[golfhobo]

Fozzy said:

*Sniff*... I need a tissue after that sob story...

Here's a hankie. that'll be 20 PESOS!!

I'm not impressed by your theatrics. Neither am I surprised at your lack of a credible argument.

Sheepdancer said:

My only responce to your little rant would be: WHY ISNT THE DRIVER A SHAREHOLDER?

I AM surprised (and disappointed) that this was your ONLY response to a well thought out discussion of what could happen to drivers AND company employees like yourself under the NAFTA agreement.

If what you said about NOT having Mexican subsidiaries that operate TRUCKS is true, when the Mexican trucking companies that follow the pilot program FLOOD the country with cheap labor, again I ask.... HOW many contracts will JB Hunt lose? As a result, how many drivers will be "layed off?" And with more drivers than freight, WHY would they need to keep you on as a recruiter? So.... you LOSE that big salary you are currently making, but hey.... no problem... you can live off your stocks! :roll:

Maybe it's just ME.... but I would think that YOU profit MOST from an abundance of freight and a shortage of drivers. If that pendulum swings.... YOU are not needed! An "invasion" of the U.S. trucking marketplace by Mexican companies with much lower overhead, will lead to lower freight costs, a surplus of companies willing to haul it cheaply, more drivers than you can shake a stick at, and NO NEED for recruiters!

Your company will HAVE to (once again) lower their pay rate in CPM, and lose drivers. Those drivers will no longer be able to pay into a stock purchase plan. (So, your pathetic response is anemic on the face of it.)

And when, AND IF, the U.S. freight hauling market is opened up to these cutthroat Mexican companies, what do you think will disappear first?

General Freight (which makes up what? HALF of your company?) and Dedicated accounts (which makes up the other half!) Small companies like MINE, who have a "niche" market MAY survive.

As I said recently, Sheepdancer, I respect you and enjoy the informative nature of your posts. I have even learned a few things (or at least had cause to consider them) from some of your posts. I did not ACCUSE you of being part of the exploitation of Amercian workers, though I insinuated that your responses lately smacked of it. That was meant to feel you out and see where your loyalties lay.

Your responses have disappointed me.

No problem. I have never been one to erect pedestals or worship idols. You're no LESS a human, nor MORE a GOD, than I am! But, I expected a little MORE from you. That's all.

You're "excused" now. I'm sure you have a stack of paperwork to shuffle.

HOBO

[continental]

Originally Posted by PackRatTDI

Many countries in Europe require you to pay the officer on the spot for speeding fines. Italy is renowed for that. Are they corrupt as well?

Actually, yes. Except the Carabineri.

[redsfan]

It never ceases to amaze me how folks will make statements referencing illegal immigrants in regards to the Pilot Program issue and then try to refute that once it's pointed out to them that these are two entirely different issues.

Folks, they are not going to flip a switch and make it legal for all US companies to employ illegal immigrants for 15 cpm just because we allowed the conditions set forth in NAFTA to be put into action. It is not going to happen. Keep up the conspiracy theories. Keep crying in your beer that you're going to lose your job. Keep screaming at the top of your lungs that Bush and his corporate friends are selling out the American people to dissolve the US into a North American Union. Keep doing all these things and you'll keep getting what you've got so far, which is to be largely ignored (and higher BP to boot).

I keep hearing 11 cpm, 15 cpm, etc... thrown around in these discussions, but those folks need to check their facts. The bottom line is that once they get here, they do not work for less money than Americans do whether they are illegal or not. Check with anyone who has ever been involved with illegal immigrants such as the construction or farming industries. They pay them the same as they would a US worker, but the difference is they actually show up for work (for a while anyway). Usually after a while they become "Americanized" and catch on to the system. They shack up with some fat chick who couldn't land any other suitors, they proceed to have 6 kids and kick back to live off welfare.

Immigrants, whether illegal or not, do not come here to earn the same wages they could earn in their home country. They come here for the opportunity to earn higher wages and a better way of life. Why would one risk their life sneaking into a country just to earn the same wage with a higher cost of living? Folks who buy into this garbage are just simply ignorant. They get all of their education from talk show hosts on their XM radio while they cruise back and forth across our country.

Drivers can keep listening to guys like Steve Sommers who clearly benefit from the fact that you get all worked up over things like this or you can take it for what it is. We can beat the issue to death, but the Pilot Program is here, it's going to happen. What's wrong with calmly keeping an eye on things to see how it turns out? My guess is that if it's as bad as you say it will be, it will be taken to task.

[greg3564]

Originally Posted by redsfan

Immigrants, whether illegal or not, do not come here to earn the same wages they could earn in their home country. They come here for the opportunity to earn higher wages and a better way of life. Why would one risk their life sneaking into a country just to earn the same wage with a higher cost of living? Folks who buy into this garbage are just simply ignorant. They get all of their education from talk show hosts on their XM radio while they cruise back and forth across our country.

Hahahahahahaha!!!! I'm sure the illegal immigrants in Ohio are a real problem and you an expert in the region. However, I suggest you do a little research.

Immigrants typically make minimum wage or less in construction jobs, have no benefits and often are not even covered under workers compensation insurance because they are illegal. I worked in EMS in Las Vegas and transported numerous illegals who had been hurt while working construction. Through interpreters, and those who speak some english, I learned first hand how little these guys actually make. But, it's light years ahead of what they would make in their native country. If you think these guys are making good money in construction, or any labor job, you've got a rude awakening coming your way.

My brother-in-law who's a foreman for plumbing construction has said repeatedly that illegals suppress wages for legal workers and make almost impossible to make a living. Here's a bit of info from an article from the Arizona Republic Newspaper-

Nowhere has the demand for construction labor increased faster than in Arizona. Yet, most construction jobs in Arizona now pay below the state's median hourly wage, which was not the case in 1990.

A stagnant or declining price of something is not an indication of a shortage of it.

Contrary to the contention of immigration liberals, in almost all cases illegal immigrants do compete with native-born workers.

In construction, it's clear that illegal immigration is displacing legal workers and depressing wages. Construction used to be one of the bridges to the middle class for native workers who didn't go on to college. Illegal immigration has washed away the bridge.

[gordoUSA]

not all make minimum. I have a friend in the construction business here, hard work, manual labor. They make $17.00, $15.00 and $14.00 per hour, CASH! No deductions.
My friend offered to get his 2 oldest workers their "green cards" to work here legally, he would pay the attorneys, expenses etc., they flately refused! They want no part of paying taxes, medicare or social security. If they get sick or injured (stabbed or shot) they simply go to the emergency room, it's free.
Two recently abruptly quit him and went to work doing dry wall, less work, but still no taxes, all CASH to them. No problemo finding work.

[redsfan]

Originally Posted by greg3564

Hahahahahahaha!!!! I'm sure the illegal immigrants in Ohio are a real problem and you an expert in the region. However, I suggest you do a little research.

Immigrants typically make minimum wage or less in construction jobs, have no benefits and often are not even covered under workers compensation insurance because they are illegal. I worked in EMS in Las Vegas and transported numerous illegals who had been hurt while working construction. Through interpreters, and those who speak some english, I learned first hand how little these guys actually make. But, it's light years ahead of what they would make in their native country. If you think these guys are making good money in construction, or any labor job, you've got a rude awakening coming your way.

My brother-in-law who's a foreman for plumbing construction has said repeatedly that illegals suppress wages for legal workers and make almost impossible to make a living. Here's a bit of info from an article from the Arizona Republic Newspaper-

It's funny you mention it, but some do actually believe it is a problem here in Ohio. I certainly don't consider myself an expert on the issue, but I believe that I am better educated on the subject than a lot of folks who banter on and on throughout forums and over the airwaves. Certainly, I would think that just because someone lives closer to the border, that doesn't necessarily make them any more of an authority on the subject either. Especially when folks so often confuse two entirely different issues like illegal immigration and the pilot program with one another in their attempts to make their case for the other. While being closer to the border doesn't make one any more of an authority, history does show us that it tends to make bigotry much more of an issue and that has fueled the fire as much as any other factor. So much to the extent that it has made many people ignore things such as facts.

We had an issue here recently where Koch Foods, just outside Cincinnati, was raided and 161 people were arrested. The management at Koch had suspected that they were employing illegals and had questioned authorities on what they could do. By law if an employer is given two forms of identification and they hire that employee it is illegal for them to question their status any further. These folks made no less than the other "American" employees and they were extended the same benefits as you or I would be. Despite the pleadings from Koch, the Butler Co. Sheriff and ICE decided to sensationalize the arrests and even called the media in advance to alert them so they could be there with cameras rolling when the illegals were brought out. Early investigation results show that Koch Foods did absolutely nothing wrong and even asked for help with the issue, but they come out of this with a huge black eye. The sheriff stated that the people arrested were from 8 different countries, in other words, they weren't all Mexican. Yet, when you turn on the radio morons spout that we gotta keep these illegal Mexicans out, they're stealing our jobs... No, they're not! My guess is that if they are paying the same wage, any employer would rather hire someone that they feel is legal over someone that they feel is not. We had an issue here locally a couple of years back where Airborne Express was raided and a few hundred were hauled away. It was the exact same scenario, they were hired at $9.50 per hour and received full benefits.

I have seen countless Hispanics in tobacco patches and on produce farms in this area and even have hired a few myself in the past. I have no idea whether they were illegal or not, but what I do know is that when I did employ them it cost me 10 bucks per hour the same as it would if I hired you, but then again you weren't there asking me for the job that I needed to fill right away and they were. I have a friend who employs several Hispanics in the construction industry and he pays them $15 per hour the same as he would anyone else. In the past he was unable to accept bids because he couldn't find enough employees that were willing to work for such a "meager" income. Once again, who knows if any of these are illegal or not? Frankly, he is not allowed to investigate whether he wants to or not.

I will stress that I am totally opposed to illegal immigration. I don't care who comes here, but they should come here legally. I am all for a wall going up along the border, but I certainly don't think this will solve all of our problems.

We live in a time of great economic growth and jobs are more plentiful that ever before. Spare me the crap that they're stealing our jobs and driving down our wages. The facts don't support this. Even in your great state of Texas, with all of those illegals stealing your jobs, unemployment was at 4.4% as of July 2007 according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. According to the US Census, the median income continues to rise. Even knowing these facts, I'm fairly sure if I picked up a Sunday paper in Austin, Dallas or Houston I would find 15-20 pages of job ads. Add all of this together and it just doesn't back up your case at all no matter if you live in Texas, Ohio or Oregon.

With ALL of this being said, none of it has anything to do with the Pilot Project. They are two entirely different issues. The problem is that many folks and organizations as well are unable to seperate the two issues. The Teamsters, OOIDA and Steve Sommers offer nothing to back up the statements they make. Their answer is always, we believe it will prove detrimental... Unless they have a crystal ball, I really fail to see how they can be so sure of this. They rely on fear-mongering and preying on the ignorant to further their cause. They love situations like this because it tends to increase membership and listeners which in turn will make more money for them. The bottom line is that the jury is still out on NAFTA. None of us know what results it will bring, but we are committed to seeing it through and time will tell. So, why do people insist upon getting so worked up over it? If that's they way you want to live out your days, go right ahead. I'll be over here making good money and living fairly stress-free...

[greg3564]

Once again, ole Georgie Bush is threatening to veto because he isn't getting his way. Let's see, close to 60% of Americans are opposed to this in independent polls and lawmakers voted 75-23 to kill it. But Bush just doesn't get it and is determined to shove this down our throats. I can't believe I voted for this jackass twice!

Wednesday, Sept. 12, 2007 – Funding for the Bush administration’s cross-border trucking program with Mexico took a big hit, thanks to a 75-23 vote in the Senate late Tuesday that approved an amendment cutting funding to the program.

Next, the House and Senate will get together on the funding bill. However, then it will go to the president, who says he will veto.

U.S. Sen. Byron Dorgan, D-ND, offered the amendment Monday, Sept. 10, to the Senate’s version of the FY 2008 Transportation, Housing and Urban Development Appropriations bill. The amendment calls for a stop to the Bush administration’s pilot program that now allows Mexican trucks to haul freight throughout the United States. The amendment was co-sponsored by Sen. Arlen Specter, R-PA.

“I offer on behalf of myself and Sen. Specter an amendment – bipartisan, with a good many cosponsors – that says, ‘let’s stop this pilot program,’ ” Dorgan said.

When Dorgan’s amendment came up for debate late Tuesday, it was countered by another amendment offered by Sen. John Cornyn, R-TX. His amendment sought to allow the program to go forward with trucks being inspected only once every three months.

“My colleague will offer an amendment that sounds as if it is wrapped in a bouquet of flowers. The very last sentence says: Let’s fund this project,” Dorgan said about the Cornyn amendment. “So we can skip the preamble and say: Do you want to fund this project or not? Do you believe we ought to have long-haul trucks from Mexico under these circumstances at this time or don’t you?

“If you believe we are not ready, that there is not and will not be, at this point, equivalent standards and enforcement and, therefore, assured safety for the American people, if you believe that – and I think the evidence is clear – then you vote for the amendment I have offered with Sen. Specter and others.”

In illustrating how the current cross-border program misses the mark on safety, Dorgan outlined the Department of Transportation Office of Inspector General’s most recent report on the program and the deficiencies on the program. He called special attention to how the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration responded to the report when it was released late last week.

“There is an old saying: Never buy something from somebody who is out of breath. There is a kind of breathless quality to what the Department of Transportation did last Thursday night. They get the IG report at 7:30; at 8:30 they announced, we made a decision: We got the report, studied it – we have some of the fastest lawyers in the world waiting on this – and away we go,” Dorgan said.

“Well, let me talk about what they missed. They missed the three key points with respect to the standards of safety, because the inspector general’s report said there is no data bank, no massive information with respect to accident reports, vehicle inspections, or driver violations in Mexico with Mexican trucking.

“The fact is they do not have equivalent enforcement in Mexico. That is just a fact. If you think there is equivalency between Canada, the United States, and Mexico, you just miss it.”

The members of the Senate apparently didn’t “miss it,” because Dorgan’s amendment was added to the FY 2008 Transportation, Housing and Urban Development Appropriations bill by a vote of 75-23. Click here to see how they voted.

Cornyn’s counter amendment failed 29-69.

An amendment cutting off all funding for any sort of cross-border program with Mexican motor carriers passed the House Tuesday, July 24, as part of its 2008 transportation appropriations bill.

Once the Senate passes its FY 2008 Transportation, Housing and Urban Development Appropriations bill, the two appropriations bills will be reconciled in a conference committee with representatives from both the Senate and House.

[greg3564]

Here's how they voted yesterday. Continue to write your representatives. I've sent off strongly worded letters to the reps from Texas who voted against this bill.

Alabama: Sessions (R-AL), Yea Shelby (R-AL), Yea
Alaska: Murkowski (R-AK), Nay Stevens (R-AK), Nay
Arizona: Kyl (R-AZ), Nay McCain (R-AZ), Not Voting
Arkansas: Lincoln (D-AR), Yea Pryor (D-AR), Yea
California: Boxer (D-CA), Yea Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
Colorado: Allard (R-CO), Nay Salazar (D-CO), Yea
Connecticut: Dodd (D-CT), Yea Lieberman (ID-CT), Nay
Delaware: Biden (D-DE), Yea Carper (D-DE), Yea
Florida: Martinez (R-FL), Nay Nelson (D-FL), Yea
Georgia: Chambliss (R-GA), Yea Isakson (R-GA), Yea
Hawaii: Akaka (D-HI), Yea Inouye (D-HI), Yea
Idaho: Craig (R-ID), Not Voting Crapo (R-ID), Yea
Illinois: Durbin (D-IL), Yea Obama (D-IL), Yea
Indiana: Bayh (D-IN), Yea Lugar (R-IN), Nay
Iowa: Grassley (R-IA), Nay Harkin (D-IA), Yea
Kansas: Brownback (R-KS), Yea Roberts (R-KS), Yea
Kentucky: Bunning (R-KY), Nay McConnell (R-KY), Nay
Louisiana: Landrieu (D-LA), Yea Vitter (R-LA), Nay
Maine: Collins (R-ME), Yea Snowe (R-ME), Yea
Maryland: Cardin (D-MD), Yea Mikulski (D-MD), Yea
Massachusetts: Kennedy (D-MA), Yea Kerry (D-MA), Yea
Michigan: Levin (D-MI), Yea Stabenow (D-MI), Yea
Minnesota: Coleman (R-MN), Yea Klobuchar (D-MN), Yea
Mississippi: Cochran (R-MS), Nay Lott (R-MS), Nay
Missouri: Bond (R-MO), Nay McCaskill (D-MO), Yea
Montana: Baucus (D-MT), Yea Tester (D-MT), Yea
Nebraska: Hagel (R-NE), Nay Nelson (D-NE), Yea
Nevada: Ensign (R-NV), Yea Reid (D-NV), Yea
New Hampshire: Gregg (R-NH), Nay Sununu (R-NH), Nay
New Jersey: Lautenberg (D-NJ), Yea Menendez (D-NJ), Yea
New Mexico: Bingaman (D-NM), Yea Domenici (R-NM), Nay
New York: Clinton (D-NY), Yea Schumer (D-NY), Yea
North Carolina: Burr (R-NC), Nay Dole (R-NC), Yea
North Dakota: Conrad (D-ND), Yea Dorgan (D-ND), Yea
Ohio: Brown (D-OH), Yea Voinovich (R-OH), Yea
Oklahoma: Coburn (R-OK), Yea Inhofe (R-OK), Yea
Oregon: Smith (R-OR), Yea Wyden (D-OR), Yea
Pennsylvania: Casey (D-PA), Yea Specter (R-PA), Yea
Rhode Island: Reed (D-RI), Yea Whitehouse (D-RI), Yea
South Carolina: DeMint (R-SC), Nay Graham (R-SC), Yea
South Dakota: Johnson (D-SD), Yea Thune (R-SD), Yea
Tennessee: Alexander (R-TN), Yea Corker (R-TN), Yea
Texas: Cornyn (R-TX), Nay Hutchison (R-TX), Nay
Utah: Bennett (R-UT), Nay Hatch (R-UT), Yea
Vermont: Leahy (D-VT), Yea Sanders (I-VT), Yea
Virginia: Warner (R-VA), Yea Webb (D-VA), Yea
Washington: Cantwell (D-WA), Yea Murray (D-WA), Yea
West Virginia: Byrd (D-WV), Yea Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea
Wisconsin: Feingold (D-WI), Yea Kohl (D-WI), Yea
Wyoming: Barrasso (R-WY), Yea Enzi (R-WY), Yea

[golfhobo]

Redsfan wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me how folks will make statements referencing illegal immigrants in regards to the Pilot Program issue and then try to refute that once it's pointed out to them that these are two entirely different issues.

I've read the entire thread several times, and NO ONE is confusing this issue but YOU. Every trucker on this board KNOWS that the Pilot program concerns Mexican (citizen) drivers coming into America from Mexico. The "Illegal aliens" already IN this country are a different story, and related ONLY in the way that they ARE driving down wages for those American Workers who WOULD work in those affected industries, while paying NO taxes, and burdening our healthcare system. However, keep in mind that, SHOULD a Mexican citizen driver abandon his truck in America, for a perceived "better life" making closer to American wages in ANY industry that might hire him.... he WOULD then become an "ILLEGAL allien/immigrant!"

Folks, they are not going to flip a switch and make it legal for all US companies to employ illegal immigrants for 15 cpm just because we allowed the conditions set forth in NAFTA to be put into action.

NO one, but you, is saying this. We are saying that American companies (shippers,) will "contract" with Mexican companies under the pilot program AND any future "free trade" provisions, to haul freight at a cheap rate (SINCE they pay their drivers the EQUIVALENT of 10-20 cpm) at a HUGE savings to that shipper! This will result in American freight companies having to EITHER drop their rates (and resultant PAY to their drivers) to compete..... OR lay off American drivers due to loss of freight VOLUME.

It is not going to happen. Keep up the conspiracy theories. Keep crying in your beer that you're going to lose your job. Keep screaming at the top of your lungs that Bush and his corporate friends are selling out the American people to dissolve the US into a North American Union. Keep doing all these things and you'll keep getting what you've got so far, which is to be largely ignored (and higher BP to boot).

And YOU can keep breathing the SAND in which you've buried your HEAD!

I keep hearing 11 cpm, 15 cpm, etc... thrown around in these discussions, but those folks need to check their facts. The bottom line is that once they get here, they do not work for less money than Americans do whether they are illegal or not.

Now YOU are confusing the facts! No one is talking about illegal immigrants who, "once they get here" are making closer to American wages! We are talking about Mexican citizens (legal ONLY in their own country,) who don't "GET HERE" but rather are domiciled in Mexico, but will NOW be allowed to haul freight into and out of America. They get to go HOME to Mexico (weekly, I suppose)... will probably make more money than the AVERAGE Mexican driver,..... and will REPLACE an American driver who used to haul that freight to the Mexican border! This will result in HUGE savings to American companies in freight costs, AND will cost American truckers their jobs!

Check with anyone who has ever been involved with illegal immigrants such as the construction or farming industries. They pay them the same as they would a US worker, but the difference is they actually show up for work (for a while anyway). Usually after a while they become "Americanized" and catch on to the system. They shack up with some fat chick who couldn't land any other suitors, they proceed to have 6 kids and kick back to live off welfare.

Do I detect a note of cynicism in your voice? :lol: I don't actually KNOW what the "illegal immigrant" workers are making. But, I agree with your scenario of "Americanization." But, I DO know that most of them send MOST of their money HOME to Mexico! That HURTS our economy! I also know that, UNLESS they have a valid Soc Sec number, those companies are NOT paying any Employee taxes on them! (which adds to their "windfall" profits.) I ALSO know that, in MY area of the country anyway, those "Illegals" are responsible for a HIGHER rate of crime and fatal vehicular deaths!

Immigrants, whether illegal or not, do not come here to earn the same wages they could earn in their home country. They come here for the opportunity to earn higher wages and a better way of life. Why would one risk their life sneaking into a country just to earn the same wage with a higher cost of living?

A valid point, but AGAIN.... we're not talking about ILLEGAL immigrants! We are talking about a legal citizen of Mexico, who NOW has a right to DRIVE a truck DEEP into the Heartland (away from the prying eyes of Border Patrol agents,) and then MIGHT abandon that truck to go from making the Mexican equivalent of $5/HR to join his "illegal" brothers (which he would now be ONE of,) to make $10/HR! This way, he is NOT risking his LIFE crossing the border through a river! He is driving across with the "blessings" of Dubya! Cost of Living?? Is it really higher?? They live 10 or more to an apartment, pay NO taxes, and get FREE healthcare!! They buy Chinese clothing at Walmart for HALF the price of American made, and they don't pay much more for a taco in America than they do in Mexico!

[Actually, we are NOT talking so much about them becoming "Illegals" as we are about them taking our jobs .... and SAFETY issues!]

Folks who buy into this garbage are just simply ignorant. They get all of their education from talk show hosts on their XM radio while they cruise back and forth across our country.

As a "NEWER" poster on this board, I'm sure even YOU realize that American Truckers don't like to be called "ignorant!" Especially by someone who is confusing the facts, misinterpreting our posts, not really AWARE of the situation we speak of, and generally making assumptions about our level of intelligence and where we get our information and viewpoints!

Drivers can keep listening to guys like Steve Sommers who clearly benefit from the fact that you get all worked up over things like this or you can take it for what it is. We can beat the issue to death, but the Pilot Program is here, it's going to happen.

I admit that I am "ignorant" to who this Sommers guy is! I DON'T get my info from HIM! But, as of the last info I've read on this EXCELLENT site, from one of my "informed" fellow drivers..... the program is NOT YET "HERE!" Whether or not it "happens" is still up in the air, is being opposed by the majority of Americans, and NOW a similar majority of Representatives in Congress, and despite the last ditch "stand" by the lameduck (and totally Clueless Pres Bush,) will probably be "overridden" into obscurity!

What's wrong with calmly keeping an eye on things to see how it turns out? My guess is that if it's as bad as you say it will be, it will be taken to task.

The SAME thing that was WRONG with getting "INTO the WAR in Iraq, without an EXIT strategy, just to "SEE HOW IT TURNED OUT!" :roll:

For the record.... Redsfan..... you seem like an intelligent guy. Your posts are not very inflammatory, and you are well spoken. But, that is NO SUBSTITUTE for knowing the facts, COMPREHENDING the posts before you attack them, nor "blindly" following the Political ambitions of the President with the WORST public confidence rating in American History!

I EXPECT a response... but please give it MORE consideration than you have to date. I am NOT yet done with my rebuttals! :lol:

HOBO


[/quote]

[utvolsr1]

[quote="greg3564"]Once again, ole Georgie Bush is threatening to veto because he isn't getting his way.

Sorry got rid of all the other stuff after this line you posted

Doesn't Bush have to have MORE then 1/3 of the votes to veto power. He didn't get that or did I hear the thing wrong and that want be the first time. :lol: