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09-14-2007, 02:36 AM
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PackRat said:
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Originally Posted by golfhobo
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Originally Posted by PackRatTDI[b
]If this law gets passed,[/b] then the US will suffer because if we can't be trusted to hold up an agreement that WE AGREED TO, then how can we be trusted with anything else?
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PackRat: I don't know which LAW you are referring to. A restriction on "funding" has nothing to do with any law! |
I guess you missed that part in civics class that stated when a "bill" gets signed, it becomes legally binding, and therefore LAW.
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Again I must ask..... what LAW got passed??
And I guess YOU missed the part of civics class that said that ANY "BILL" cannot be "passed" until "ratified" by 2/3rds of the [states, represented by] Congress! :roll:
Bush Sr. SIGNED NAFTA into Law during HIS administration. But, it wasn't "ratified" by Congress (and therefore did NOT become law) until during Clinton's Administration.... which is why YOU, and your friends, blame CLINTON for its "passage!" You can't have it both ways! :lol:
You, apparently, have NO idea that signing a BILL into law, by a President, has NOTHING to do with it's ratification process!
And I STILL don't know what "LAW" you are referring to!
What "LAW" is about to get "passed?" One that somehow gets us OUT of the treaty??
Oh, and BTW..... Thanks to Dubya.... the U.S. is no longer trusted in ANY political circles in the World! Again..... google Kyoto Treaty! :wink:
Keyword: RATIFIED. NO "LAW" becomes legally binding until RATIFIED!
Go back to school!! :roll: :wink:
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TRUCKIN' AIN'T FOR WUSSES!!!
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09-14-2007, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by golfhobo
PackRat said:
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Originally Posted by golfhobo
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Originally Posted by PackRatTDI[b
]If this law gets passed,[/b] then the US will suffer because if we can't be trusted to hold up an agreement that WE AGREED TO, then how can we be trusted with anything else?
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PackRat: I don't know which LAW you are referring to. A restriction on "funding" has nothing to do with any law! |
I guess you missed that part in civics class that stated when a "bill" gets signed, it becomes legally binding, and therefore LAW.
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Again I must ask..... what LAW got passed??
And I guess YOU missed the part of civics class that said that ANY "BILL" cannot be "passed" until "ratified" by 2/3rds of the [states, represented by] Congress! :roll:
Bush Sr. SIGNED NAFTA into Law during HIS administration. But, it wasn't "ratified" by Congress (and therefore did NOT become law) until during Clinton's Administration.... which is why YOU, and your friends, blame CLINTON for its "passage!" You can't have it both ways! :lol:
You, apparently, have NO idea that signing a BILL into law, by a President, has NOTHING to do with it's ratification process!
And I STILL don't know what "LAW" you are referring to!
What "LAW" is about to get "passed?" One that somehow gets us OUT of the treaty??
Oh, and BTW..... Thanks to Dubya.... the U.S. is no longer trusted in ANY political circles in the World! Again..... google Kyoto Treaty! :wink:
Keyword: RATIFIED. NO "LAW" becomes legally binding until RATIFIED!
Go back to school!! :roll: :wink:
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I'm not talking about NAFTA, I'm talking about this recent Senate bill.
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09-14-2007, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by golfhobo
Redsfan wrote:
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It never ceases to amaze me how folks will make statements referencing illegal immigrants in regards to the Pilot Program issue and then try to refute that once it's pointed out to them that these are two entirely different issues.
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I've read the entire thread several times, and NO ONE is confusing this issue but YOU. Every trucker on this board KNOWS that the Pilot program concerns Mexican (citizen) drivers coming into America from Mexico. The "Illegal aliens" already IN this country are a different story, and related ONLY in the way that they ARE driving down wages for those American Workers who WOULD work in those affected industries, while paying NO taxes, and burdening our healthcare system. However, keep in mind that, SHOULD a Mexican citizen driver abandon his truck in America, for a perceived "better life" making closer to American wages in ANY industry that might hire him.... he WOULD then become an "ILLEGAL allien/immigrant!"
Really? Honestly, I don't have the kind of time it would require to read this entire post several times, nor do I feel the need to do this. As I RECALL from reading the posts ONE time, posters have referenced illegal immigrants several times in an effort to validate what they are saying about the Pilot Program. Maybe if you go back and read it again (several times if you feel the need) you will see what I am talking about?
You claim that the illegals ARE driving down wages taking jobs that Americans WOULD be willing to take. Give me something to back this up. Sorry if I don't feel compelled to just "take you at your word", but the facts that I have seen (and referenced in my post) don't reflect this statement of yours. As for the statement that if a Mexican SHOULD abandon their truck, they would become an illegal immigrant, I would agree with that. However, I've yet to see any evidence that suggests that this will be happening.
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Folks, they are not going to flip a switch and make it legal for all US companies to employ illegal immigrants for 15 cpm just because we allowed the conditions set forth in NAFTA to be put into action.
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NO one, but you, is saying this. We are saying that American companies (shippers,) will "contract" with Mexican companies under the pilot program AND any future "free trade" provisions, to haul freight at a cheap rate (SINCE they pay their drivers the EQUIVALENT of 10-20 cpm) at a HUGE savings to that shipper! This will result in American freight companies having to EITHER drop their rates (and resultant PAY to their drivers) to compete..... OR lay off American drivers due to loss of freight VOLUME.
This could be a possibility I suppose, I don't have the same crystal ball that you obviously do. If I did I could also state my opinion as fact such as you have here. Of course, if I did I highly doubt this discussion would even be taking place because I would have won the lottery by now and be laying on a beach somewhere. That beach, of course, would allow me to "bury my head in the sand" anytime I wished...
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It is not going to happen. Keep up the conspiracy theories. Keep crying in your beer that you're going to lose your job. Keep screaming at the top of your lungs that Bush and his corporate friends are selling out the American people to dissolve the US into a North American Union. Keep doing all these things and you'll keep getting what you've got so far, which is to be largely ignored (and higher BP to boot).
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And YOU can keep breathing the SAND in which you've buried your HEAD!
Happy to say my lungs are sand-free. We don't have a lot of sand in Ohio to bury our heads in. However, our friends in NC seem to have an endless supply of it and that's becoming painfully obvious.
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I keep hearing 11 cpm, 15 cpm, etc... thrown around in these discussions, but those folks need to check their facts. The bottom line is that once they get here, they do not work for less money than Americans do whether they are illegal or not.
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Now YOU are confusing the facts! No one is talking about illegal immigrants who, "once they get here" are making closer to American wages! We are talking about Mexican citizens (legal ONLY in their own country,) who don't "GET HERE" but rather are domiciled in Mexico, but will NOW be allowed to haul freight into and out of America. They get to go HOME to Mexico (weekly, I suppose)... will probably make more money than the AVERAGE Mexican driver,..... and will REPLACE an American driver who used to haul that freight to the Mexican border! This will result in HUGE savings to American companies in freight costs, AND will cost American truckers their jobs!
Once again, should all of this happen, it will then become fact. Until then it is merely opinion and should be taken as such.
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Check with anyone who has ever been involved with illegal immigrants such as the construction or farming industries. They pay them the same as they would a US worker, but the difference is they actually show up for work (for a while anyway). Usually after a while they become "Americanized" and catch on to the system. They shack up with some fat chick who couldn't land any other suitors, they proceed to have 6 kids and kick back to live off welfare.
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Do I detect a note of cynicism in your voice? :lol: I don't actually KNOW what the "illegal immigrant" workers are making. But, I agree with your scenario of "Americanization." But, I DO know that most of them send MOST of their money HOME to Mexico! That HURTS our economy! I also know that, UNLESS they have a valid Soc Sec number, those companies are NOT paying any Employee taxes on them! (which adds to their "windfall" profits.) I ALSO know that, in MY area of the country anyway, those "Illegals" are responsible for a HIGHER rate of crime and fatal vehicular deaths!
Most of the raids have targeted illegal immigrants who are working "legally" as far as the company is concerned as a result of identity theft. In most cases that I've read about the company itself did pay employee taxes on them, paid for the same benefits and wages that would be offered to an "American" worker. Therefore, the "windfall" to add to their profits that you referred to wouldn't exist in most cases. If all of these companies were engaging in the illegal acts that you suggest the folks that run those companies would be sitting in jail right now and the fact is that most of them aren't. Technically, by law, most of these companies have done nothing wrong so they aren't prosecuted. As I stated with Koch Foods, the company claims that they suspected that they had "illegals" working there and they contacted the authorities. There was nothing else that they could do to investigate the legality of the workers. By law, if they had, they would be breaking the law and subjecting themselves to prosecution. Do I agree with anyone benefitting from identity theft, of course not. There is obviously a problem in this area and it needs to be dealt with, but I will agree with you, this has NOTHING to do with the Pilot Program.
As for the crime issue, I am "ignorant" to this as I don't live in an area with much crime at all. I see several "Hispanic-looking" folks here almost on a daily basis, but I haven't noticed a spike in crime and fatal accidents either from personal observation or by reading the local newspaper. If I had I might be more willing to look into it further. Until then, I just remain "ignorant" as to whether such an epidemic exists or not.
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Immigrants, whether illegal or not, do not come here to earn the same wages they could earn in their home country. They come here for the opportunity to earn higher wages and a better way of life. Why would one risk their life sneaking into a country just to earn the same wage with a higher cost of living?
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A valid point, but AGAIN.... we're not talking about ILLEGAL immigrants! We are talking about a legal citizen of Mexico, who NOW has a right to DRIVE a truck DEEP into the Heartland (away from the prying eyes of Border Patrol agents,) and then MIGHT abandon that truck to go from making the Mexican equivalent of $5/HR to join his "illegal" brothers (which he would now be ONE of,) to make $10/HR! This way, he is NOT risking his LIFE crossing the border through a river! He is driving across with the "blessings" of Dubya! Cost of Living?? Is it really higher?? They live 10 or more to an apartment, pay NO taxes, and get FREE healthcare!! They buy Chinese clothing at Walmart for HALF the price of American made, and they don't pay much more for a taco in America than they do in Mexico!
Once again, pure speculation. There is no hard evidence to suggest that this WOULD happen. He has more than just the blessings of "Dubya", he has the blessings of anyone who was ever a proponent of NAFTA. Up until the point that the current Appropriations Bill is presented to "Dubya" he is simply doing his job of putting into action the provisions set forth in NAFTA. Will he veto it, I have no idea.
As for living 10 or more to an apartment, I really couldn't blame them. I've had several friends who travelled across the country working construction jobs. They would be there for several months so they would all pool together and rent a place to live to save on costs. This just makes good financial sense on their part. I also can't fault them for shopping at Wal-Mart either since I do this myself for the same reason, to save money. Again, I am "ignorant" as to the price of a taco in Mexico and I honestly don't care to educate myself on this. Frankly, I couldn't tell you what they cost here because I don't care for them myself. I haven't seen a Taco Bell menu in many years to know what they cost. However, my guess is that they live on more than just tacos and for anyone to assume that they do is nothing more than another form of bigotry.
[Actually, we are NOT talking so much about them becoming "Illegals" as we are about them taking our jobs .... and SAFETY issues!]
Once again, give me some evidence that SAFETY will be an issue. Is it going to be an issue just because Jimmy Hoffa and Todd Spencer say it will be? From what I've read, they will meet the same safety standards that you or I have to meet, so this is not a valid arguing point at all. So far I have read about at least 2 Mexican trucks running into the US and there were no safety issues reported. With that knowledge you, the Teamsters and OOIDA are 0 for 2 in that argument, but I doubt that I will continue to keep stats.
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Folks who buy into this garbage are just simply ignorant. They get all of their education from talk show hosts on their XM radio while they cruise back and forth across our country.
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As a "NEWER" poster on this board, I'm sure even YOU realize that American Truckers don't like to be called "ignorant!" Especially by someone who is confusing the facts, misinterpreting our posts, not really AWARE of the situation we speak of, and generally making assumptions about our level of intelligence and where we get our information and viewpoints!
Yup, I'm a "NEWER" poster on the board, as you are since you have me by a whole 3 months...
I do realize that most people, including truckers, don't like to be called "ignorant", but that's really not my problem. Sorry if I "offended" anyone but I tend to call a spade a spade. I'm not saying that folks who call in and post in opposition to the President and this program are "stupid" people at all. I'm sure several are inteligent people, but IMO, most are "ignorant" to the facts involved in this debate. I'm guilty of making assumptions as to where they get their information, but I hear the same garbage being spread there as I do here and the viewpoints don't reflect the FACTS that I know to exist. So, I apologize for that part, but I don't feel the need to apologize for thinking that folks who spout what they hear as facts rather than investigating and educating themselves are "ignorant" to that issue.
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Drivers can keep listening to guys like Steve Sommers who clearly benefit from the fact that you get all worked up over things like this or you can take it for what it is. We can beat the issue to death, but the Pilot Program is here, it's going to happen.
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I admit that I am "ignorant" to who this Sommers guy is! I DON'T get my info from HIM! But, as of the last info I've read on this EXCELLENT site, from one of my "informed" fellow drivers..... the program is NOT YET "HERE!" Whether or not it "happens" is still up in the air, is being opposed by the majority of Americans, and NOW a similar majority of Representatives in Congress, and despite the last ditch "stand" by the lameduck (and totally Clueless Pres Bush,) will probably be "overridden" into obscurity!
Actually, you are wrong again here. The program is "HERE", it has been enacted. The Senate recently voted to stop funding for the program in FY08, but that has not stopped the program as of yet and may not even then. Again, how do you know that the program is opposed by the "majority" of Americans? Did they hold a vote and forget to invite me and everyone else I know???
As for "lameduck" that should actually be "lame duck" and by definintion of the word(s) this would apply to apply to a person who is holding an office after his replacement has been elected. This generally means that they are riding out their term doing nothing. Since neither of these definitions seem to apply to our "current" President this labeling on your part is rather "lame". As for being "clueless", my guess is that he is much more informed on this issue and many others than you or I. Therefore, that label doesn't hold much merit either.
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What's wrong with calmly keeping an eye on things to see how it turns out? My guess is that if it's as bad as you say it will be, it will be taken to task.
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The SAME thing that was WRONG with getting "INTO the WAR in Iraq, without an EXIT strategy, just to "SEE HOW IT TURNED OUT!" :roll:
I fail to see any resemblance between the war in Iraq and the Pilot Program. I don't remember anyone saying, "Hey let's head over here, fire a few bullets and see how things turn out.". Personally, I think it's turning out much in the way that we expected it. We were told that it would be a tough battle that would take years and that's what we got. I certainly didn't expect that our opponents would roll over and hand us a victory, but obviously a lot of the President's opponents seem to have believed this way. On that I'll extend you the same :roll:
For the record.... Redsfan..... you seem like an intelligent guy. Your posts are not very inflammatory, and you are well spoken. But, that is NO SUBSTITUTE for knowing the facts, COMPREHENDING the posts before you attack them, nor "blindly" following the Political ambitions of the President with the WORST public confidence rating in American History!
Thank you for noticing! You're correct I am an intelligent guy. Excuse me if I don't extend the same observation to you.
I haven't substituted anything as I do know a lot of the facts (certainly not all) and I comprehend them. I haven't attacked anyone anymore than folks have attacked me with labels like "apathy" and "contentment". I don't "blindly" follow anything, especially my President. You seem to know a lot about me from a few posts, so now who is making assumptions?
As for the confidence rating, I generally don't pay much attention to that stuff either. I know people who dont care for President Bush and I know people who feel the same way I do about him. I can't say that I've ever had a pollster contact me on the issue and I don't know of anyone that they've contacted so I take it for what it is. IMO, for one to assume that there is a low public opinion rating just because CNN polls 500 people would mean that they are "blindly" taking that as gospel. If I totally believed in polls, I (and a lot of folks like me) wouldn't have voted in the past 2 presidential elections and we would have Gore or Kerry right now as the polls suggested at the time that we would. However, once the election was actually held we had a slightly different result, didn't we? Thank goodness I didn't listen to them.
I EXPECT a response... but please give it MORE consideration than you have to date. I am NOT yet done with my rebuttals! :lol:
HOBO
Well, I guess I filled your expectaions then? For the record, I do tend to give my belief and opinions much consideration. I'll even give more consideration where warranted. You may NOT be done with your rebuttals, but I may. I may respond and I may not. I honestly don't have all day to beat a dead horse especially when folks state beliefs and try to pass them as facts. There's usually no point in trying to dispel one's "opinions".
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09-15-2007, 04:20 AM
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Like The Rev, I am not inclined to break this up into smaller quotes, so MY responses are in BLUE. :lol:
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Originally Posted by redsfan
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Originally Posted by golfhobo
Redsfan wrote:
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It never ceases to amaze me how folks will make statements referencing illegal immigrants in regards to the Pilot Program issue and then try to refute that once it's pointed out to them that these are two entirely different issues.
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I've read the entire thread several times, and NO ONE is confusing this issue but YOU. Every trucker on this board KNOWS that the Pilot program concerns Mexican (citizen) drivers coming into America from Mexico. The "Illegal aliens" already IN this country are a different story, and related ONLY in the way that they ARE driving down wages for those American Workers who WOULD work in those affected industries, while paying NO taxes, and burdening our healthcare system. However, keep in mind that, SHOULD a Mexican citizen driver abandon his truck in America, for a perceived "better life" making closer to American wages in ANY industry that might hire him.... he WOULD then become an "ILLEGAL allien/immigrant!"
Really? Honestly, I don't have the kind of time it would require to read this entire post several times, nor do I feel the need to do this. As I RECALL from reading the posts ONE time, posters have referenced illegal immigrants several times in an effort to validate what they are saying about the Pilot Program. Maybe if you go back and read it again (several times if you feel the need) you will see what I am talking about?
Okay, I DID read it all again, and you RECALL incorrectly, as I stated earlier. With the exception of ONE small post by someone a bit confused, who I won't name, no one ELSE has confused these two issues except YOU! I OFTEN reread threads several times before posting, so that I DON'T make such errors! It still happens at times, I'm not perfect.
You claim that the illegals ARE driving down wages taking jobs that Americans WOULD be willing to take. Give me something to back this up. Sorry if I don't feel compelled to just "take you at your word", but the facts that I have seen (and referenced in my post) don't reflect this statement of yours. As for the statement that if a Mexican SHOULD abandon their truck, they would become an illegal immigrant, I would agree with that. However, I've yet to see any evidence that suggests that this will be happening.
Well, let's see.... I'll take the word of GordoUSA and Greg - who live closer to the border than either of US - as some form of "evidence." I also consider as "evidence" the fact that in the 90's, trucking wages dipped below construction wages in America, and therefore a "shortage" of drivers was felt by the industry. Today, we are making a comeback, and more people are leaving the construction industry to join the Trucking Industry. Since, trucking wages have NOT gone up recently in any appreciable fashion, this would mean that Construction wages, not to mention job availability to Americans, have gone DOWN. I HAVE a link to this study by a very reputable think tank. I will get it for you.
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Folks, they are not going to flip a switch and make it legal for all US companies to employ illegal immigrants for 15 cpm just because we allowed the conditions set forth in NAFTA to be put into action.
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NO one, but you, is saying this. We are saying that American companies (shippers,) will "contract" with Mexican companies under the pilot program AND any future "free trade" provisions, to haul freight at a cheap rate (SINCE they pay their drivers the EQUIVALENT of 10-20 cpm) at a HUGE savings to that shipper! This will result in American freight companies having to EITHER drop their rates (and resultant PAY to their drivers) to compete..... OR lay off American drivers due to loss of freight VOLUME.
This could be a possibility I suppose, I don't have the same crystal ball that you obviously do. If I did I could also state my opinion as fact such as you have here. Of course, if I did I highly doubt this discussion would even be taking place because I would have won the lottery by now and be laying on a beach somewhere. That beach, of course, would allow me to "bury my head in the sand" anytime I wished...
It's not a crystal ball. It's called "trend analysis" and I am both highly trained AND experienced at it. You can learn. Just spend some time investigating the trends that have occurred following the deregulation of the Trucking and Airline industries.
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It is not going to happen. Keep up the conspiracy theories. Keep crying in your beer that you're going to lose your job. Keep screaming at the top of your lungs that Bush and his corporate friends are selling out the American people to dissolve the US into a North American Union. Keep doing all these things and you'll keep getting what you've got so far, which is to be largely ignored (and higher BP to boot).
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And YOU can keep breathing the SAND in which you've buried your HEAD!
Happy to say my lungs are sand-free. We don't have a lot of sand in Ohio to bury our heads in. However, our friends in NC seem to have an endless supply of it and that's becoming painfully obvious.
Ha Ha, that's almost funny! :roll: What I said was in response to YOUR saying that WE should just keep crying in our beer, etc. And, truth be known (to all but YOU,) the sand on the Carolina beaches is disappearing faster than your credibility!
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I keep hearing 11 cpm, 15 cpm, etc... thrown around in these discussions, but those folks need to check their facts. The bottom line is that once they get here, they do not work for less money than Americans do whether they are illegal or not.
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Now YOU are confusing the facts! No one is talking about illegal immigrants who, "once they get here" are making closer to American wages! We are talking about Mexican citizens (legal ONLY in their own country,) who don't "GET HERE" but rather are domiciled in Mexico, but will NOW be allowed to haul freight into and out of America. They get to go HOME to Mexico (weekly, I suppose)... will probably make more money than the AVERAGE Mexican driver,..... and will REPLACE an American driver who used to haul that freight to the Mexican border! This will result in HUGE savings to American companies in freight costs, AND will cost American truckers their jobs!
Once again, should all of this happen, it will then become fact. Until then it is merely opinion and should be taken as such.
I prefer the word "conjecture." It may be opinion of sorts, but based on historical trends. The problem with waiting to see if something becomes a FACT, is that once so, it is too late to avoid it's reality.
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Check with anyone who has ever been involved with illegal immigrants such as the construction or farming industries. They pay them the same as they would a US worker, but the difference is they actually show up for work (for a while anyway). Usually after a while they become "Americanized" and catch on to the system. They shack up with some fat chick who couldn't land any other suitors, they proceed to have 6 kids and kick back to live off welfare.
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Do I detect a note of cynicism in your voice? :lol: I don't actually KNOW what the "illegal immigrant" workers are making. But, I agree with your scenario of "Americanization." But, I DO know that most of them send MOST of their money HOME to Mexico! That HURTS our economy! I also know that, UNLESS they have a valid Soc Sec number, those companies are NOT paying any Employee taxes on them! (which adds to their "windfall" profits.) I ALSO know that, in MY area of the country anyway, those "Illegals" are responsible for a HIGHER rate of crime and fatal vehicular deaths!
Most of the raids have targeted illegal immigrants who are working "legally" as far as the company is concerned as a result of identity theft. In most cases that I've read about the company itself did pay employee taxes on them, paid for the same benefits and wages that would be offered to an "American" worker. Therefore, the "windfall" to add to their profits that you referred to wouldn't exist in most cases. If all of these companies were engaging in the illegal acts that you suggest the folks that run those companies would be sitting in jail right now and the fact is that most of them aren't. Technically, by law, most of these companies have done nothing wrong so they aren't prosecuted. As I stated with Koch Foods, the company claims that they suspected that they had "illegals" working there and they contacted the authorities. There was nothing else that they could do to investigate the legality of the workers. By law, if they had, they would be breaking the law and subjecting themselves to prosecution. Do I agree with anyone benefitting from identity theft, of course not. There is obviously a problem in this area and it needs to be dealt with, but I will agree with you, this has NOTHING to do with the Pilot Program.
Such cases are limited. Identity theft is a small percentage of the illegal workforce issue. Most illegals are doing good if they can "buy" a green card! Getting a Soc Sec number is much harder, and more rare. Most of these companies have structured their hiring policies and pay procedures to where a soc sec number is not necessary. These companies KNOW they are hiring "illegals!" The fact that they are not being prosecuted right and left, is a function of our "See no Evil" administration! Do you ever get OUT of Ohio?? I drive through the veggie fields of California et al every week. If 20% of those workers have proper documentation, I'll buy that steak dinner you offered!
As for the crime issue, I am "ignorant" to this as I don't live in an area with much crime at all. I see several "Hispanic-looking" folks here almost on a daily basis, but I haven't noticed a spike in crime and fatal accidents either from personal observation or by reading the local newspaper. If I had I might be more willing to look into it further. Until then, I just remain "ignorant" as to whether such an epidemic exists or not.
I agree! (about your ignorance on this issue.) But, I live in the South. Here, the news is absolutely chock FULL of stories of fatal accidents by drunk drivers, usually illegals. It IS an epidemic here. Hey, even Illegals don't want to live in Ohio!! :wink:
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Immigrants, whether illegal or not, do not come here to earn the same wages they could earn in their home country. They come here for the opportunity to earn higher wages and a better way of life. Why would one risk their life sneaking into a country just to earn the same wage with a higher cost of living?
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A valid point, but AGAIN.... we're not talking about ILLEGAL immigrants! We are talking about a legal citizen of Mexico, who NOW has a right to DRIVE a truck DEEP into the Heartland (away from the prying eyes of Border Patrol agents,) and then MIGHT abandon that truck to go from making the Mexican equivalent of $5/HR to join his "illegal" brothers (which he would now be ONE of,) to make $10/HR! This way, he is NOT risking his LIFE crossing the border through a river! He is driving across with the "blessings" of Dubya! Cost of Living?? Is it really higher?? They live 10 or more to an apartment, pay NO taxes, and get FREE healthcare!! They buy Chinese clothing at Walmart for HALF the price of American made, and they don't pay much more for a taco in America than they do in Mexico!
Once again, pure speculation. There is no hard evidence to suggest that this WOULD happen. He has more than just the blessings of "Dubya", he has the blessings of anyone who was ever a proponent of NAFTA. Up until the point that the current Appropriations Bill is presented to "Dubya" he is simply doing his job of putting into action the provisions set forth in NAFTA. Will he veto it, I have no idea.
I'm sure there IS "hard evidence" to support my "conjecture" and I will find it for you. As for Bush.... I wish I could believe he is just fullfilling a treaty obligation, but it is much MORE than that! It would be EASY for him to just let this die, or at least "simmer" for many more years. Unfortunately, I believe that, at a time when HE has bigger problems to solve, and no REAL legacy to leave behind, he is DEAD SET on getting this rammed down our throats! Like someone said about buying something from someone out of breath.... he has expended WAY more energy on this than it deserves! There is something foul here, and I KNOW it!
As for living 10 or more to an apartment, I really couldn't blame them. I've had several friends who travelled across the country working construction jobs. They would be there for several months so they would all pool together and rent a place to live to save on costs. This just makes good financial sense on their part.
Did they live 10 people (with children in diapers) in a two room apartment?? I doubt it! And, yes..... I've SEEN it many times!
I also can't fault them for shopping at Wal-Mart either since I do this myself for the same reason, to save money. Again, I am "ignorant" as to the price of a taco in Mexico and I honestly don't care to educate myself on this. Frankly, I couldn't tell you what they cost here because I don't care for them myself. I haven't seen a Taco Bell menu in many years to know what they cost. However, my guess is that they live on more than just tacos and for anyone to assume that they do is nothing more than another form of bigotry.
I used that purely as a "single" example of the cost of living. I am NOT a bigot! I was married to a Mexican American, and have NO problem with such people. My point was that, without having to pay many of the taxes we pay, and sharing living expenses as they do, they do NOT feel a major increase in the cost of their living. As a matter of fact, because of the poor conditions and wages in Mexico, MOST Mexicans have learned to live on a much "cheaper" diet than most Americans. So, there wages go further, but mostly they go "home" to their Mexican families.... NOT into our economy.
[Actually, we are NOT talking so much about them becoming "Illegals" as we are about them taking our jobs .... and SAFETY issues!]
Once again, give me some evidence that SAFETY will be an issue. Is it going to be an issue just because Jimmy Hoffa and Todd Spencer say it will be? From what I've read, they will meet the same safety standards that you or I have to meet, so this is not a valid arguing point at all. So far I have read about at least 2 Mexican trucks running into the US and there were no safety issues reported. With that knowledge you, the Teamsters and OOIDA are 0 for 2 in that argument, but I doubt that I will continue to keep stats.
I don't have time to find the quotes I have read on many official sites, and post them here. But, believe me or not, there are MANY in this country who admit that it will be impossible to keep up with the required inspections of these vehicles, and verify that the program is meeting the safety goals as required. But, again, I only mentioned "safety" in passing. I'm more concerned with JOBS! And, as someone stated here, TWO trucks does NOT make a very convincing "statistical sampling!" You should be ashamed for even mentioning it as such. I'm not 0 for 2 on NOTHING!
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Folks who buy into this garbage are just simply ignorant. They get all of their education from talk show hosts on their XM radio while they cruise back and forth across our country.
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As a "NEWER" poster on this board, I'm sure even YOU realize that American Truckers don't like to be called "ignorant!" Especially by someone who is confusing the facts, misinterpreting our posts, not really AWARE of the situation we speak of, and generally making assumptions about our level of intelligence and where we get our information and viewpoints!
Yup, I'm a "NEWER" poster on the board, as you are since you have me by a whole 3 months...
Okay, you got me on that one. I was in the posting box and couldn't see your profile. But, still your "participation" here, as evidenced by your 1 to 5 ratio to my number of posts, MIGHT suggest that you haven't read as many posts from others here who don't like being called "ignorant."
I do realize that most people, including truckers, don't like to be called "ignorant", but that's really not my problem. Sorry if I "offended" anyone but I tend to call a spade a spade. I'm not saying that folks who call in and post in opposition to the President and this program are "stupid" people at all. I'm sure several are inteligent people, but IMO, most are "ignorant" to the facts involved in this debate. I'm guilty of making assumptions as to where they get their information, but I hear the same garbage being spread there as I do here and the viewpoints don't reflect the FACTS that I know to exist. So, I apologize for that part, but I don't feel the need to apologize for thinking that folks who spout what they hear as facts rather than investigating and educating themselves are "ignorant" to that issue.
And MY point was that YOU were the one who was confusing the facts, MISREADING the posts, and attacking the general posting public here based on some "perceived" notion that we were confusing the issues of Illegal aliens and Mexican drivers. I don't know, nor CARE, what you have heard on some call in talk show! I am concerned with what my fellow posters on this board have said, and YOUR mischaracterization of them!
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Drivers can keep listening to guys like Steve Sommers who clearly benefit from the fact that you get all worked up over things like this or you can take it for what it is. We can beat the issue to death, but the Pilot Program is here, it's going to happen.
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I admit that I am "ignorant" to who this Sommers guy is! I DON'T get my info from HIM! But, as of the last info I've read on this EXCELLENT site, from one of my "informed" fellow drivers..... the program is NOT YET "HERE!" Whether or not it "happens" is still up in the air, is being opposed by the majority of Americans, and NOW a similar majority of Representatives in Congress, and despite the last ditch "stand" by the lameduck (and totally Clueless Pres Bush,) will probably be "overridden" into obscurity!
Actually, you are wrong again here. The program is "HERE", it has been enacted. The Senate recently voted to stop funding for the program in FY08, but that has not stopped the program as of yet and may not even then. Again, how do you know that the program is opposed by the "majority" of Americans? Did they hold a vote and forget to invite me and everyone else I know???
There is ample evidence, through more "independant" polls besides CNN, that the American public is against this program. And it is MORE than clear that the truckers are! IS the program really "here?" I read recently that out of the 100 companies originally involved, 49 had withdrawn their applications, another 30 or so were refused due to lack of documentation, and some others were not even in business anymore! I think there is something like 9 companies left! So, maybe this IS a "nonissue!"
As for "lameduck" that should actually be "lame duck" and by definintion of the word(s) this would apply to apply to a person who is holding an office after his replacement has been elected. This generally means that they are riding out their term doing nothing. Since neither of these definitions seem to apply to our "current" President this labeling on your part is rather "lame". As for being "clueless", my guess is that he is much more informed on this issue and many others than you or I. Therefore, that label doesn't hold much merit either.
Considering that he CANNOT be elected for another term, and the fact that the last Congressional elections turned the tide of the Congress to Democrats, I believe by all acceptable and practical definitions, he is considered a Lame Duck! And contrary to YOUR belief that lame ducks ride out their term doing nothing.... history has shown that MOST in this position have a tendency to "hyperactivate" and try to push through bills that they might not otherwise get through, (as long as they have support for them.) You really should start paying more attention to your government!
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What's wrong with calmly keeping an eye on things to see how it turns out? My guess is that if it's as bad as you say it will be, it will be taken to task.
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The SAME thing that was WRONG with getting "INTO the WAR in Iraq, without an EXIT strategy, just to "SEE HOW IT TURNED OUT!" :roll:
I fail to see any resemblance between the war in Iraq and the Pilot Program. I don't remember anyone saying, "Hey let's head over here, fire a few bullets and see how things turn out.". Personally, I think it's turning out much in the way that we expected it. We were told that it would be a tough battle that would take years and that's what we got. I certainly didn't expect that our opponents would roll over and hand us a victory, but obviously a lot of the President's opponents seem to have believed this way. On that I'll extend you the same :roll:
Then, you admit that you don't remember, or don't realize, that we sent less than HALF the troops into Iraq, to defeat their entire military and depose their leader, than we sent into Kuwait to push a few Brigades out of there? That we had NO plan to secure arms caches, OR the so-called all important WMD"s?? That Dubya declared Mission Accomplished without having done anything NEAR that? That he was so naive as to believe there would be no "delayed resistance?" That he had no exit strategy other than full occupation and building the biggest Embassy in the World there?
Check what I highlighted in your last statement. AGAIN you are confusing apples with oranges! We were NOT told that about the Iraq war!! We were told that about the OVERALL War on Terrorism!! See.... I REMEMBER this stuff.... word for word! I know the difference, and I hold my government to what they say! And the FACTS indicate that we, indeed, rolled in there thinking we could shoot a few bullets and the people would welcome us with open arms! What do you think was meant by the catch phrase "Shock and Awe??"
For the record.... Redsfan..... you seem like an intelligent guy. Your posts are not very inflammatory, and you are well spoken. But, that is NO SUBSTITUTE for knowing the facts, COMPREHENDING the posts before you attack them, nor "blindly" following the Political ambitions of the President with the WORST public confidence rating in American History!
Thank you for noticing! You're correct I am an intelligent guy. Excuse me if I don't extend the same observation to you.
Yes, I'll "excuse" you, because you don't KNOW any better! This was a very POOR example of diplomacy! Yet, I will NOT retract my observation of you. But, there is a big difference between intelligence and Knowledge!
I haven't substituted anything as I do know a lot of the facts (certainly not all) and I comprehend them. I haven't attacked anyone anymore than folks have attacked me with labels like "apathy" and "contentment". I don't "blindly" follow anything, especially my President. You seem to know a lot about me from a few posts, so now who is making assumptions?
See, here's an example. I said that intelligence is no "substitute" for knowledge of the facts, this "substitution" is a passive thing, not something you could do or NOT do. And I didn't say you didn't comprehend the facts (although I might could have,) but rather that you failed to COMPREHEND the posts, and therefore thought that WE were confusing the issues of illegal immigrants with the Mexican drivers, and as a result, wrongly accused the bulk of the posters on this subject of doing the very thing that YOU have done! You not only failed to comprehend THEIR posts, but now you have continued to misunderstand MINE! YOU, Sir, are batting 0 - 2!
As for the confidence rating, I generally don't pay much attention to that stuff either. I know people who dont care for President Bush and I know people who feel the same way I do about him. I can't say that I've ever had a pollster contact me on the issue and I don't know of anyone that they've contacted so I take it for what it is. IMO, for one to assume that there is a low public opinion rating just because CNN polls 500 people would mean that they are "blindly" taking that as gospel. If I totally believed in polls, I (and a lot of folks like me) wouldn't have voted in the past 2 presidential elections and we would have Gore or Kerry right now as the polls suggested at the time that we would. However, once the election was actually held we had a slightly different result, didn't we? Thank goodness I didn't listen to them.
I don't even know what to SAY about your lack of knowledge about Polling! But, interestingly.... Bush doesn't listen to them either! :roll:
For the record, I wasn't a big fan of Gore or Kerry, either. But, I am "on the record" in several forums as predicting EXACTLY what Bush would do, and how it would turn out! Perhaps, if MORE Americans had my "crystal ball" we wouldn't be in the quagmire we are in today!
I EXPECT a response... but please give it MORE consideration than you have to date. I am NOT yet done with my rebuttals! :lol:
HOBO
Well, I guess I filled your expectaions then? For the record, I do tend to give my belief and opinions much consideration. I'll even give more consideration where warranted. You may NOT be done with your rebuttals, but I may. I may respond and I may not. I honestly don't have all day to beat a dead horse especially when folks state beliefs and try to pass them as facts. There's usually no point in trying to dispel one's "opinions".
Not really! I had higher hopes for you. You can respond or NOT... I don't care. You're right, tho, about dispelling one's opinions. Actually, I believe that an intelligent person can change his opinions. BELIEFS are much harder to change! But, again, I applaud your intelligence. Now, work on your Comprehension skills and we'll be cool.
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Remember... friends are few and far between.
TRUCKIN' AIN'T FOR WUSSES!!!
"I am willing to admit that I was wrong." The Rev.
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