If that is the case, then I assume that the "sleeper berth" line didn't exist prior to the new regulations going into effect.....:roll:

Oh wait - it did. Because you can't log "off duty" when you are inside a CMV, unless you are using the CMV for personal conveyance.

Why don't you shut up now, golfhobo, before you make yourself look like more of an idiot (if that is possible)?


Of course, I'm sure you'll just ignore this little tidbit once again, since this is about the fourth time I've called you out on it.

 

PhuzzyGnu said:

Because I am not in the room talking with you. Therefore, I cannot add any emphasis to the words that I HOPE will make a light go off in your head! It is not a matter of shouting. It is a method of emphasizing the important points I am trying to make. Sorry if you couldn't grasp that concept.

Without them, my sarcastic humor seems to go over many members' heads. I have been misunderstood as being angry or critical before when I was really just kidding. Perhaps you'd like to ask the board administrators and the online forum community in general why they even have them. I didn't invent them.

I am not adamant about drinking in the truck. I don't even recommend it, nor do I do it (with a very few exceptions.) I am adamant about dispelling rumors and misinformation concerning what the regs say about it. The O.P. (a rookie) indicated that he had been told something that was not necessarily true. Was "I" the first to answer? No. YOU were, I believe. And your answer was not totally correct. Several others after you continued to spew their misconceptions about it. Within 5 or 6 posts, I'm sure the poor guy was totally confused. This is what happens when people like you and others answer questions without a firm understanding and knowledge of the regulaltions.

You want to talk about irresponsible, unnecessary and detrimental aspects of our industry? An industry that for 40 years turned a blind eye to popping amphetamines so that drivers could keep running for hours past their logbooks? I'm thinking back over the last few months, and all the accidents I've heard of.... especially the FATAL ones. Drivers falling asleeep at the wheel due to HOS violations, drivers running over people while they were texting and driving. Drivers taking off ramps too fast because they are in a hurry, or poorly trained. Hmm..... I just can't seem to recall more than ONE that involved driving under the influence.... and not EVEN one that was caused by a driver exercising his rights to "pursue activiites of his choosing" while OFF DUTY! :roll:

Well.... first of all, no offense really intended, but YOU have not stated too many verifiable FACTS. And I was not referring to you when I used the word PRUDE. But, perhaps that was a poor choice of words. I'm not asking you to "support" something you are against. I am asking you to allow what the regs allow as to a driver's personal choices while OFF DUTY. Is that so much to ask? You and others have over and over again stated... "leave the beer at home." is this NOT an "opinion?" Yet you state it as if it were a fact or regulation. I cannot find a reg that supports your "prudish" views.

Would the roads be safer if EVERY driver (including 4wheelers) could not drive if they had any alcohol in their bodies? Sure! The difference is that most professional truck drivers do NOT..... while many 4wheelers continue to do so. So who is the bad guy? The drunk 4wheeler on the road.... or the professional driver who had a few beers while OFF DUTY, and conformed to all regulations concerning time and BAC levels before "operating" his CMV?

I use the word PRUDE to categorize those of you who would deny a PROFESSIONAL driver his rights to his own life while OFF DUTY. IF such a total ban on drinking were part of the FMCSA regulations, there most certainly WOULD be a major driver shortage! :wink:

Get my point? :wink:

IF you were my boss, you would be required by the regulations I stated to INFORM me in writing, and procure my signature to prove I was aware of, any company regulations that by definition exceeded those of the FMCSA. IF I signed that, and violated your policy, you would have every right to fire me DESPITE the fact that I have never been late on a delivery.

I don't know what the outcome of those calls Twilight Flyer got were. Maybe every ONE of those drivers were fired based SOLELY on a phone call from an irate citizen. But, that is against the regulations EVEN if they have such a stringent policy, and would HAVE to be "couched" in some of the other details you mentioned. Does this happen? Yes. It is RIGHT? NO! It is by definiton unconstitutional and against the labor laws. But, without unionization of the OTR carriers, it is a CRIME that goes on every day!

NOW.... thanks to your questions, my answers, and MY discussion of the regulations..... drivers have a better understanding of what they can or cannot do, AND what some "prudish" companies might do. If YOU consider my participation in this to be a disservice to our industry..... well, you are entitled to your opinion.

Show me the reg that says I can't just because YOU want to assume ownership of the entire industry! I am ALL for professionalism in OUR industry. But, if the regulations make room for a driver to have a beer or two now and then, and YOU want to tell me I can't..... then, yes.... that is where I call "Prude." :wink:

You think YOUR or OUR industry is the most "safety sensitive" in the country? Grow up. How about Airline pilots who hold the lives of 400+ passengers in their hands. Or even those who BUILD the airplanes! How about the Air Traffic Controllers?? All of these (and many more) "industries" are just as important and sometimes MORE deadly than ours. Yet, THEY have regulations very similar to, if not identical to, ours! And not ONE of them tells a man he can't have a drink while OFF DUTY! All of them, however, have similar regulations concerning "bottle to throttle."

I have tried to present a common sense, reality based opinion of what the regulations do or do NOT control. If I have been at times overzealous, it is because I am immediately attacked when I try to do so. I don't have all the answers. I have agreed, yet shown, that different states have different laws concerning "physical control." My point is that in reality, those laws are never enforced in a truckstop. And if you are OTR, you know I am right. And, BTW.... have you noticed that no one is claiming that these regs have ANY impact on the "local wusses?" :lol:

You may not agree with me, nor see things the way I do. And you may have poked fun at my posting style. I really don't care. I DO appreciate that you ASKED these questions, and your time if you bothered to read my response.

Have a safe day, and a great career, PhuzzyGnu! And believe me.... you have nothing to fear from ME if we pass on the road! I will be sober, professional and courteous! And I will keep my nose out of your business! 8)

 

Yup - keep sidestepping the truth. It's just making you look more and more like a fool.


Rev; is finding this more and more humorous with every new post.

 

Rev, I was tempted to answer your childish post in like manner. But, I have no desire to see this thread locked. I'm sure Twilight is hovering overhead just WAITING for me to get out of line. :lol:

Do you actually STILL not understand that both lines 1 and 2 are considered off duty? :shock: Even tho I quoted you the reg that said OFF DUTY time spent in the sleeper berth is logged on line 2 (or something like that.)

Let's start from square one: The HOS require 10 hours of COMBINED off duty time (they said consecutive, but later came up with the right wording) before a driver can drive a cumulative 11 hour day. Now..... IF line 2 is NOT off duty, then HOW can you log 8 hours in there and have it count toward your 10 hour OFF DUTY requirement? Better yet.... how could you log a full 10 hours in the sleeper and have it satisfy the requirement UNLESS it is considered OFF DUTY? :roll:

The reg is VERY clear on this, and is CLEARLY worded as I pointed out before! I am not saying you can or should log line 1 while in the sleeper, Rev. Perhaps, that is the disconnect. I am saying that ALL time logged on line 2 (sleeper berth) is considered OFF DUTY, and IF you stay in there for 8 hours straight, you can combine it with another 2 hour block to MEET THE REQUIREMENTS of your 10 hour OFF DUTY break for the day! JUST because line 2 is labeled "sleeper berth" on a log sheet, and line 1 is labeled OFF DUTY, does NOT mean that BOTH aren't considered OFF DUTY for the purposes of meeting the off duty 10 hour requirement!

You can meet your 10 hour off duty requirement by logging 10 straight hours in the sleeper if you are IN it! Are you saying that this is NOT "off duty" and therefore you cannot drive another 11 hours after being in the sleeper for 10 hours straight? :shock:

the only one looking like an idiot here is YOU! 95% of the drivers on the road know that sleeper time is off duty time! :roll:

Rev, I don't want to treat you with the contempt you have shown for ME lately, but I just don't understand your problem here. Line 1 and 2 are BOTH considered OFF duty PER the regulation I quoted you before! If you don't understand that, perhaps you need to humble yourself and ask me (or anyone else) to explain it to you in 3rd grade English! :roll:

You said:

Well, of course it did! Because for as long as I've been able to tell, drivers have ALWAYS been able to satisfy the 10 hour (or 8 hour) OFF DUTY requirement by splitting the SLEEPER berth time to add up to the requirement! The OLD rules didn't require one of those breaks to be a full 8 hours, but they HAD to combine to meet the requirement of OFF DUTY time necessary for a driver to keep driving!

It don't matter if you call it Off Duty or SLEEPER.... as long as it meets the regs to satisfy the OFF DUTY requirement between each DUTY TOUR, because according to the REGS, which I SHOWED you, BOTH lines are considered as OFF DUTY time.

Are you DAFT man??? :shock: :shock:

 

No, they aren't. One is called Off Duty, where the driver has been relieved of all duty by the motor carrier and is free to pursue any activity he or she wishes, and the other is called "sleeper berth", where a driver gets the federally mandated 10 hours of restorative rest. They are not, nor will they ever be, the same exact thing. If they were the same, then it would be legal to log sleeper berth time as off duty time. But it isn't.

If a driver is under dispatch, they cannot be considered Off Duty, because they are not relieved of duty by the motor carrier. The regs specifically state what has to happen for a driver to be considered Off Duty. Climbing into the sleeper berth is not amongst those things.

I know in your little world, you want sleeper berth time to be considered off duty time, so that drivers can get hammered out of their minds in their trucks, but that isn't the case.

BTW, being in the cab of the truck is still considered On Duty (not driving)*. Just thought you should know.




*unless the CMV is being used for personal conveyance.

 

Rev said:
Does that include having a few beers? :lol:

Um, sorry but the feds don't mandate 10 hours of restorative rest. We'll clear this up for you later! :lol:

Actually, although you're not supposed to, a SOLO driver CAN! Because he IS FREE to do as he pleases, and doesn't have to be in the sleeper (although he should log it that way if he's IN there.) Now..... it is DIFFERENT for "teams." A Team driver who is OFF DUTY for say 10 hours while his co-driver is making miles, CANNOT EVER under any circumstance log that time as line 1 "off duty." NOT if the truck is moving! He MUST show his 10 hour OFF DUTY requirement as spent in the sleeper - line 2- because the truck is moving and he is NOT free to leave the premises obviously! :lol:

But, it is still "OFF DUTY" or he would't be able to driver 11 hours straight after I turn the beast over to him! :roll:

This is just totally wrong. Consider the driver with a long haul dispatch, say 3 days or more to the West Coast. He drives 11 and shuts down. Is he STILL "under dispatch?" sure..... can he take 10 hours off duty each night? SURE! During those 10 hours, is he ROD and relieved of responsibility? In most cases YES! Hazmat doesn't apply, and SOME companies might not adhere to the off duty - off responsibility thing! But, unless they want their driver to burn up his 70 while sitting overnight, they HAVE to allow him his 10 hours off duty!

You say a driver under dispatch cannot be considered ROD by his company..... well..... I've got a little card that does JUST that... EVEN for short periods for meals!! It says I am ROD!!! You GET that?

There is NO reg that says the only time a driver can be ROD and OFF DUTY for 10 hours, is when he is EMPTY! Are you nuts??? Oh that's right.... you're an O/O and don't really UNDERSTAND the regs as they apply to company drivers! No problem.... your ignorance is excused! :roll:

I don't care WHAT they do while in the sleeper, and really neither does the FMCSA! Although, they make the provision 8 hours now, it is only so that a drvier has the OPPORTUNITY to get 7.5 hours of sleep as they intended. But, regardless..... here is the reg ONE MORE TIME for those on the Rev's SHORT BUS:

Part 395 - Hours of Service Records of Duty

(h)(1) Off duty. Except for time spent resting in a sleeper berth, a continuous line shall be drawn between the appropriate time markers to record the period(s) of time when the driver is not on duty, is not required to be in readiness to work, or is not under any responsibility for performing work.

(h)(2) Sleeper berth. A continuous line shall be drawn between the appropriate time markers to record the period(s) of time off duty resting in a sleeper berth, as defined in §395.2 (If a non-sleeper berth operation, sleeper berth need not be shown on the grid.)

The first paragraph explains how you would log Off duty time NOT spent in a sleeper berth And the second paragraph tells you to log your OFF DUTY time that you spend IN your berth, on line 2.

Now..... I'm starting to get an idea of what the REV is hung up on. CLEARLY I have once again shown that BOTH lines are considered as OFF DUTY time, (and MUST be for them to be able to total the 10 hours OFF DUTY requirement per day)

but.... the Rev feels that time spent in the sleeper berth is not time that you can leave the premises or do what you want. To some extent, that is correct! However, if you are taking a full 10 (not splitting) or a 34 hour reset, there is no restrictions on how much time you must BE in the sleeper. Under THESE conditions, you can legally log say 6 hours in the sleeper, and it is STILL unequivicably part of your OFF DUTY time! You are free to log in the sleeper if you want..... or stay in the truckstop all night long! I contend that you can ALSO be sitting in the cab listening to music.... but we won't GO THERE right now! Ponit is.... EVEN while in the sleeper "resting" the FMCSA cannot mandate that you be sleeping! You can be watching a movie! You can be "pleasing yourself!" :shock: :lol:

You can be doing anything you want, but you CANNOT be considered "on duty" and yes..... for that period of time.... you ARE ROD by your company as they MUST comply with the requirements to give you your rest time! The regs clearly state that you can answer a phone call or two if it is not "REPEATEDLY" interrupting your rest!

You REALLY want to know why there IS a line 2??? As I told Mackman, it is so that you can log ONLY 8 hours on that line and it will STILL be considered as OFF DUTY. Why?? Because of computerized log entry programs! MOST of us use "scannable logs." These logsheets are lined up on a scanner and scanned into DOT programs that register the "continuos lines" and check them for violations of the 11 hour and 14 hour rules (not to mention the 60/70 rules.)

IF you drew a line on line 1 that was only 8 hours long, even though you were in the sleeper, it wouldn't COUNT. Even though you drew another 2 hour line later! NO 10 hour break for you..... NO DRIVING TIME! :roll: The PROGRAM is designed to differentiate between line 1 and 2, and will ACCEPT an 8 hour entry on line 2 and combine it with..... search for.... another 2 hour break on EITHER or combined lines 1 and 2.... and check to see if you completed this OFF DUTY break before you exceeded your 11 hour driving time (computer checks line 3) and before you exceeded your 14 hour window (computer checks and compares ALL lines for compliance!)

I ain't no computer programmer, so I may not have stated that too clearly. But, I'm pretty sure that MACKMAN understands what I'm saying, and if the REV does not..... well...... sucks to be as stupid as him! :lol:

Line 2 is there for both the computer AND the roadside LEO giving you an inspection. It is there so you can log 8 hours and get the heck out of Dodge! It is there for a variety of reasons, but one thing is CLEAR!! It IS considered as part of your OFF DUTY requirement for the day OR for a reset! If you STILL can't understand this...... turn in your keys Driver!

I am DONE with this First Grade topic, and will NOT repeat these interpretations again! There are 4 lines on a standard logsheet Grid! The top two are considered OFF DUTY time..... and the bottom two are considered ON DUTY time! Anyone who doesn't understand that has no business driving a truck! :roll:

Hobo

 

Yes. They can get as shitfaced as they want when they are off duty, because the carrier has released them from all obligations to the CMV.

Whatever. Sidestep the issue by throwing split sleeper berths in.

WTF? If a driver is responsible for a CMV, then he is not free to do as he pleases. The carrier has not released him, so he is not off duty. It's becoming more and more obvious that you don't understand what Off Duty is. Besides, and apparently you still don't get this, a driver cannot log "off duty" while inside a CMV unless they are using the CMV for personal conveyance. EVER.

Huh? Are you making up new regs for teams now?

WTF?

Nope. Wrong answer. You don't win the prize. Time for you to go back to CDL school.

10 hours in the sleeper berth satisfies the requirements without having to be relieved of duty or obligation to the CMV.

Not while you're in the CMV it doesn't relieve you of duty. Maybe one of these days you'll understand that.

I never said that there was.

Uh huh. Sure. That's why they made regs pertaining to this. :roll:



So what is your point? It is a regulation that says you have to log sleeper berth time as sleeper berth time. That's something you've been arguing against from the beginning.

You sure can. I never said you couldn't. But when you're in the sleeper berth, it gets logged as sleeper berth.

Let's use the "team" example. If your team driver is sitting in the passenger seat while you are driving, how does he log it? Show me a reg that says solo drivers are different.

Absolutely. You aren't coming up with anything profound here.

The regs clearly state that you cannot have alcohol too.

I wasn't aware that they had "scannable logs" back in the 70's, when log books were called "comic books". More golfhobo fantasies, I guess.

So once again, prior to computer scanning of logs, there was no sleeper berth on a log? Did you just fall off the wagon?

So once again, prior to the 8 hour rule, and prior to scanning, there was no line 2?

I hope you stick to this. The entire CAD community will benefit from you leaving this, and every other subject in this particular forum, alone.

 

No, that would be me. 8) TF is OFF DUTY and it is now my "Tour Of Duty". :lol:

For the record: I teach at a CDL school (part time). I printed out ALL the pages and we had a "round table" about this very topic. Between myself, 5 other instructors and the owner we could not agree 100%. As luck would have it the school inspector for the state dropped in today. He too had more questions than answers, but did say it was REFRESHING to see a school being "proactive" when things where not clear.

I must say that at the school we spend VERY little time on logging, so for the most part this was a non-issue for us. We were ALL in agreement about telling students to stay away from ALL drink while out on the road. Save it for hometime.

As for as what we came up with.......... I'll keep that to myself. I have seen that BOTH of you can Pi$$ WAY past what I can do. :wink:

 

That's just mean.

 

Ok I am going to throw in my 2 cents here, on the line 1 and 2 deal. I was taught in school that Line's 1 and 2 are both considered to be OFF DUTY. The point between the two is really to distinguish that if you are spending time off in your truck, how much of that time are you supposively sleeping, that is why a split sleeper rule requires 8 hours of sleeper berth time, plus another 2 hours in any combination of line 1 and 2. Your 10 hour reset can indeed be in any combination of lines 1 and 2, there is no mandatory time requirements for either line, except for in the case of split. You could go between Line 1 and 2 every 15 minutes for 10 hours straight, and you are legal to have a 10 hour. Same deal for a 34. There is no requirement that you spend so much time in either line 1 or 2. Now technically you can only log line 2 while IN the sleeper berth.

Now I disagree with Rev, that if you are 'in' the truck you cannot be off duty. That is straight up bologna! Now yes there is a regulation that if you are in the driver or passenger seat you must be either line 3 or 4, and I have heard the argument many a time, that this means you cannot be on line 1 or 2 while sitting in the front seat listening to music or something, and though technically you cannot be, the spirit of the regulation is that if you are a trainer for example, and you are in the passenger seat, teaching or monitoring your trainee, that you are not logging off duty to get your hours back. But it is not in the spirit of the law to say you cannot hang out, talk on the CB, listen to the radio, use your laptop, etc from the front seats. Yes, there are those LEO's out there that could and would cite you for log violation, but the majority would not.