[Skywalker]

Originally Posted by GMAN

According to some things that I have read, the 16th amendment, which provides for a federal income tax, was not legally ratified. Thus, it is not legally an amendment to the constitution. I have no idea if that is true or not. But then when has little things such as legalities been of concern to the government?

You may want to read here:

FindLaw: U.S. Constitution: Sixteenth Amendment: Annotations pg. 1 of 2

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/pdf/con027.pdf

There is a great deal of debate on the issue....but it seems that no-one has been able to beat the IRS....at least on the necessity of paying taxes...

[golfhobo]

Slimland said:

Let me clarify myself a little..

As will I.

I do not blame Obama, he is just the icing on the cake.
I blame all the damn liers that have been in office and that are in now.

Yet you SAID.... NOW.... that we have in office....

With the current political atmosphere and discussion in the media today, it is easy to see how I "assumed" you were making the distinction between Obama and the last 8 years of Bush.

Hobo our freedome's are being taken away, that is plain and simple. The government is too big and now it seems it own entity.
It affects everyone, Not just Christians, and what you call right wingest. But everyone.

I agree with this in principle, yet maintain that we have LESS to fear from Obama than from the policies that Bush pushed through.

No one has the right to tell me in this free country, what I can have or not.

Does that include an abortion? Or a gay marriage? How about a private phone call without being wiretapped?

If I want a gun of ANY kind that is my freedom and right as a human being. It is those who want power over someone else or some one who cannot abide by the simple civil laws that abide within us. that should be watched out for.

Not exactly. The 2nd Ammendment protects your right to own a gun. It does not say you can own a machine gun, a howitzer or other "arms." There has to be limits. "We" are tired of hearing that anyone who believes in solving the problems of gun related violence in this country are somehow POWER HUNGRY. The government is NOT AFRAID of the NRA membership, and a few guns. They are elected to "govern" and they are trying to "protect" civilization against lethal crimes.

But we see upstanding citizens rights being taken away, while those who heed to no law getting what they need to press there desire's and acts upon the now undefended citizens.

We "get it." We understand your frustration with criminals getting guns. We just don't share your hysteria about the government taking away YOUR guns while trying to control the availability TO CRIMINALS of the most lethal types of weapons.

Simply put we were free and now the big government is telling us, how we are going to live.
They come into our homes and take away the right to raise our children the way we the parents seem fit. No matter what their belief.

Again, I agree in principle. What is irritating me lately... and causing me to rant and at times hurt my friends like you.... is the way so MANY ignore the intrusions on our freedoms by the Bush administration and lay it all at the feet of Obama... and start throwing around words like "Socialist."

I do not want a civil war, I do not want Texas to leave the union.

Yet YOU posted a link to his speech and the resolution. You can't blame me for "assuming" you supported his position. I beleive you even said something about him "not going far enough."

I want the government to stay out of our busness, and do what it was created to do and that is it.
Each state should govern themselves, that is the way it is supposed to be. Just like a Mom and Dad are supposed to raise there children.

Someday, we will have a further discussion on what the actual role of the Federal government was "intended" or should be. But, let's face reality. There is NO WAY that the U.S. could function if each state was "an island unto itself." That's just a fact.... IMHO.

You sit there, just because of what I believe by Faith. and assume that I want to press my religion upon others.
You are wrong, and of all the talk's we have had I figured you would know that..
I do not care what someone believs, I just like talking and discussing them.

And I thought by now that YOU knew when I was just "raging against the machine" and using the "collective" YOU to voice my opposition to the crap that keeps coming from the twisted minds of the Limbaughs, Becks and Coulters of the Right Wing.

Our discussions were based around the subjects and our boundries were set. We stayed in those boundries, otherwise it would have been too confusing.

And I hope they still ARE. I apologize if I colored outside the lines. I don't have the comedy forum of Bill Maher with which to ridicule the Right Wing. I'm not even wired that way. I'm very passionate about MY beliefs, and I have been known to swing a Broadsword with the reckless abandon and "general" aim of my "role model," a Southern Baptist preacher. :eek2:

He is well known for stepping on more than a few toes, and I guess I have learned no better. Just as he does not judge the sinner, but hates the sin...I rail against the "content" that some of you cut and paste here, but don't MEAN to slay the messenger.

So you go ahead and support you dream of big government. Not me I am going to support Freedom.

I have no such dream. Nor do I have all the answers. But, I DO know that TOTAL freedom is anarchy.

[cdreid]

you lost my respect when you started talking about secession.

Dont like my country boy? GET THE HELL OUT! NOW you unamerican piece of garbage. You traitors make me sick at my stomach.

[Ridge Runner]

Originally Posted by cdreid

you lost my respect when you started talking about secession.

Dont like my country boy? GET THE HELL OUT! NOW you unamerican piece of garbage. You traitors make me sick at my stomach.

Wow! What a great post. It adds so much to the debate and exchange of ideas. :roll:

As of this writing, 37 states have either passed or in the works of passing resolutions reaffirming their rights under the 10 amendment to the constitution.

I think this is our ( the states ) little warning shot "across the bow" ( so to speak )..... that the federal government is starting to cross some lines that we will NOT stand for.

I for one think it will take the STATES UNITED to get the United States back in order.

[Ridge Runner]

Sorry CD to come off like I was jumping on you. You usually have great posts with a lot of thought and wisdom in them. I guess everyone has a "nerve" and this thread hit yours. Please add more, as I for one respect some of the things you write about.





Ridge

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by cdreid

you lost my respect when you started talking about secession.

Dont like my country boy? GET THE HELL OUT! NOW you unamerican piece of garbage. You traitors make me sick at my stomach.

This post really bothers me! I checked, and it's been a YEAR since you posted last. I no longer remember whether we agreed or not on most subjects, but I (like Ridge) DO remember finding your posts interesting.

But, I gotta tell you.... YOU don't "own" this country! No political group nor ideological mindset does. Even "secessionist" speech is protected here. There were many well respected men who led the Confederacy of Southern States in their ill-fated, but genuinely committed, attempt at self rule.

They were probably MORE "American" than you or I. Just what IS an "American" anyway? Are those BORN here more American than those who legally immigrated to this country and BUILT it? And aren't we ALL decendents of someone NOT born here (unless we are Native Americans?)

Before you go throwing around words like "traitor," perhaps you should look up the definition. In short.... it is one who would sell out his country to the enemy. Even the Confederates were in it to PRESERVE the country and birthright they believed in!

Although I don't agree with those who throw the word around lightly today, I respect them. Right or wrong, they feel "imposed upon" by the federal government. Our Declaration of Independence all but BEGS them to be vigilant against such an act.

Like me (and perhaps you) they are decendents of men who gave their lives to win our freedom from the tyranny of England. They don't want those sacrfices to be in vain.

Our country was founded on the principle of self rule. Many Americans of the time even objected to the constitution and its guarantees for all Americans. Their decendents were even LESS amused by the Bill of Rights for ALL inhabitants of our country. But that was the majority decision at the time, and still is.

There is, indeed, alot of "garbage" in our country today... but it is not the Texans, or the Southerners. Nor is it the Blue State intelligencia. It is the Lords and Barons who will sell us all for another dollar!

[GMAN]

Originally Posted by Skywalker

You may want to read here:

FindLaw: U.S. Constitution: Sixteenth Amendment: Annotations pg. 1 of 2

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/pdf/con027.pdf

There is a great deal of debate on the issue....but it seems that no-one has been able to beat the IRS....at least on the necessity of paying taxes...

I am sorry that I didn't see this earlier, Skywalker. Thanks for the reference. Whether the 16th amendment was legally ratified or not it has basically become a de facto law. Precedent has been set in the courts so it has essentially become the law of the land. If we are to have a government we need to have a means to support it. That is the reason we must have some taxes. I have never thought that I or anyone should not pay taxes. The problem I have is the amount and type of taxes that we pay. We definitely need to change the way we fund our government. Our government is bloated and out of control. We need a much smaller and responsive government. I don't mean that we need to over throw our government but we do need to make some changes back to the way this country was originally set up. It worked and without an income tax. Prior to the income tax our government was primarily supported by property tax and excise tax. The bigger the government becomes the more taxes will be needed to support it.

[cdreid]

I do have a hot head and a big mouth. But you know i took the oath. And these are the same type of guys who call people like me (democrats) unpatriotic???

These folks want to change the government? Get active. Get informed. Donate. Volunteer. I encourage that from ALL points on the spectrum. But talk about overthrowing the government? Abandoning the country pretty much everyone in my family fought for? You've crossed the line from pissed off citizen to traitor. And that just makes me insane.

[Slimland]

Originally Posted by cdreid

I do have a hot head and a big mouth. But you know i took the oath. And these are the same type of guys who call people like me (democrats) unpatriotic???

These folks want to change the government? Get active. Get informed. Donate. Volunteer. I encourage that from ALL points on the spectrum. But talk about overthrowing the government? Abandoning the country pretty much everyone in my family fought for? You've crossed the line from pissed off citizen to traitor. And that just makes me insane.

You know I have no Problem with anyone speaking there mind, Never have. But you call me a traitor! Did you not read the whole thread before you made that ASSumption ?

I do not wish to change the government, I wish to Keep it like it was supposed to be, Keep it on the foundations of Freedome written within the Laws that bound it in the beginning. Not some whoopla of what the left and right wing thinks it says or said.. When we as a nation step away from that "which in my opinion have" then that is the real traitorizm.. if that is a word..

So why don't you actualy open your mind at what someone says and look at what they are trying to get across before you get pissed off..

That is the problem with people now days, and I have even done the same.. So wrapped up in there own, not being able to have an open mind for a decent discussion without spewing some kinda crap on what they think another thinks.. Sounds more like a woman, who is caught up in her feelings telling a man what he is thinking. Even though he says " No honey this is what I was thinking" Still she says " No its not"

No open mind, then No discussion, that is one reason I have not visited this board in a while, besides the obvious and know what is going on in my personal life that I have shared on this board..

Even Hobo has gotten bitter, to the point of not being able to hold a conversation without that personal attack!

I expected much more from my friends on here, but hey I understand, cause I know beyound a shadow of a doubt that they also have been going threw there own hell. Judgment always starts in the house, it is the cleaning process of God, and even I myself cannot seem to submit to it..

So peace and injoy what we have left for the limited time we have it!

Slimland

[golfhobo]

Slim said:

Even Hobo has gotten bitter, to the point of not being able to hold a conversation without that personal attack!

I am not bitter. I don't see where I attacked you personally. As I explained, I rail against the propaganda that "some" of you propogate. You and I agree that many of our freedoms are being stolen. We just differ on who is the thief.

I do not disagree that government is getting too big. I just get tired of hearing it ALL blamed on Democrats. And especially when the "blame" is supported by the LIES of the Republicans and their mouthpiece FOXNews.

I have never denigrated your "faith." I just feel that it has NO PLACE in the "equal" application of law and government in this country. We are fighting the Taliban IN PART because of their religious fundamentalism and its oppressive application on the FREE people of Afghanistan.... yet, we "tolerate" similar intrusions on our OWN freedoms by those who believe our laws should be "guided" by the CHRISTIAN Bible. The VERY example of persecution that we fled England to avoid!

It is said that "those who don't LEARN from history are destined to repeat it." I can't help but feel that the ever-increasing influence of the Moral Majority, and the right wing in general, is reminiscent of the absolute control that the Church of England had over its "subjects."

YOU (or some here) fear that America is heading towards the SOCIALISM that has NEVER had a hold in this country, and NO PART of our history. I fear that we are REVERTING to the religious dogmatism and governance of the country we fought a revolution to escape.

If you have it handy.... please read the Preamble to the Constitution with a view to the intended COMPARISON to the country we fled:

We the PEOPLE.... (as opposed to the aristocracy)

A more perfect UNION....(as opposed to class differences)

Establish justice.... and promote the general welfare....(as opposed to the privilege and amnesty afforded the "Lords and Barons)

The blessings of LIBERTY to ourselves and our posterity....(the same root as LIBERAL.... but, in practice had much more to do with RELIGIOUS liberty.)

I don't believe our forefathers were declaring ANARCHY! They understood that we would need laws and government.... and yes, even taxes! In fact.... this is the preamble to the Constitution that ESTABLISHED a new form of GOVERNMENT and "provided" for taxation.

The "spirit" of our Revolution and our Constitution was to free ourselves from both religious control AND the discrimination of class warfare that was the daily LIFE in England at the time.

The constitution goes on to declare that NO STATE can proffer "Nobility" on any citizen. This is a FURTHER guard against the feudal system we had fled.

I'm not saying that SOME won't have, or MAKE, more money than others. I don't want a "communistic" society where we all dress in pants suits! I'm saying that we came here to give ALL Americans a shot at prosperity, but the Feudal system, and the aristocracy followed us.... and took over LONG ago!

I think we BOTH want freedom and liberty, Slim. We just seem to have a difference of opinion as to WHO the devil is!

P.S..... JESUS WAS A LIBERAL!