[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago

Actually, I disagree with this statement. The FMCSA has done quite a good job of interpreting the rules they laid out, and MOST questions are, in fact, black and white. The problem with Dawn is that she doesn't understand the rules as they are laid out.

Rev: Are you disagreeing with ME? Or with Truckfam?

Those are NOT my words, but hers. However, Truckfam fairly sums up my point.... but my point was about how black and white DAWN was making things.

I agree that the regs, (though confusing at times and requiring much cross referencing at others,) are pretty detailed and inclusive. [except in one area which I recently had a discussion with them about]

My point was that DAWN took ONE paragraph out of the regs to say you can't drive past the ORIGINAL 14 hour mark, and failed to incorporate the paragraph or section of the regs that showed any or all possible "exceptions" to that rule.

I was not really implying that the FMCSA regs were so ambiguos.

:wink:

[Rev.Vassago]

Originally Posted by golfhobo

Rev: Are you disagreeing with ME? Or with Truckfam?

I think I am disagreeing with both of you. :wink:

Those are NOT my words, but hers. However, Truckfam fairly sums up my point.... but my point was about how black and white DAWN was making things.

That's just it - she wasn't making things black and white - she was mucking up the regulations, and making it all into gray areas.

I agree that the regs, (though confusing at times and requiring much cross referencing at others,) are pretty detailed and inclusive. [except in one area which I recently had a discussion with them about]

The fact that they are quite detailed and specific means they are, by definition, black and white.

My point was that DAWN took ONE paragraph out of the regs to say you can't drive past the ORIGINAL 14 hour mark, and failed to incorporate the paragraph or section of the regs that showed any or all possible "exceptions" to that rule.

She never even took the paragraph out of the regs, which was my point from the beginning. She used HER INTERPRETATION of the regs, which is not the OFFICIAL interpretation. The only interpretation that counts is the one that the LAW provides - in this case, the FMCSA.

[kreeper01]

Look at the Message below

[kreeper01]

I have to agree with the Rev. here, to my own personal knowledge, you can drive beyond the 14 hour rule, however, you have to take at the minimum of 8 hours in the Sleeper Berth, however, you have to take the remaining "2 Hours Off Duty", which will not extend your 14 hour clock.

Now if Dawn is a Owner Operator, she can get away with being in the berth for 8 hours and use the remaining 2 hours to drive.

Although i may get a bunch of grief over this. I have not yet seen Dawn's proof that you can legally drive beyond 14 hours. Unless you work for a lousy company that wants you to keep driving after 14 hours, i've personally worked for such companies like C.R. England, Priority, Western Express that want you to drive beyond 14 hours (you as a driver have to legally log it on line 3, states so in the safety regulations book under section 395). I'd like for someone to disprove me that in the Safety Regulations that does not state you have to log it on line 3 while being behind the wheel of a 40 ton vehicle while its moving down the highway after being on duty after 14 hours.

[Rev.Vassago]

Originally Posted by kreeper01

Now if Dawn is a Owner Operator

That's just it - she isn't an Owner Operator, a company driver, or a driver at all.

I doubt she has ever loaded a trailer, unloaded a trailer, fueled a truck, performed a pre trip inspection, performed a post trip inspection, been through a Stage 1 DOT inspection, or possibly even been in the passenger seat of a truck.

She processes logs for a trucking company (or so she claims). I question her knowledge and experience, since she refuses to reference any FMCSA regulations (to the point that she calls them "stupid"), and simply says "Trust me on this". I trust the FMCSA regulations. I don't trust her.

The first post I ever made to her was to ask her what her credentials are. She claimed to be an expert, yet provided no evidence that she was. She insulted several members of this forum, called several members names, and all the while maintained her "holier than thou" attitude, that she was some sort of expert.

Funny that she never responded to the thread where I specifically went through EACH ITEM that she was giving misinformation on. Typical of someone who has nothing to stand on.

[kreeper01]

I do have to agree, Rev.

I have not seen any proof from her stating that you can "legally drive beyond 14 hours". However, i do have proof that i had to log on line 3 due to the safety regulations stating that once behind the wheel of the truck, i have to log it as "On duty driving".

I'd like to see Dawn do some research and disprove me on this matter. I've heard so many variations on the Hours of Service by word of mouth that i am going by what is stated in the Safety Regulations book.

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago

I think I am disagreeing with both of you. :wink:

Wow! TWO bangs for your buck, eh? :wink:

That's just it - she wasn't making things black and white - she was mucking up the regulations, and making it all into gray areas.

Which was kinda MY point, as well!

The fact that they are quite detailed and specific means they are, by definition, black and white.

I prefer MY characterization of them. Please use your link www.Dictionary.com and find me the exact definition of the phrase "Black and White."

She never even took the paragraph out of the regs, which was my point from the beginning. She used HER INTERPRETATION of the regs, which is not the OFFICIAL interpretation. The only interpretation that counts is the one that the LAW provides - in this case, the FMCSA.

Okay, it wasn't out of the REGS, per se. In the SECOND post on this thread, YOU mentioned REGS. She actually posted VERBATIM the FMCSA's information (i.e. "interpretation") found in the FAQ's section as D.1 found here: (Something YOU do quite often.)

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regul...s/hos-faqs.asp

Which, since THEY are ambiguous and don't show the actual reg including all pertinent paragraphs... are IMHO somewhat cut and dried or black and white, or in other words... misleading in that they are not inclusive of the applicable exceptions. Perhaps, you should straigten THEM out, too! :lol:

[Rev.Vassago]

Originally Posted by kreeper01

I'd like to see Dawn do some research and disprove me on this matter. I've heard so many variations on the Hours of Service by word of mouth that i am going by what is stated in the Safety Regulations book.

And that's just it - the FMCSA rules are king; not a log processor's rules, not the DOT's interpretation of the FMCSA rules, but the RULES THEMSELVES. They aren't that hard to figure out when they are laid out in front of you. Anyone with a reasonable education can understand them eventually.

But when you ignore the rules, and start trying to make your own wording up from scratch (as Dawn did), then everything gets screwed up in the process.

[Rev.Vassago]

Originally Posted by golfhobo

I prefer MY characterization of them. Please use your link www.Dictionary.com and find me the exact definition of the phrase "Black and White."

I don't like the definiton that is given. "Black and white" in relation to "shades of gray" is pretty specific. Black and white, shades of gray, cut and dried, you get the point, anyway. :wink:

Okay, it wasn't out of the REGS, per se. In the SECOND post on this thread, YOU mentioned REGS. She actually posted VERBATIM the FMCSA's information (i.e. "interpretation") found in the FAQ's section as D.1 found here: (Something YOU do quite often.)

Actually, what she did was copy part of one of my posts, and called that her "regulation". I don't believe she even knows that the FMCSA website exists. She always kept referring to "her book".

[quote]Which, since THEY are ambiguous and don't show the actual reg including all pertinent paragraphs... are IMHO somewhat cut and dried or black and white, or in other words... misleading in that they are not inclusive of the applicable exceptions. Perhaps, you should straigten THEM out, too! :lol:

The interpretations that I use are linked to the actual regulations. If you look off on the right hand side of a regulation, you will see the small link that directs you to the interpretation. On the interpretation page, there is a link on the right that goes back to the regulation that the interpretation pertains to.

I've never used that FAQ page, and didn't even know it existed.

[kc0iv]

Originally Posted by Dawn

D-1. May a driver be on duty for more than 14 consecutive hours?

Yes. A driver may remain on duty for more than 14 hours; however, the driver of a property-carrying CMV cannot drive after the 14th hour after coming on duty. Also, the additional on-duty time will be counted toward the 60/70-hour on-duty limit.

golfhobo said:

I prefer MY characterization of them. Please use your link www.Dictionary.com and find me the exact definition of the phrase "Black and White."

black-and-white
–adjective
1. displaying only black and white tones; without color, as a picture or chart: a black-and-white photograph.
2. partly black and partly white; made up of separate areas or design elements of black and white: black-and-white shoes.
3. of, pertaining to, or constituting a two-valued system, as of logic or morality; absolute: To those who think in black-and-white terms, a person must be either entirely good or entirely bad.
[Origin: 1590–1600]

Look at #2 and #3

—Idioms
33. black or white, completely either one way or another, without any intermediate state.
34. black and white,
a. print or writing: I want that agreement in black and white.
b. a monochromatic picture done with black and white only.

As can be seen by idioms is how I understand the phrase black and white

I agree there is a exception to the rule. If one understands this exception applies to local driving. One who starts and end at the same location.

So yes there is an exception which DOES NOT apply to OTR driver.

There is also an exception to the 14 hour rule which involves OILFIELD OPERATIONS. Where a driver does not have to log on-duty not driving. They may extent the 14 hour rule by the amount of time waiting.

But again this is a special rule that DOES NOT apply to OTR driver.

The problem I see with the FAQ it is a very simple in nature. As the REV has shown to fully understand the rules and regulations one has to go to the rules and regulations. Even then one has to trace the complete path to fully explain a given rule.

One good exception where the 14 hour can be extended is the Adverse driving conditions which Dawn's does not cover. She said 14 hours and you are done. Which in most cases would be true. However if a driver has used the Adverse driving conditions exception and she doesn't understand this exception but only goes with her simple rule she would declare that driver in violation.

For someone who trains drivers exception must be fully understood. And I'm sorry but using a cheat sheet just doesn't work. It requires a complete understanding. It is no different than any other field.

Here's a perfect example. While working in the medical electronics field and installing a x-ray machine we had to have a local inspection. The inspector rejected or installation. When we questioned him and showed him we were correct. His response was he didn't understand that section of the rules so he didn't apply them.

Boiling it down. Dawn was wrong. Or should I say her answer was incomplete.

kc0iv