[allan5oh]

I agree with GMAN on this one, it was o/o's that let it happen. Just look at how many still work for cheap cheap companies like Swift or CR England. It's a complete lack of education. How many times have we heard of buddy leasing a 3 year old truck for ~2000 a month, for 4 years with a huge buyout?

If our fellow drivers were simply educated better. And not just about cost either. It's unfortunate that people like Kevin Rutherford make it seem like as long as you "make money" you're doing ok.

Personally I think an o/o should make 2-2.5X what a company driver makes doing the same thing. I'm talking net pay, but before taxes.

[GMAN]

An owner operator should be able to earn more than a company driver. After all, he has a significant investment in equipment. If he only earns drivers wages then he would be as well off driving a company truck. There are some owner operators who are not even making drivers wages. If you can make some profit you can survive. If you only get drivers wages you may not be able to make it, especially if you should have a major breakdown. I think we should encourage owner operators to be better negotiators and businessmen rather than just taking what is offered. If you only get fuel money then you are better off sitting or deadheading to a better area.

[heavyhaulerss]

I agree with the education. I do not take any cheap freight. I don't have to. why ? because I made smart decisions for enough years starting out, that I don't have to beg, borrow & steal to get by now. I really do not think it is the lease purchase, or leasing on to co's that have cheap freight. I think it is more, the bad financial habits of the o/o's that do them in.


I have talked to so many of them, & all were older than I. A dependable truck is never good enough. they want top notch equip. then they want to spend much more on their personal lifestyle, motorcycle, boat, vacation, e.t.c. put too much on the credit cards. I have been told the same story by so many o/o's who lost it all. they'll have a new car at home, all kinds of nice new toy's, a.t.v.'s e.t.c but have bald ties on their truck, cause they have no money to replace them.

I have been in their homes, some of them. the place will be packed from wall to wall with expensive stuff. I guess I am just the ole fashioned type. no big screen t.v. the same dinning table going on 22 years now. that's just the way I live, & the way I like it. so... I.M.O. this is where a lot of the problem lies. but what do I know? it's just my observation, by what I have encountered since I have been in trucking. it is the bad choices outside of trucking that have these folks making bad choice's in trucking, like taking cheap freight to pay for all the expensive stuff they bought.

[GMAN]

I don't think age has anything to do with it, heavyhaulerss. Over the years I have had a number of former owner operators and lease operators who have either applied or worked for me. I had one guy who was always trying to get me to buy him a 379 Peterbilt. He lost his Peterbilt, but thought that I should spend my money to buy him his toy. It seems that most of these people do have some common behavioral characteristics. None of them wanted to sacrifice and save their money to achieve their goal. They managed to get into a truck with poor or limited credit and no money. As soon as the money started to come in they put a down payment on other toys and somehow forget to save for the inevitable rainy days that will confront all of us. I don't recall any of these people who started with an older, affordable truck. All started with a new or newer truck with big payments and no plan on how to make the payments.

[heavyhaulerss]

that's it. you got it!

[Paul McGraw]

Originally Posted by LightsChromeHorsepower

Does anyone here draw any connection between the demise of the Teamsters Union in the trucking industry and the current low wages enjoyed by drivers?

Just curious.

Yes, there is a direct corelation between the two. Anyone who knows history, economics, or even better, economic history, has seen all of this before.

What is happening to truckers is very much like what happened to the grain farmers of the late 19th century. Very similar in many ways.

Rates will eventually improve, after enough wealth, lives, hopes and dreams have been destroyed. Once rates improve then the Mexicans will be brought in to drive for food and a home in the truck, then all of us will be out of trucking for good.

[RostyC]

Originally Posted by GMAN

I don't think age has anything to do with it, heavyhaulerss. Over the years I have had a number of former owner operators and lease operators who have either applied or worked for me. I had one guy who was always trying to get me to buy him a 379 Peterbilt. He lost his Peterbilt, but thought that I should spend my money to buy him his toy. It seems that most of these people do have some common behavioral characteristics. None of them wanted to sacrifice and save their money to achieve their goal. They managed to get into a truck with poor or limited credit and no money. As soon as the money started to come in they put a down payment on other toys and somehow forget to save for the inevitable rainy days that will confront all of us. I don't recall any of these people who started with an older, affordable truck. All started with a new or newer truck with big payments and no plan on how to make the payments.

I'm going to have to +1 on this. It wouldn't matter what business they're in, they'd be broke.

[GMAN]

Originally Posted by Paul McGraw

Yes, there is a direct corelation between the two. Anyone who knows history, economics, or even better, economic history, has seen all of this before.

What is happening to truckers is very much like what happened to the grain farmers of the late 19th century. Very similar in many ways.

Rates will eventually improve, after enough wealth, lives, hopes and dreams have been destroyed. Once rates improve then the Mexicans will be brought in to drive for food and a home in the truck, then all of us will be out of trucking for good.

Unions have shot themselves in the foot for years. They continue to want more pay and benefits for less productivity. That is the real reason unions are in trouble. I had an opportunity to speak with a Teamsters member who had been with UPS for more than 2 decades. He hated the union because of those it protected. He told me that they have a minimum and maximum number of stops they must make each day. According to him, there are some who will file a grievance if there is a single drop more than is the maximum, even if it is next door. Unions don't work, literally. Those who work hard and are productive don't need a union. Those who do are the ones who cannot make it in the real world where they need to demonstrate their worth. It is the non union workers of this country that has built it. If you think unions are so great then look at the auto industry. They have pretty much killed the U.S. auto industry. Their unwillingness to work with their employer has had a devastating effect. Companies usually reward those who produce. They don't want to lose those who do their jobs well. I think much of the talk about low wages in this industry have more to do with starting wages. No matter what you do for a living you don't start out at top wages. There is a learning curve. Once you learn what you are doing your pay goes up. It isn't up to the unions or government to dictate how much you should be paid. Every trucking company who has unions in control are in trouble. They cannot afford to pay workers more than they produce or what the market will bear. Having a government or company paid retirement or healthcare is NOT a right. If you are not making enough as a company driver there is nothing stopping you from either finding another profession or starting your own trucking company.

You never hear immigrants talk about how little they earn. They work hard, save their money and many start their own businesses. I have a friend who came to the U.S. with $600. Today he is a multi millionaire. He immigrated from India and is a U.S. citizen. His family has pushed him to come back to India where he could live like a king. Instead, he plans to stay in the U.S. and be a productive citizen. Over the years he employed a lot of U.S. workers. It is easy to complain. It is another to do something about it. Whatever happened to standing on your own two feet and doing your best? We are living in difficult times. Thousands are filing bankruptcy. As in any economic crisis there will be those who will benefit and become wealthy during these times.

[GMAN]

Originally Posted by RostyC

I'm going to have to +1 on this. It wouldn't matter what business they're in, they'd be broke.

There will always be those who want to take short cuts to become successful. There are no short cuts. Those who succeed sacrifice and save their money to achieve their goals. There are those who want the easy way to riches. I have known a number of people who have achieved a high level of success. None started out spending more than they earned. They may have had an old worn out car or truck and saved until they could buy something better. They had a goal. They made a plan and worked that plan to achieve their goal. I remember a young guy whom I met briefly about 30 years ago. He was a multi millionaire. It turned out he had a fleet of garbage trucks. He started with a single truck. He became successful by doing something others would not do. He picked up garbage. He also didn't start out with a new truck. When I met him he had new trucks, but that isn't the way he started his business. He also didn't have more than a high school education. I think this guy would have been successful no matter what the world threw at him. I had an opportunity to talk with a couple of his drivers. He was well thought of by his drivers.

Things don't always go our way in life. There are some people who are in love with the idea of being an owner operator. They never worry about how much money they earn. They just want to look cool in their truck. The goal is to make money. A truck is merely a tool we use to make money. It doesn't matter if it is a new or old truck, it should make money. If we start with an older truck that is in good shape we can save until we can afford to buy something newer and nicer. It doesn't matter if the truck is an old cabover or new Peterbilt 389. They guy who buys the older cabover is more likely going to be successful than the one who buys the new Pete. That doesn't mean the the guy with the cabover will never own the new Pete, but it is much more likely that he will make money and do well. The main reason is that he has his priorities in order. There is nothing wrong with having a new truck. I have spoken to several who have lost those new trucks during this depression. The guy who has been driving the older cabover will likely be able to pay cash for one of those repo's and get a good deal. He may also hire the guy with the new truck to drive his truck. I spoke with one guy the other day who bought a new Peterbilt about 4 years ago. After making payments for 4 years he lost his truck with only 1 year left on the payments. When the economy was doing well he could make the payments. When things turned bad he could not longer make those $2,000+ payments. This is the main reason why I suggest people start with an older truck. Had this guy had an older truck with cheaper payments he would likely have been able to keep it. In fact, he would probably have had the older truck paid for.

Those who have a history of failure will always blame others for their shortcomings. They will never take responsibility for their actions. We cannot control the economy or outside forces. We can control how we react to those outside forces. Of those former owner operators whom I have hired, none took responsibility for their failure. It was always someone else or outside forces that caused him to fail. It had nothing to do with decisions he made or him over extending himself. That doesn't mean that there are not legitimate reasons for some losing their trucks. There are those who become ill or have family members who are ill and they cannot work. The economy can also be a factor. But for the most part, it is how we deal with these situations that can make the difference.

[charged]

Rates are down, but if you keep costs down you can make money. My dad has been a flat bed owner operator for a year (same amount of time he has had his license) and he makes decent money. Last week he said he grossed around $5000. He is home every weekend. If he can do it I'm sure anyone can.

He owns a 2003 international with steel wheels and an older aluminum trailer. He doesn't spend much money on the road. He hardly ever washes the truck. He brings food for the week from home. He doesn't idle the truck much if at all. He doesn't use a factoring co. He's got one speeding ticket and never been fined for anything else. His trucking co. was audited last month by the FMCSA and everything came out clean.

Maybe he has been lucky, but I think he just knows what it takes to run a business. Some truckers run out and buy an expensive truck with all of the chrome they can get. Then pay to have it polished up every week. They eat out every chance they get. They buy the most expensive radio equipment on the market. They spend their earnings on a house or other toys at home w/o saving for a rainy day. Then they wonder why they can't make the bills.