Traffic stoppage and logbooks
#21
03-19-2007, 06:35 AM
Originally Posted by golfhobo
This says absolutely NOTHING about a requirement for a dispatcher to check every weather forecast or state construction report (using phones, computers or anything else,) before dispatching a run, and certainly wouldn't apply to a temporary shutdown in a construction zone that could not POSSIBLY have been known about hours if not DAYS before I even got there.
The fact that there were 4wheelers caught in this shutdown, indicates it was not advertised even locally before it happened. Regardless, as long as my dispatcher didn't KNOW about it BEFORE he dispatched me, it DOES IN FACT qualify for the exemption, and I WILL be allowed to use said exemption. Officer: "Mr. Golfhobo, why did you drive 2 hours beyond your 11 hour driving time?" Golfhobo: "Well, Mr. Officer, I didn't know that there was road construction, and it slowed me down, so I was making up the lost time." Officer: "How in the hell do you think you have the right to do that?" Golfhobo: "Well, my dispatch didn't bother looking up the road construction information for the trip that they planned on me. I didn't bother doing it either. We could have looked it up, but we chose not to. So, as you can see, since we didn't know about it, we can drive beyond the 11 hours." Officer: "I see what you mean now. Here's your citation. Shut the rig down in the back lot."
#22
03-19-2007, 07:21 AM
Once again, let me know how this "ignorance" defense works for you.
Officer: "Mr. Golfhobo, why did you drive 2 hours beyond your 11 hour driving time?"
Officer: "How in the hell do you think you have the right to do that?"
Officer: "I see what you mean now. And I appreciate that you keep such a clean and legible logbook. You must be tired. Get some good rest, and be careful out there."
Officer: Good boy, Golfy! I wish we had MORE out here that understood the regs like you do!
:wink:
__________________
Remember... friends are few and far between. TRUCKIN' AIN'T FOR WUSSES!!! "I am willing to admit that I was wrong." The Rev.
#23
03-19-2007, 07:43 AM
Originally Posted by golfhobo
Once again, let me know how this "ignorance" defense works for you.
The 14 hour clock remains unchanged, so I saved myself the additional 2 hours needed for driving. But, if I DID.....
Officer: "Mr. Golfhobo, why did you drive 2 hours beyond your 11 hour driving time?"
Officer: "How in the hell do you think you have the right to do that?"
The officer pulls out the big green FMCSR book, and turns to good ol section 395.2 Officer: "Here's what the Adverse conditions cover, Mr. Lawbreaker Hobo."
Adverse driving conditions means snow, sleet, fog, other adverse weather conditions, a highway covered with snow or ice, or unusual road and traffic conditions, none of which were apparent on the basis of information known to the person dispatching the run at the time it was begun.
Officer then turns to the interpretation of section 395.1 Officer: "Read this section, and then get the hell out of my scale house and into your truck for the OOS order I've given you."
Question 5: How may a driver utilize the adverse driving conditions exception or the emergency conditions exception as found in §395.1(b), to preclude an hours of service violation?
Guidance: An absolute prerequisite for any such claim must be that the trip involved is one which could normally and reasonably have been completed without a violation and that the unforeseen event occurred after the driver began the trip. Drivers who are dispatched after the motor carrier has been notified or should have known of adverse driving conditions are not eligible for the two hours additional driving time provided for under §395.1(b), adverse driving conditions. The term "in any emergency" shall not be construed as encompassing such situations as a driver's desire to get home, shippers' demands, market declines, shortage of drivers, or mechanical failures.
#24
03-19-2007, 09:05 AM
Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago
Originally Posted by golfhobo
Once again, let me know how this "ignorance" defense works for you.
I didn't SAY that. In fact, if the road is shutdown, I probably WOULD, in fact, pull over and rest. Careful now.... let's examine the English. The fact that I would SAY I pulled over does not in anyway preclude the fact that I would IN FACT pull over. Either way, I would have to SAY that I did. :wink:
The 14 hour clock remains unchanged, so I saved myself the additional 2 hours needed for driving. But, if I DID.....
Officer: "Mr. Golfhobo, why did you drive 2 hours beyond your 11 hour driving time?"
Well.... we might need a referee here, but I believe a shutdown on a working highway caused by construction that does NOT permanently shut down the road, certainly DOES qualify as Unusual Road or TRAFFIC conditions. I'm sure the locals don't just go out there to PARK and smootch! :shock:
Officer: "How in the hell do you think you have the right to do that?"
The officer pulls out the big green FMCSR book, and turns to good ol section 395.2 Officer: "Here's what the Adverse conditions cover, Mr. Lawbreaker Hobo."
Adverse driving conditions means snow, sleet, fog, other adverse weather conditions, a highway covered with snow or ice, or unusual road and traffic conditions, none of which were apparent on the basis of information known to the person dispatching the run at the time it was begun.
You shoud read the definition of a FREEway. Officer then turns to the interpretation of section 395.1 Officer: "Read this section, and then get the hell out of my scale house and into your truck for the OOS order I've given you."
Question 5: How may a driver utilize the adverse driving conditions exception or the emergency conditions exception as found in §395.1(b), to preclude an hours of service violation?
Guidance: An absolute prerequisite for any such claim must be that the trip involved is one which could normally and reasonably have been completed without a violation and that the unforeseen event occurred after the driver began the trip. I believe we were using as a GIVEN that the trip could have been completed without the shutdown. I began my trip last Friday. I had no way of knowing that a road that has been opened SINCE then, would be shut down TODAY for a few hours. Drivers who are dispatched after the motor carrier has been notified or should have known of adverse driving conditions are not eligible for the two hours additional driving time provided for under §395.1(b), adverse driving conditions. So... you agree that it is the responsibility of the state to NOTIFY every dispatcher in the country of a temporary shutdown? The term "in any emergency" shall not be construed as encompassing such situations as a driver's desire to get home, shippers' demands, market declines, shortage of drivers, or mechanical failures. Obviously making it clear that bullsh*t reasons won't be accepted. Funny that ROAD CONSTRUCTION that temporarily results in a SHUTDOWN is not listed here. Me: If YOU can prove that you notified MY dispatcher of it, BEFORE he dispatched me, or that he in fact KNEW about it, and/or that it was reasonable to ASSUME a shutdown on any and every of the thousands of miles of road construction going on around the country, and that this is a USUAL condition of the road and traffic here, then I'll park it. Otherwise, let me speak to your supervisor. If the FMCSA wanted to mean that a dispatcher SHOULD HAVE KNOWN about it (your words - not theirs) they would have SAID so. Note that they used the single word "KNOWN." Your are grabbing at straws! :roll:
__________________
Remember... friends are few and far between. TRUCKIN' AIN'T FOR WUSSES!!! "I am willing to admit that I was wrong." The Rev.
#25
03-19-2007, 09:23 AM
Originally Posted by golfhobo
I didn't SAY that. In fact, if the road is shutdown, I probably WOULD, in fact, pull over and rest. Careful now.... let's examine the English. The fact that I would SAY I pulled over does not in anyway preclude the fact that I would IN FACT pull over.
Either way, I would have to SAY that I did. :wink:
Well.... we might need a referee here, but I believe a shutdown on a working highway caused by construction that does NOT permanently shut down the road, certainly DOES qualify as Unusual Road or TRAFFIC conditions. I'm sure the locals don't just go out there to PARK and smootch! :shock:
You shoud read the definition of a FREEway.
I believe we were using as a GIVEN that the trip could have been completed without the shutdown. I began my trip last Friday. I had no way of knowing that a road that has been opened SINCE then, would be shut down TODAY for a few hours.
So... you agree that it is the responsibility of the state to NOTIFY every dispatcher in the country of a temporary shutdown?
Obviously making it clear that bullsh*t reasons won't be accepted. Funny that ROAD CONSTRUCTION that temporarily results in a SHUTDOWN is not listed here.
Me: If YOU can prove that you notified MY dispatcher of it, BEFORE he dispatched me, or that he in fact KNEW about it, and/or that it was reasonable to ASSUME a shutdown on any and every of the thousands of miles of road construction going on around the country, and that this is a USUAL condition of the road and traffic here, then I'll park it. Otherwise, let me speak to your supervisor.
Drivers who are dispatched after the motor carrier has been notified or should have known of adverse driving conditions are not eligible for the two hours additional driving time provided for under §395.1(b), adverse driving conditions.
If the FMCSA wanted to mean that a dispatcher SHOULD HAVE KNOWN about it (your words - not theirs) they would have SAID so. Note that they used the single word "KNOWN."
Your are grabbing at straws! :roll:
Drivers who are dispatched after the motor carrier has been notified or should have known of adverse driving conditions are not eligible for the two hours additional driving time provided for under §395.1(b), adverse driving conditions.
Adverse driving conditions never have, nor should they ever, apply to road construction. Ask any DOT officer. :roll:
#26
03-19-2007, 10:30 AM
Make sure you look behind you while backpeddling.
Even if you didn't. Interesting......
Nope. It's pretty clear that they are referring to accidents. A highway being shut down in a construction zone is hardly unusual. The fact that it has been brought up in a hypothetical scenario proves this.
Your point?
It would follow that ANY interruption of the free flow of traffic on such a road, would be considered "unusual."
If the road construction existed before you began the trip, then you had the obligation to find out if the road would be shut down. If you fail to do what is obligated of you in 395.1, then you are not eligible for the adverse driving condition clause.
Yup. Because it isn't considered an Adverse condition, or an Emergency condition.
The regulation SPECIFICALLY SAYS "SHOULD HAVE KNOWN". THEIR WORDS - NOT MINE.
"some allowances for unforeseen contingencies..." A dispatcher SHOULD HAVE KNOWN about the collapse of both spans of I-10 following Katrina, and once before in Florida.... because it is all over the news, even though they weren't NOTIFIED of it. You cannot expect them to know about a 2 hour closure of an interstate in Godforsaken IOWA!! Likewise with the recent "weather" shutdowns of I-70 in eastern Colorado, but NOT a freak snowstorm that hits Donner pass in April!
Adverse driving conditions never have, nor should they ever, apply to road construction. Ask any DOT officer
No???? I didn't THINK so! :lol: Like I said, we may need a referee on this point. And I REALLY would like to see a definitive answer on it. However, I don't read ANYTHING in the REGS or the guidance that supports your stance. I'm quite conversant in the language, and I don't see ANY specific mention of what we are discussing. I do, however, see MANY references that seem to be inclusive of it.... and NONE that are exclusive! Just as a hypothetical, and since they specifically used this term.... What do you say constitutes an "unusual traffic condition??"
__________________
Remember... friends are few and far between. TRUCKIN' AIN'T FOR WUSSES!!! "I am willing to admit that I was wrong." The Rev.
#27
03-19-2007, 10:51 AM
Originally Posted by golfhobo
Yup. Because it isn't considered an Adverse condition, or an Emergency condition.
A dispatcher SHOULD HAVE KNOWN about the collapse of both spans of I-10 following Katrina, and once before in Florida.... because it is all over the news, even though they weren't NOTIFIED of it. You cannot expect them to know about a 2 hour closure of an interstate in Godforsaken IOWA!!
Likewise with the recent "weather" shutdowns of I-70 in eastern Colorado, but NOT a freak snowstorm that hits Donner pass in April!
Adverse driving conditions never have, nor should they ever, apply to road construction. Ask any DOT officer
Like I said, we may need a referee on this point. And I REALLY would like to see a definitive answer on it.
However, I don't read ANYTHING in the REGS or the guidance that supports your stance. I'm quite conversant in the language, and I don't see ANY specific mention of what we are discussing. I do, however, see MANY references that seem to be inclusive of it.... and NONE that are exclusive!
Just as a hypothetical, and since they specifically used this term.... What do you say constitutes an "unusual traffic condition??"
I wouldn't call any sort of rush hour traffic, construction traffic, sports related traffic an "unusual traffic condition", as they are all things that can be forseen, as they are usually announced days (if not weeks) in advance. That goes for your shutdowns due to construction. If they are shutting down the highway for 2 hours due to construction, you can believe that they announced it prior to it happening. Heck - when they shut down I-43 in Milwaukee to MOVE CONES, they announced it weeks in advance. Just because you fail to do your homework, doesn't give you a free pass to drive extra hours to make it up. Proper trip planning is the DUTY of every dispatcher and CDL holder. My personal opinion is that the best solution would be to eliminate the adverse driving conditions clause altogether. It only serves to create a more dangerous environment, as it causes drivers to be on duty for longer than they normally would have.
#28
03-19-2007, 10:53 AM
Senior Board Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: East Central IL between the corn and the beans
Posts: 4,977
I can see one case when construction could be considered an adverse condition. If they schedule a 1 hour shut down and it takes 2 for them to get the road open.
__________________
Finding the right trucking company is like finding the right person to marry. I really comes down to finding one whose BS you can put up with and who can put up wih yours.
#29
03-19-2007, 01:01 PM
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:57 pm Post subject:
golfhobo wrote:
Allready BEEN there and done THAT, too! And I never said road CONSTRUCTION was an adverse condition.... I said the total SHUTDOWN of a road under construction is UNUSUAL, and therefore qualifies as ADVERSE. "Unusual" is not a definition of "Adverse". Heck, it isn't even a synonym.
Quote:
And I even went on to point out that anytime TRAFFIC comes to a full stop, for any length of time, on a FREEWAY.... it is UNUSUAL and qualifies for the ADVERSE condition exemption. I bet you think that rush hour through Chicago qualifies for the Adverse Driving Conditions exemption. After all, traffic FREQUENTLY comes to a full stop for long periods of time. But it certainly isn't unusual (just like road closures in a construction zone aren't unusual).
Quote:
Unless of course, you or your dispatcher are psychic!! Nope - I just know how to plan a trip, so I'm not "flying blind" like you are.
__________________
Remember... friends are few and far between. TRUCKIN' AIN'T FOR WUSSES!!! "I am willing to admit that I was wrong." The Rev.
#30
03-19-2007, 01:10 PM
Originally Posted by Uturn2001
I can see one case when construction could be considered an adverse condition. If they schedule a 1 hour shut down and it takes 2 for them to get the road open.
That's like saying that if you are heading into the mountains, and they say that the storm should pass through in 3 hours, and it takes 4 hours for the storm to pass, then you can use the adverse driving conditions. You can't - because you KNEW the storm was coming (just as you knew - or should have known - that the construction delays were there). DOWN WITH THE ADVERSE DRIVING EXEMPTION! |
