[Twilight Flyer]

As I said, I believe in the Bible 100% and study it quite a bit. But I also don't believe in restricting God and putting him into a man-made box. I am very comfortable with my beliefs and with my relationship with my Maker.

If, when I die, I find out that I am wrong about the whole evolution thing being a part of God's plan, then I'm wrong. It doesn't change my belief and faith in Him. But I hold fast to the belief that for everything there is a purpose and a reason and nothing goes beyond God. So it's practically impossible NOT to believe that evolution is all part of his plan, that His days are millions of years to us, that science is all part of the miracles that He has granted us.

[mommee]

nice to see you still lurking from the bat cave. :lol: :clap:

[matcat]

I have to disagree with evolution. Yes I agree it is possible and God could of used that to his means, but there are scientific and biblical oppositions to evolution.

A lot of scientists try to twist things to make it look like it is evolution when it is not. They take bits and pieces of scientific data, and puzzle it together to fit their hypothesis, bias opinion, and expectations. A true scientist operates outside of bias and preconceived notion. If one is taught the concept of evolution and that is what they believe, and they grow up to be scientists, they have preconceived notions and bias that will influence their judgement. Often taking a point that appears to align with the theory, but neglecting to look at the 10 other points that negate the possibility, just making up more theory and hypothesis as to why they appear to neglect it, but they BELIEVE it does not because of some obscured unproven theory to try to prove their opinion of it, even though reality is smacking them in the face otherwise .

[Twilight Flyer]

I have to disagree with evolution. Yes I agree it is possible and God could of used that to his means, but there are scientific and biblical oppositions to evolution.

For the evolution of man, yes. But not for the evolution of species.

Have you ever wondered why there is all kinds of fossil and DNA proof that certain every day creatures evolved from certain ancient creatures? But there is no corresponding evolutionary track from ancient “man” to us and scientists are always looking for that elusive “missing link?” It’s because there is no evolution of man – no missing link. If we date back to our biological roots of Adam and Eve, then our species is really only about 6000 to 8000 years old – a mere eye blink in a true evolutionary track.

I still maintain that evolution of species is all part of God’s plan, just as the non-evolution of “man” is also part of it. You simply cannot dismiss evolution as a sham because it’s right there in front of us. There absolutely HAS to be a reason for it. Remember, the Bible covers the last 6000 to 8000 years. It covers the entirety of civilization. But the earth is billions of years old – that’s been proven. The earth was populated by millions of species that have been extinct for millions and millions of years – that’s been proven. It stands to reason then, that the creation didn’t span 168 actual hours over 7 days…it spanned millions, even billions of years. What hasn’t been proven and never will, is that man evolved over that same millions of years.

So, by the same token, creationism cannot be dismissed either, as much as hard-core scientists and atheists would like to. With our technology and abilities these days, if there was a missing link to irrevocably link us to early man, we would have found it already. Period. The very fact that we have not, indicates that there is no evolutionary link between us and early man to be found. Oh scientists can say they’re close to discovering it and we’re a close enough match to early man to “assume” that it is the truth. But that’s like me saying the number 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 is close to the number 1, simply because they are both numbers.

So why is it a difficult concept for people to accept that God has both sides covered? I don’t ask that to be confrontational…I point it out because it bears out why I believe what I believe. If you restrict God to what our narrow mortal minds can comprehend, then it’s virtually impossible to grasp or even accept without understanding, things that God is capable of. I look at who God is…He is the creator of all things…He is never-ending. I believe that He is logical and that there is a reason behind everything. I believe He has a wonderful sense of humor, too. How else would you explain the platypus? And while I don’t claim to understand how evolution fits into things, I can at least grasp the idea that somehow, He has it all working. That enables me to take a guess at it, at least, which is all that I’ve done. Am I right? Only God knows. The rest of us will not know those answers until we pass beyond our mortal life. But in the meantime, it makes for interesting conversation.

I’m off to work. It’s the start of another glorious week…of 90+ degree temperatures, oppressive jungle-like humid heat, and tornados. Aaah, to live in the Midwest. :roll: I might have to hole up in the bat cave for a couple of months until fall.

[Windwalker]

Originally Posted by Twilight Flyer

However, I draw the line at believing we evolved from chimps and apes. Here's why:

Do I believe Adam and Eve were the first mortal man and woman on earth? Yes I do, some 6,000 to 8,000 years ago, depending on how you view the timelines back then.

Do I believe in neanderthals, cro magnum man, and other "near" humans? Yes, I do, but I do not believe they are any relation to us today or Adam and Eve back then. I simply believe they are the natural evolutionary path of other simian type animals, nothing more. Maybe in another million years, the chimpanzees and apes of today would evolve into similar species.

Is it out of the question for something to evolve and be "close" to human? Hardly. Many animals today possess human traits, either inherent, evolved, or by mimicry. Take dolphins...a species that by all appearances and scientific study, possess a vocabulary and mastery of language that far outclasses our own. Dogs can be taught by humans to both understand us and to follow commands; parrots and other birds mimic and in many instances, understand human speech; chimps possess the ability to use tools, reason out problems, and live in communities. The list is endless. All of these are traits that humans possess, but none of those animals are human. So why is it not any different than with near humans of the past?

The fact is, science has proven that evolution is a part of our world's history. There is simply no refuting it - the evidence is there. Evolution is right. However, by the same token, there is also no evidence to disprove that God is behind all of this. There is no evidence to disprove His hand in all things. So by the very fact of not being able to disprove it, creation is right, too.

I did read an article more than a year ago, that stated evidence has been found that "Hominids" did split off from Chimps. And, for more than a million years, there was "fraternizing" going on between the two species that produced, what appears to be, a sterile off-spring. rather like a horse and a donkey producing a mule which can not reproduce. I've been looking for that article, and have not found it yet. It did state that the link between human and ape actually HAS been found. and it seemed to have dated back to about 3 to 5 million years BC.
But, isn't it just a bit out of character for a Supreme Diety that is so adept at guiding natural forces of nature to impress his will on the earth and mankind in Exodus, to resort to actual creation? It would seem to be far more within his own nature to have been guiding the forces of nature all along. That would put it right back into the lap of evolution.

Originally Posted by [/size][font=Times New Roman][size=3]marcel27208

i dont think i could and dont believe what a scientist tells me and what the bible says, you have to choose one or the other. And if your a believer then its the bible, no if, ands, or buts, about it! At least i would like to think that, but there are so many people in this world nowadays who claim to be christian, who make no practice of even picking up a bible. They claim to be religious, and its about your relationship with god not religion. But, then again you can study the bible for years and years and still not be saved. Not implying anyone here, but i just keep going back to the original question of "how well do you believe the bible"

[/font]
Actually, because of my own background, Engineering, I know how science works, and the standards that determine scientific evidence. When science says that the earth is 550 million years old, I know the standards that determines that figure. Those standards do not lie. Yet, they do not fit with the "Inspired Word of GOD". WHY????
It is not possible for both to be correct as written. It's rather like the difference between a handshake and a "round-house hay-maker". Both involve body contact, but... So, where does the discrepancy come from? From all form of logic, both should match and coincide. Why don't they? Since I know science to be "exact", the Bible must be something less than completely accurate.
The Dead Sea Scrolls were written between 150 and 70 BC, but both the Jewish and Muslum Faiths existed long before that. That means they are not "original text", but copies of still earlier texts. Perhaps even a compilation of them. But, copying anything from one language to another introduces "human error". And, how much of that human error was influenced by "the collective wisdom" of the time? (Now, there's phrase I love to hate. It has not had a very good track record at all over the centuries)
In the final tally, both accounts must be equal (science and the Bible). You can not have two different universes existing in the same place, at the same time, with two different time frames. If that worked, we wouldn't have car accidents... Both vehicles could occupy the same space at the same time without any problem.
I find another interesting concept dating back to the Flood of Gilgamesh (of Noah's Ark Fame) in that scripture says that GOD became sorry he created man, and wished to destroy what he had created. It sounds a bit odd to me that a Diety that is "all knowing", and knows all about everything, including everything about the future, would have even bothered creating man if he knew he was going to be saddened and try to destroy everything he made. A Diety that is "perfect" doesn't make mistakes... If he does, it makes him something less than perfect, which is not possible.
However, as a means of "culling" his creations so that only one species is left... Now, that makes much more sense. Mankind is allowed to progress unhindered by competitors, and it would insure no "fraternization" which might bring up still another species. Or, is Homo Sapien even the end of it all?
The fact is that we do not have enough actual evidence of the past, and it is possible that the evidence we need may no longer exist. Not all fossiles from the past have survived the ravages of time. And, I believe we have only found a small percentage of them. Looking at the evolution of many of our mountains, they would have had many verticle rock faces and cliffs that were subject to collapse (just like "THE OLD MAN" in NH) and might have buried much of the evidence we need. Today, we could have a super highway running 150 feet over the top of it all. And, how much of it has been eroded away by the effects of water and wind? What we know so far is only a scratch on the surface.

[BlooMoose]

I don't know, WW...my perfect "creations" (my beautiful children) sometimes "sadden" me, too...but I have no regrets that I had them. If there is no real purpose for us being here, I can't imagine my Creator even bothering with all of the headache.

Adam and Eve had sons who went out of the garden and married. Who did they marry? How should I know! But, I wholeheartedly believe that "cave" man was not "man" as we know "man". I believe that Adam and Eve were the beginning of the "thinking" man...and therin lies the difference, to me. They understood laws of man and consequences. Before we could "think" and understand and make choices, we were just animals. I know that animals have loyalty and empathy (some of them)...but it is still just their nature. Once we could think...we could choose. We could choose Christ...which, I feel, is our entire reason for being. He wants to be surrounded (on the day of his choosing) by those who choose Him, too. Just as we can't make decisions for our children after a certain point, He does not impose His will on us. Some kids stay "lost", too. Isa.43:21 says that the people He formed for Himself were formed that they may proclaim His praise. Everyday, as I look around (and even during difficult times), I see more things that amaze me and I think..."Jesus Christ! Whoever made this sure knew what they were doing!" It may seem like a lifetime (full of good and bad things...) but, since I do believe in the Bible 100%...I think how much longer eternity will be. I just dont question anymore. I don't feel like I'm so heavenly that I'm of no earthly good...because I still do things I shouldn't and make bad decisions...after all, I am human! This is why I never tell anyone that they must do this or that or they will go to hell! As long as we have a breath left in us, we don't have to go to hell. God gave us a thinking mind and expects us to use it. Science is beautiful (I love science...if science were a man, I'd have probably already married it...at least once or twice..sigh). But science works differently for me...to me, it confirms that there is a God. Science cannot prove to me that there is no God.

MAN! I can't believe I was compelled (as Slimland put it) back into this! I will put in my disclaimer...the ideas and thoughts above in no way reflect those of anyone else here, nor is the one who thought them qualified to defend them....they are merely the musings of a bloo muse....(I would say Moose but I'm afraid dle might hit me!) LOL...Sorry...I couldn't help it...

[Windwalker]

Originally Posted by BlooMoose

I don't know, WW...my perfect "creations" (my beautiful children) sometimes "sadden" me, too...but I have no regrets that I had them. If there is no real purpose for us being here, I can't imagine my Creator even bothering with all of the headache.

I was repeating what has been said, that GOD was saddened and angered with the evil among mankind. (It would seem that a perfect being has a temper also.)

Originally Posted by BlooMoose

Adam and Eve had sons who went out of the garden and married. Who did they marry?

According to the first book of Adam (Apocrypha), Adam and Eve had two sons and two daughters. After Caine killed Able, they had another son, Seth, and Cain and Seth took their sisters as wives. Incest.

Originally Posted by BlooMoose

How should I know! But, I wholeheartedly believe that "cave" man was not "man" as we know "man".

Actually, when they were expelled from the Garden, Adam and Eve did live in a cave. The "Cave of Treasures". So, they would have been "Cave People".

Originally Posted by BlooMoose

I believe that Adam and Eve were the beginning of the "thinking" man...and therin lies the difference, to me. They understood laws of man and consequences. Before we could "think" and understand and make choices, we were just animals. I know that animals have loyalty and empathy (some of them)...but it is still just their nature. Once we could think...we could choose. We could choose Christ...which, I feel, is our entire reason for being. He wants to be surrounded (on the day of his choosing) by those who choose Him, too. Just as we can't make decisions for our children after a certain point, He does not impose His will on us. Some kids stay "lost", too. Isa.43:21 says that the people He formed for Himself were formed that they may proclaim His praise. Everyday, as I look around (and even during difficult times), I see more things that amaze me and I think..."Jesus Christ! Whoever made this sure knew what they were doing!" It may seem like a lifetime (full of good and bad things...) but, since I do believe in the Bible 100%...I think how much longer eternity will be. I just dont question anymore. I don't feel like I'm so heavenly that I'm of no earthly good...because I still do things I shouldn't and make bad decisions...after all, I am human! This is why I never tell anyone that they must do this or that or they will go to hell! As long as we have a breath left in us, we don't have to go to hell. God gave us a thinking mind and expects us to use it. Science is beautiful (I love science...if science were a man, I'd have probably already married it...at least once or twice..sigh). But science works differently for me...to me, it confirms that there is a God. Science cannot prove to me that there is no God.

MAN! I can't believe I was compelled (as Slimland put it) back into this! I will put in my disclaimer...the ideas and thoughts above in no way reflect those of anyone else here, nor is the one who thought them qualified to defend them....they are merely the musings of a bloo muse....(I would say Moose but I'm afraid dle might hit me!) LOL...Sorry...I couldn't help it...

Actually, much of what the Bible says about earliest man may be less than accurate. The reason for my guess is:

(First Book of Adam and Eve, pseudepigrapha, apocrypha, lost books) This book is simply a version of an account handed down by word of mouth, from generation to generation, linking the time that the first human life was created to the time when somebody finally decided to write it down. This particular version is the work of unknown Egyptians. The lack of historical allusion makes it difficult to precisely date the writing, however, using other pseudepigraphical works as a reference, it was probably written a few hundred years before the birth of Christ. Parts of this version are found in the Jewish Talmud, and the Islamic Koran, showing what a vital role it played in the original literature of human wisdom. The Egyptian author wrote in Arabic, but later were found written in Ethiopic.

Although, the general idea may remain very close to the original, word of mouth has a way of losing specific data. It's call "HUMAN MEMORY LAPSE". So, do I believe the Bible is correct? As correct as humanly possible. Is it accurate, word for word as some would have me believe? Absolutely not. For too long a time, and in too many ways, human error has been allowed to be introduced into it. After all, alzheimer's is not an invention of the twentieth century, because that's when it was identified.

[matcat]

There is a method of which books of antiquity are measured for accuracy, and it is a very detailed and lengthy research process, however no other book in history gets a high a score as a bible with this test.

The dead sea scrolls where a big success for Christian scientists, because it predates the earliest known copies of the old testament, by something like 400 years, and there is not a single difference between them other then the spelling of a few names. The ancient jews where excellent at record keeping, plus management of the holy scripture was considered of the utmost hollyness, and handled very carefully.

I'm sorry but I do not buy into the 'has changed over time' argument at all. Also of note not too long ago they found scrolls even older then the red sea scrolls, not as complete, but what they have still matches completely.

No where does it say they married their siblings either, the bible does not say, some believe others where created with adam and eve, yet others believe the gene pool was designed to allow for some incest without a break down of the DNA.

God did know his creation would mostly turn to evil, he knew it before he created us. He knew he would flood the world, and he knew he would scatter the people and give them unique languages, as a side note there is some interesting study in that aspect of when God separated the people and destroyed the tower of babel, if one is so inclined to study it. He knew man would accept and allow evil long before he made us, why? Without the choice of evil, there is no free will, period. Or free will has NOTHING to do with our ability to make day to day choices, it has to do with our ability to choose God, or to not choose God, very simple.

[Windwalker]

Originally Posted by matcat

There is a method of which books of antiquity are measured for accuracy, and it is a very detailed and lengthy research process, however no other book in history gets a high a score as a bible with this test.

I admit, I am not familiar with this test.

Originally Posted by matcat

The dead sea scrolls where a big success for Christian scientists, because it predates the earliest known copies of the old testament, by something like 400 years, and there is not a single difference between them other then the spelling of a few names. The ancient jews where excellent at record keeping, plus management of the holy scripture was considered of the utmost hollyness, and handled very carefully.

I'm sorry but I do not buy into the 'has changed over time' argument at all. Also of note not too long ago they found scrolls even older then the red sea scrolls, not as complete, but what they have still matches completely.

I was not meaning to imply that they were sloppy about it, or careless. But, from one language to another,

Originally Posted by matcat

No where does it say they married their siblings either, the bible does not say, some believe others where created with adam and eve, yet others believe the gene pool was designed to allow for some incest without a break down of the DNA.

Forgotten Books of Eden: First Book of Adam and Eve

First Book of Adam and Eve


The First Book of Adam and Eve Prologue: The First Book of Adam and Eve details the life and times of Adam and Eve after they were expelled from the garden to the time that Cain kills his brother Abel. It tells of Adam and Eve's first dwelling - the Cave of Treasures; their trials and temptations; Satan's many apparitions to them; the birth of Cain, Abel, and their twin sisters; and Cain's love for his beautiful twin sister, Luluwa, whom Adam and Eve wished to join to Abel. This book is considered by many scholars to be part of the "Pseudepigrapha" (soo-duh-pig-ruh-fuh). The "Pseudepigrapha" is a collection of historical biblical works that are considered to be fiction. Because of that stigma, this book was not included in the compilation of the Holy Bible. This book is a written history of what happened in the days of Adam and Eve after they were cast out of the garden. Although considered to be pseudepigraphic by some, it carries significant meaning and insight into events of that time. It is doubtful that these writings could have survived all the many centuries if there were no substance to them.

Originally Posted by matcat

God did know his creation would mostly turn to evil, he knew it before he created us. He knew he would flood the world, and he knew he would scatter the people and give them unique languages, as a side note there is some interesting study in that aspect of when God separated the people and destroyed the tower of babel, if oe is so inclined to study it. He knew man would accept and allow evil long before he made us, why? Without the choice of evil, there is no free will, period. Or free will has NOTHING to do with our ability to make day to day choices, it has to do with our ability to choose God, or to not choose God, very simple.

I'm sorry. I have found them in the past, the english translations that anyone could read, but spending more than an hour tonight, I have not found them. This is the only thing I've found tonight. However, it does talk about Cain and his sister, and in the translations I read last year, it also said that Seth married his other sister.

[Windwalker]

Second Book of Adam and Eve - Chapter I.
And Adam carried him, his tears streaming down his face; and went to the Cave of Treasures, where he laid him, and wound him up with sweet spices and myrrh.
5 And Adam and Eve continued by the burial of him in great grief a hundred and forty days. Abel was fifteen and a half years old, and Cain seventeen years and a half.
6 As for Cain, when the mourning for his brother was ended, he took his sister Luluwa and married her, without leave from his father and mother; for they could not keep him from her, by reason of their heavy heart.
7 He then went down to the bottom of the mountain, away from the garden, near to the place where he had killed his brother.
8 And in that place were many fruit trees and forest trees. His sister bare him children, who in their turn began to multiply by degrees until they filled that place.

Chapter VII.
Seth marries Aklia. Adam lives to see grand children and great - grand children.

WHEN our father Adam saw that Seth was of a perfect heart, he wished him to marry; lest the enemy should appear to him another time, and overcome him.
2 So Adam said to his son Seth, "I wish, 0 my son, that thou wed thy sister Aklia, Abel's sister, that she may bear thee children, who shall replenish the earth, according to God's promise to us.
3 "Be not afraid, 0 my son; there is no disgrace in it. I wish thee to marry, from fear lest the enemy overcome thee.'
4 Seth, however, did not wish to marry; but in obedience to his father and mother, he said not a word.
5 So Adam married him to Aklia. And he was fifteen years old.
6 But when he was twenty years of age, he begat a son, whom he called Enos; and then begat other children than him,
7 Then Enos grew up, married, and begat Cainan.
8 Cainan also grew up, married, and begat Mahalaleel.

So, you see... I did not make any of it up.

And, Bloo... If you follow the link in my previous post, you'll see that it refers to them living in caves.