healthcare. And, why can't the get it? I've been told that the "MEDICAL CREDIT RATING" is what denies it from them. Financially strapped, can't keep up with things, and because of the Medical Credit Rating, they're turned down from healthcare. But, they make too much to get into the other programs. And, there are a whole lot of people that fall into that group.

Obama gave us a SMOKE SCREEN during the campaign, is working for the benefit of the same people as Bush was. Only from a different direction, so most people won't recognize it. I've heard a whole lot of people saying "we've been had". I'll be very surprised if he sees a second term.
 
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  #72  
Old 09-20-2009, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by GMAN
. One thing I can tell you for certain is that history has a way of repeating itself. If you want to know what comes next, check out history just prior to WWII. Look at a fellow who came from obscurity to be Fuhrer of Germany with aspirations to rebuild the old Roman Empire and rule the world. His name was Adolf Hitler.
"Your hand is staining my window."
 
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  #73  
Old 09-20-2009, 12:56 AM
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Sigh. The ignorance being displayed in this thread makes me lose what little faith in humanity I had.


Next up - Obama is the Antichrist discussed in the Bible!


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  #74  
Old 09-20-2009, 02:43 AM
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ssoutlaw said:

Where can we find the words, "in god we trust" our governments money, ya think???
NOT until we as a nation were almost 100 years old! At the insistence of a few religious nuts.

U.S. Treasury - Fact Sheet on the History of"In God We Trust"

What about, " one nation under God" the pledge which is now no good in schools for some reason???
I've discussed this one many times before. Short answer? Not until about 1954.... at the insistence of some MORE religious kooks! Google the phrase YOURSELF (I'm too lazy this morning.)

My sons swearing in to the Navy, I forgot the words but God was mentioned??? Sorry!!!
Don't really feel like checking this one either this morning. Been too long ago, so I don't recall the exact words I swore to at MY enlistment. God is probably mentioned.... but, it doesn't mean what YOU say it means. Again... it was probably ADDED somewhere along the line. I don't know, but I have to WONDER whether it was part of the ORIGINAL oath at the foundation of our country's militaries.

This nation was founded as a christian NATION!!!! But now everyone wants to change what their ancestors made, go figure!!!
No, it wasn't. It was founded BY religious people FOR religious freedom OF AND FROM religious persecution and LAWS. They went OUT OF THEIR way to make sure that our government would make "NO LAWS establishing, respecting, in collusion with.... how ever you want to say it..... the CHURCH or any religion.

The only "CHANGING" that has been done over the years, has been the ADDITION of references to GOD to our mottos, oaths, etc...... at the insistence of the Moral Kooks.
 
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  #75  
Old 09-20-2009, 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by dobry4u
"Your hand is staining my window."
Okay.... ya LOST me with THAT one! :lol2:
 
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  #76  
Old 09-20-2009, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by GMAN
One thing I can tell you for certain is that history has a way of repeating itself. If you want to know what comes next, check out history just prior to WWII. Look at a fellow who came from obscurity to be Fuhrer of Germany with aspirations to rebuild the old Roman Empire and rule the world. His name was Adolf Hitler.
Godwins Law has been invoked, and it only took 7 pages.
 
  #77  
Old 09-20-2009, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by golfhobo
Okay.... ya LOST me with THAT one! :lol2:
It's a quote from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
 
  #78  
Old 09-20-2009, 04:05 AM
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Here is just ONE example of what the Supreme Court has said about the "wall of seperation." Pay particular attention to the history lesson conntained.


From Everson v. Board of Education of Ewing Tp., 330 U.S. 1 (1947):

. . . The First Amendment, as made applicable to the states by the Fourteenth, Murdock v. Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, 319 U.S. 105 , 63 S.Ct. 870, 872, 146 A.L.R. 81, commands that a state 'shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.' These words of the First Amendment reflected in the minds of early Americans a vivid mental picture of conditions and practices which they fervently wished to stamp out in order to preserve liberty for themselves and for their posterity. Doubtless their goal has not been entirely reached; but so far has the Nation moved toward it that the expression 'law respecting an establishment of religion,' probably does not so vividly remind present-day Americans of the evils, fears, and political problems that caused that expression to be written into our Bill of Rights. Whether this New Jersey law is one respecting the 'establishment of religion' requires an understanding of the meaning of that language, particularly with respect to the imposition of taxes. Once again, 4 therefore, it is not inappropriate briefly to review the background and environment of the period in which that constitutional language was fashioned and adopted.
A large proportion of the early settlers of this country came here from Europe to escape the bondage of laws which compelled them to support and attend government favored churches. The centuries immediately before and contemporaneous with the colonization of America had been filled with turmoil, civil strife, and persecutions, generated in large part by established sects determined to [330 U.S. 1, 9] maintain their absolute political and religious supremacy. With the power of government supporting them, at various times and places, Catholics had persecuted Protestants, Protestants had persecuted Catholics, Protestant sects had persecuted other Protestant sects, Catholics of one shade of belief had persecuted Catholics of another shade of belief, and all of these had from time to time persecuted Jews. In efforts to force loyalty to whatever religious group happened to be on top and in league with the government of a particular time and place, men and women had been fined, cast in jail, cruelly tortured, and killed. Among the offenses for which these punishments had been inflicted were such things as speaking disrespectfully of the views of ministers of government-established churches, nonattendance at those churches, expressions of non-belief in their doctrines, and failure to pay taxes and tithes to support them. 5

These practices of the old world were transplanted to and began to thrive in the soil of the new America. The very charters granted by the English Crown to the individuals and companies designated to make the laws which would control the destinies of the colonials authorized these individuals and companies to erect religious establishments which all, whether believers or non-believers, would be required to support and attend. 6 An exercise of [330 U.S. 1, 10] this authority was accompanied by a repetition of many of the old world practices and persecutions. Catholics found themselves hounded and proscribed because of their faith; Quakers who followed their conscience went to jail; Baptists were peculiarly obnoxious to certain dominant Protestant sects; men and women of varied faiths who happened to be in a minority in a particular locality were persecuted because they steadfastly persisted in worshipping God only as their own consciences dictated. 7 And all of these dissenters were compelled to pay tithes and taxes 8 to support government-sponsored churches whose ministers preached inflammatory sermons designed to strengthen and consolidate the established faith by generating a burning hatred against dissenters. [330 U.S. 1, 11] These practices became so commonplace as to shock the freedom-loving colonials into a feeling of abhorrence. 9The imposition of taxes to pay ministers' salaries and to build and maintain churches and church property aroused their indignation. 10 It was these feelings which found expression in the First Amendment. No one locality and no one group throughout the Colonies can rightly be given entire credit for having aroused the sentiment that culminated in adoption of the Bill of Rights' provisions embracing religious liberty. But Virginia, where the established church had achieved a dominant influence in political affairs and where many excesses attracted wide public attention, provided a great stimulus and able leadership for the movement. The people there, as elsewhere, reached the conviction that individual religious liberty could be achieved best under a government which was stripped of all power to tax, to support, or otherwise to assist any or all religions, or to interfere with the beliefs of any religious individual or group.

The movement toward this end reached its dramatic climax in Virginia in 1785-86 when the Virginia legislative body was about to renew Virginia's tax levy for the support of the established church. Thomas Jeffer- [330 U.S. 1, 12] son and James Madison led the fight against this tax. Madison wrote his great Memorial and Remonstrance against the law. 11 In it, he eloquently argued that a true religion did not need the support of law; that no person, either believer or non-believer, should be taxed to support a religious institution of any kind; that the best interest of a society required that the minds of men always be wholly free; and that cruel persecutions were the inevitable result of government-established religions.

Madison's Remonstrance received strong support throughout Virginia, 12 and the Assembly postponed consideration of the proposed tax measure until its next session. When the proposal came up for consideration at that session, it not only died in committee, but the Assembly enacted the famous 'Virginia Bill for Religious Liberty' originally written by Thomas Jefferson. 13 The preamble to that Bill stated among other things that

'Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments, or burthens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are [330 U.S. 1, 13] a departure from the plan of the Holy author of our religion who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either . . .; that to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves, is sinful and tyrannical; that even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion, is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor, whose morals he would make his pattern ...'
And the statute itself enacted

'That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened, in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief. . . .'14

This Court has previously recognized that the provisions of the First Amendment, in the drafting and adoption of which Madison and Jefferson played such leading roles, had the same objective and were intended to provide the same protection against governmental intrusion on religious liberty as the Virginia statute. Reynolds v. United States, supra, 98 U.S. at page 164; Watson v. Jones, 13 Wall. 679; Davis v. Beason, 133 U.S. 333, 342 , 10 S.Ct. 299, 300. Prior to the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment, the First Amendment did not apply as a restraint against the states. 15 Most of them did soon provide similar constitutional protections [330 U.S. 1, 14] for religious liberty. 16 But some states persisted for about half a century in imposing restraints upon the free exercise of religion and in discriminating against particular religious groups. 17 In recent years, so far as the provision against the establishment of a religion is concerned, the question has most frequently arisen in connection with proposed state aid to church schools and efforts to carry on religious teachings in the public schools in accordance with the tenets of a particular sect. 18 Some churches have either sought or accepted state financial support for
their schools. Here again the efforts to obtain state aid or acceptance of it have not been limited to any one particular faith. 19 The state courts, in the main, have remained faithful to the language of their own constitutional provisions designed to protect religious freedom and to separate religious and governments. Their decisions, however, show the difficulty in drawing the line between tax legislation which provides funds for the welfare of the general public and that which is designed to support institutions which teach religion. 20

The meaning and scope of the First Amendment, preventing establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, in the light of its history and the evils it [330 U.S. 1, 15] was designed forever to suppress, have been several times elaborated by the decisions of this Court prior to the application of the First Amendment to the states by the Fourteenth. 21 The broad meaning given the Amendment by these earlier cases has been accepted by this Court in its decisions concerning an individual's religious freedom rendered since the Fourteenth Amendment was interpreted to make the prohibitions of the First applicable to state action abridging religious freedom. 22 There is every reason to give the same application and broad interpretation to the 'establishment of religion' clause. The interrelation of these complementary clauses was well summarized in a statement of the Court of Appeals of South Carolina, 23 quoted with approval by this Court, in Watson v. Jones, 13 Wall. 679, 730: 'The structure of our government has, for the preservation of civil liberty, rescued the temporal institutions from religious interference. On the other hand, it has secured religious liberty from the invasions of the civil authority.'

The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertain- [330 U.S. 1, 16] ing or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever from they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between Church and State.' Reynolds v. United States, supra, 98 U.S. at page 164.



 
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  #79  
Old 09-20-2009, 04:38 AM
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The Rev said:

Sorry, GMAN, but you're wrong. Christianity was FOUNDED on racism, pitting the Jews against the Egyptians. The Old Testament is riddled with not only racism, but slavery, sexism, incest, etc. Christianity, as presented in the Bible, is one of the most violent religions imaginable.
While I don't disagree with MOST of what you have said on this thread.... and I thank you for posting that essay by your friend... this statement is kinda all mixed up and wrong.

Christianity was founded on Christ, which by definition makes it a New Testament religion. It wasn't around during the time the Jews were held captive in Egypt. THAT would have been Judaism.... and I don't believe even THAT religion was actually "founded on" racism, although you might have a point when you consider that they considered themselves to be God's CHOSEN people.
 
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  #80  
Old 09-20-2009, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by golfhobo
Christianity was founded on Christ, which by definition makes it a New Testament religion. It wasn't around during the time the Jews were held captive in Egypt. THAT would have been Judaism....
Last I checked, Christ was a Jew, and the entire Bible, from beginning to end, is the book that the Christians base their faith on.
 

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