No, but I am sure you will.

That, after all, is what preachers do.

 

:lol: :lol: Rocky....... :lol:

yer like a silent fart with the windows rolled up.

I would bet money...this Spring when you hike them Mountain trails, and come up on a Big Brown...who would give the trail. :P

 

To coin an old MASH phrase from the beloved Col. Potter...

"Buffalo Bagels"....

 

And you hardly even know me. :lol:

 

Since God is all knowing and present everywhere, can anyone do anything now that would compell God to exclaim "whoa, what happened!" from his vantage point in the future? If we gain free will, God loses his.


So how is it that anyone comes to believe in God? After all, the Bible clearly teaches that we must believe in Jesus to be saved from our sins. Do we believe by our choice or is the belief given to us?



The term "freewill" or free will appears nowhere in the King James version of the New Testament but many times in the Old Testament when referring to offerings.


John 6:65 (KJV)
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jesus taught that our belief is predicated on God giving it to us.

Matthew 16:15-17 (KJV)
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? [16] And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

If the people walking with Jesus were not even able to understand who Jesus is on their own, how can people thousands of years later not only understand who he is, but believe in him?

In the parable of the sower, who prepares the good soil for the seed so that it will grow?



John 10:25-28 (KJV)
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. [26] But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Did the Pharisees have a choice?

Why is verse 27 worded this way and not something like "Many people upon hearing my voice become my sheep and follow me"? Was the Word having a bad day?

I know this debate goes has gone on and on and will continue to do so.

My concern is many people today hold back the harsh realities of the Gospel and try to persuade, cajole, and convince people to a watered down belief in Jesus only for them to get to the gates of heaven and have Jesus declare "depart from me, you who practise lawlessness, I never knew you." Matthew 7:23

 

But does God really lose his free will if we have ours? You could go to Genesis and ask that question about Adam & Eve. Was it predetermined by God that Adam & Eve would eat the forbidden fruit? Surely God knew they would but did He make them with the intent already planted by Him that they would disobey?

As far as how do we believe in God I think Romans 10:14 &15 states it fairly well.

14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news."

It is true that the specific term "free will" does not appear but there are other terms that do not appear. For example no where will you find a specific term or title of the Trinity. However, for most Christians it is one of the main pillars that holds our faith. Free will is persumed all the way back to Adam & Eve. God gave them the instructions to eat of any tree except the tree of knowledge. Again, back to an earlier question. Was it their choice to eat the forbidden fruit or an ingrained instruction placed in them by God to do it. If it was an ingrained predeterminded instruction then the serpent was not needed at all to prod them into it.

John 6:65 is a good passage but is it really saying that God must give it or is it saying that it is not possible to obtain it by mearly human means. This is the part where Jesus talks being the bread of life. At the same time he says no man can come except given to me by the Father he also says clearly that we must believe. So is this that God has pre-selected those who will be saved knowing full well the ones who will not? Or is it that God has enabled all in their heart to hear Him but it is our choice to listen and act?

John 6:28 & 29

28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

John 6: 35 - 40

35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.
36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37All tht the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Now at this point the people in the crowd begin to grumble and complain. Verse 42 talks about them saying he is the son of Joseph so how can he now say he comes down from heaven. Jesus takes them further in verse 43.

43"Stop grumbing among yourselves," Jesus answered.
44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God, Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

Now when taken as a whole this entire passage can get confusing. Several times Jesus references God "giving" those to Him. However, other times He clearly points out choices that must be made by the person. Example, believe in the one sent, He who comes to me will never go hungry, whoever comes to me I will never drive away, everyone who looks upon the Son and believes will have eternal life. So in context is "given" in verse 65 meant as a predetermined decision by God for each individual believer or a general term describing that God has enabled all to hear. I think Romans 1:18-23 may explain it.

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who surpress the truth by their wickedness,
19since what may be known about God is plain to them.
20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

I believe that Paul is clearly stating that we all have an ingrained general ability to hear and worship God. But it is our own wickedness that gets in the way. I think this also answeres your quesiton about how if those who walked with Jesus did not know or believe him how can we now. Jesus came at a time of some of the most wickedness and sin. Many of those He taught were stooped in the works based belief forced upon them by the elite leaders of the faith in their time. If you read in the gospels about Jesus's death you will notice that even though Jesus told them many times he must die and rise again it is not till after it happens that the disciples finally start connecting all the dots and remembering the prophecies taught to them since youth. And then again remember, the disciples were not the most educated group of men. They were the laborers of the day not scholars.

In the parable of the sower, the farmer is the one who is sowing the seed. That is anyone who spreads the Gospel from Jesus on forward. But again I believe your question can be answered going back to Romans 1. But for another answer lets look at the parable in Matthew Chapter 13.

14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: You will be ever hearing but never understanding: you will be ever seeing but never perceiving;
15For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.

Here I believe is another example of Romans 1. Their hearts had become so hardened that they could not see. Now from Romans 1 that tells us it is most likely from their own wickedness and desire not to see. Maybe the better question is who hardens the soil instead of who tills it. From what we have gone over it appears our hearts were ready made for planting but by our own neglect we have allow the field to harden and become barren.

Did the pharisees have a choice? Yes I believe they did. I may be wrong but if I recall correctly I believe Joseph of Arimathea was a rich man and part of the ruling elite in the Jewish faith. So if that is correct then there is one pharisee who had a choice. Of course the other famous zelot who made a choice was Saul....later know as Paul.

Following along with your questions, I do not know why verse 27 was not worded differently. Again, as pointed out earlier is this is akin to the "given" .vs "enabled" question. Romans 1 says we are enabled to hear and worship God from the begining but our wickedness can stop that ability and harden our hearts.

To close this post I have to say I honestly do not understand your last statement or how it relates to predetermination. So instead of trying to assume meaning I will not comment. But the verse from Matthew you cite is very interesting. It is from the passage where Jesus talks about a tree and its fruit. Good trees give good fruit, bad trees give bad fruit. Using the Holy Spirit and the Bible as a guide we will be able to know which is which. One similarity I can make is something Slimland and I were discussion on the prophecy topic. That there are many who preach in the name of Jesus but only for their own monetary benefit. Even though the message they send out is of the Gospel it is for their own selfish means. Does this diminsh the message if it saves someone? No. Does it mean that the preacher who did it only for money will get into Heaven? No as well. It is not by works we are saved it is by faith.

chap, thank you for a good post. It was great to use it to get into the Word and study tonight. Sorry that the post is so long. (PS scripture from NIV)

 

Not a preacher, just a teacher, Fozzy mad an inacurate statment and I corrected him. And yes I believe I will go on. :lol:

 

The difference between a teacher and preacher is as follows.

A preacher speaks from faith and will not change their perspective, only the way they deliver their message.

A teacher speaks from knowledge and will modify their perspective as the knowledge developes or changes.

So litttle has changed in Religion (dogma) in the last 1000 years, it is almost not worth noting.

All of your statments are based on christian dogma.

So, no, you are not a teacher, you are a preacher.

Teachers "teach" from more than one perspective.

You "preach" a doctrine.

Understand, that this is not meant as an insult. It is an observation.

 

Well Redeemed said it all, WOW, and I didn't have to hurt my hands.

I guess the only thing left is the last statement.


To tell the truth there are no harsh reality's to the Gosphel. "He that BELIEVES IN ME, even though he is dead, yet shall he live" This is the Gosphel in a nut shell.

This is what Peter, Paul, John,etc. Where trying to get across to people.
Jesus said it himself "The worlds sin, is not believing in me".
Hebrews tell's us Sin is unbelief, and (sin's) "plural" is the fruit of unbelief.
Jesus died for the sins of the world, this forgivness is forever. But if He is not accepted, that still leaves you dead from your sins previously commited. This is where His ressurection comes in, it gives new life. So now a believer is dead to sin, why? Because he believe's in the life giver.
In order to have eternal life, you must have eternal forgivness. So this is what Jesus did, He died once for all, and rose again to give new life. But the only way to have the new life is to accept Him.
Churches and denominations, have made this a mockery, they make it so hard for anyone to accept Christ, and the plan of redemtion was so simple.
Mosses raised the serphent on the pole, and God told him "anyone who looks on the serphent on the pole will live" it was that simple. That was a forerunner to Christ on the Cross, Look at My Son, and BELIEVE He is, and you will be saved.

So now God does not deal with a true Christian on the basis of Sin, but on the basis of a new life.

The one's who he tells depart from me. Are the one's who Denied Him. EX: Judas walked with Him, Talked with Him, Was there when He fed the 5,000. Was there when He raised Lazurus, etc. But in the end he did not BELIEVE Jesus was the Messiah.
It is all a matter of the heart and mind.

The only Sin atributed to man, is What did you do with Gods Son. Did you accept Him or Not.
While we were enemy's God reconciled us to Himself, So be reconciled.
It is a free gift, to be accepted by a Freewill.

So now we know there is no more sacrifice for SIN. Therfor if we keep on in SIN, we have tread foot the Son of God, and counted His blood like that of a bull and a goat. So agian what is Sin, but unbelief, this is a choice of Free Will.
God predestined everyone, but He gave us a choice if we want to accept it.

"If you choose not to decide, you still have mad a choice" Rush
"On the edge of sleep I heard voices behind the door, the known and nameless, the familiar and faceless, my angels and demons at war. Which one will lose, depends on what I choose, or maybe which voice I ignore"

 

No sir you are incorrect

With all due respect Rocky, I do not preach a doctrin, I teach the Word of God, that is in the Bible. If I tought a doctrin or preached, then I would be putting limites on Gods word in which I teach. it would be Like a Religion, instead of a Life.

No offence Taken.

I understand what you are saying, I hope you understand what I am saying.

I cannot stand Religion, it is the downfall of man.

But I love being a Child of God.