[Mackman]

Originally Posted by wannabtrucker

I believe every worker deserves job protection, retirement benifits, and health care.

Amen to that.

[GMAN]

Originally Posted by wannabtrucker

everything has its downsides, but how can you explain the best paying "workers" jobs are unionized? I don't see anything wrong with companies being forced to pay fair wages to its workers.

You really thing so? Where unions are prevalent, prices for products and services are higher than in non union areas. You may earn a higher salary, but that doesn't guarantee a higher standard of living.

You see, I believe that workers should be paid a fair wage. To me, that means paying a worker what they are worth due to their efforts and value to the company. That is NOT union wages. The government has absolutely NO business telling any company what they should pay employee's. It is none of their business and the government has no clue what is involved in the free market. A business that is not competitive will not survive. Most of our governments from the local to federal level would not survive in the private sector. They haven't a clue how to manage a business or stay within a budget.

The free market works. Wages may be lower in non union states, but so is the cost of living. I worked for a company at one time at we decided if workers tried to organize that we would close the business and move to an open shop state. Unions use extortion and intimidation to get companies to agree to their terms. If you fail to improve yourself then you may not deserve a higher wage. Higher wages are given to those who have a track record of performance. Companies will pay a premium for good employees.

[Mackman]

Originally Posted by GMAN

If you are a good worker and do your job then you don't need a union. I have never understood why anyone would want to pay a bunch of thugs to do what the worker can do for themselves. I hope the Teamsters NEVER regains their power. They are a bunch of corrupt people who shake down companies and members for their own benefit. They have sold out their membership by supporting liberal candidates which many may not support individually. All a union does is protect the inefficient and non productive. For the rest of us, we can fend for ourselves. The unions are about as anti American as the current administration. They have been responsible for this country losing millions of jobs over the last 4 or 5 decades. If you want to make more money then hone your skills, get more training or save your money and start your own business. You don't need a union to stand up for you. And you usually won't get fired for doing a good job.

You don't need a union to make more money. You don't need a union to force a company to give you a retirement. It is your responsibility to manage your money so that you can invest and plan for your own retirement. These unions have been stealing union pensions for years. These union companies are all in trouble. They have agreed to fund unreasonable retirement programs that they cannot afford. Just look at Government Motors. Unless they receive major concessions from the unions they may not be around much longer. If a foreign entity comes in and takes over then you will likely NOT see a union in the company.

Yellow Freight and other union carriers are also in trouble. I spoke with a driver with Allied Systems, who was the largest car hauling company in the nation at one time. They are on the verge of going out of business because they cannot be competitive with non union carriers. When we have another downturn in the economy they may not be able to make it. If the company fails to make a profit then all workers will not only lose their jobs but may lose their retirement.

We seem to have lost the "American Spirit" in this country. Whatever happened to making it on your own? Every time we turn our livelihood or other aspects of our lives over to a union or government agency we are losing more and more of our freedoms. Our forefathers never had a union or big government standing over them to take care of them. They took care of themselves and their families. People helped their neighbors. Things have changed so much in the last 40 years. May America rest in peace.

You talk about the American Spirit. I guess the American Spirit is working 70+ hours a week for 50,000 a year if your lucky. You think everybody should work for peanuts G-Man. All you do is talk down unions (which is fine) And say how they drive company's out of business. Which is somewhat true. But not always the case. What about all the non-union trucking company's that close shop.

Remember when swift got into car hauling?? How come they didn't stay in car hauling. Cuz they were paying guys VAN wages to haul cars and it didn't work out to great for them. They didn't want to pay a good wage so they got guys that didn't know what they were doing. Cuzing alot of damage to the cars etc.

Then you say the union makes company's move overseas. Just to let you know there are alot of non-union company's that move over seas too.

Now lets talk about GM. Its all the unions fault why GM needed bail out money right? What about Ford who is also union who never took any bail-out money and are doing better then most US and Jap car company's. Most of it has to do with upper management and how they run the business. Its not the guys fault that bolts doors on a ford focus. Always blame it on the working man.

You are the typical business owner that wants all your workers to work for nothing. Thats all it boils down too.

I believe the "American Spirit" in this country should be. A hard days work for a good fare wage. A guy should be able to work somewhere for 35 years and have a nice pension to retire on to live out his golden years. He put in his fair share of work. But not no more. Them days are long gone. Now its work harder for the same or even less money.

But unions are worthless. Im happy in 2010 making 1980 wages.

[GMAN]

Originally Posted by wannabtrucker

I'm not sure what a fair wage is and I guess it would be difficult to establish with a profession like OTR truck driving. But I will tell you, it sure is more than .35/mile.

How many company drivers out there drive for $.35/mile or less? I would say a lot. In my opinion, the minimum yearly salary for an OTR truck driver should be $40k starting.

Some say, "where will the companies get the money? The price of goods and services will increase." My answer to that is, SO BE IT! That's what we call distribution of wealth, right? The reality is, to cover increase in wages, most likely companies will find it in profits, reduced management compensation, and increases in price of product.

This is union philosophy. I believe every worker deserves job protection, retirement benefits, and health care. Most will agree. The other ones are probably entrepreneur/ corporate.

I am curious as to why you think that an inexperienced driver should start at $40,000 per year? Can you name me any other job where you can or should start at $40,000 per year with NO experience? You can start at around $30-35,000. Where else can you go to earn that much money starting out with no experience and only a few weeks training? There are many college graduates who don't start out with a salary higher than $30,000 and that is after spending thousands of dollars and 4 years of their time and effort. You can become a truck driver with only a high school diploma. I don't know of any other profession where you can start at $30,000 or more your first year with only a high school diploma.

I also believe that every worker deserves a good retirement, job security and healthcare. I don't necessarily believe that it is or should be the responsibility of the employer to provide those benefits. I also think that a company deserves loyalty, honesty and a good days work for their pay. Drivers will switch companies for a penny per mile difference in pay. People used to take responsibility for themselves or their families. What ever happened to those people? Most of us who own or start businesses did so by saving our money and investing it in ourselves and our ideas. You might be surprised to know that most business owners have most of their wealth tied up in their businesses, not in the stock market.

In reality, there is NO job security, whether union or not. If unions demand too much and workers fail to perform too much then companies will either relocate or go out of business. Whether you want to admit it or not, unions have been responsible for much of the exodus of jobs outside of this country. That is not job security. Union workers seem to be envious of those who invest and start a business. They feel "entitled" to their share even though they have not contributed a penny of their own money.

Perhaps rather than complain about low wages you should look at how you can save your money and invest in your own retirement. Money needs to work for you. You cannot spend more than you make and expect a good retirement. You can do a much better job building your retirement than any employer. Unions are notorious for embezzling union pension funds.
With their track record I would not trust any of them with my pension fund.

[Kevin0915]

Originally Posted by GMAN

You see, I believe that workers should be paid a fair wage. To me, that means paying a worker what they are worth due to their efforts and value to the company.

I agree with that. That would mean some Wendy's restaurants you go into, there should/would be VERY few making $9/hr, and majority making about a buck an hour. Same with truck drivers and any other industry. There are some who just do the bare minimum they can to earn a paycheck....while there are some who bust their tail because they were raised the right way. To put in hard honest work to earn that paycheck. Not only are you rewarded with better pay, but you feel better about yourself.

[GMAN]

Originally Posted by Mackman

You talk about the American Spirit. I guess the American Spirit is working 70+ hours a week for 50,000 a year if your lucky. You think everybody should work for peanuts G-Man. All you do is talk down unions (which is fine) And say how they drive company's out of business. Which is somewhat true. But not always the case. What about all the non-union trucking company's that close shop.

When I think of companies that have gone out of business, I think of the steel industry. We have essentially lost an entire industry mostly due to unreasonable union demands. We have few foundries left in this country. About the only thing we do with steel any more is process it. And just look at the auto industry. The Japanese and Germans have come to this country, set up in non-union states and are not only building better cars but selling them for less than their U.S. counterparts.

And you talk like making $50,000 is not decent wages. I would think that most people in other jobs would consider that top wages by any stretch of the imagination. We will always have companies that go out of business for one reason or another. The economy has had a great deal to do with so many companies closing the last couple of years. The advantage that non union companies have over their union counterparts is that they can more easily survive paying lower wages in some cases. There are some companies who pay higher wages than unions.

Remember when swift got into car hauling?? How come they didn't stay in car hauling. Cuz they were paying guys VAN wages to haul cars and it didn't work out to great for them. They didn't want to pay a good wage so they got guys that didn't know what they were doing. Cuzing alot of damage to the cars etc.

Then you say the union makes company's move overseas. Just to let you know there are alot of non-union company's that move over seas too.

Swift should never have gotten into the car hauling business. They lost their shirts. I am not sure that it was low wages that caused the problem. It is a segment of trucking that requires additional skills. I am not saying that wages didn't play a part, but it may not have been the entire reason they failed in this segment. They are mostly a van carrier and should have stuck with their core business rather than deviating so far from it. Most car hauler carriers pay drivers a percentage of the line haul. There are few union car hauling carriers left. Allied was once the largest in the nation. Now they are tettering on going out of business. They simply cannot compete.

Now lets talk about GM. Its all the unions fault why GM needed bail out money right? What about Ford who is also union who never took any bail-out money and are doing better then most US and Jap car company's. Most of it has to do with upper management and how they run the business. Its not the guys fault that bolts doors on a ford focus. Always blame it on the working man.

GM has operated much like our government with several layers of management that they never needed. You are correct in that they had a management problem. Part of their problem was allowing the union to dictate so much of what they do in their business. Labor costs are certainly a major factor in their failure.

You are the typical business owner that wants all your workers to work for nothing. Thats all it boils down too.

I have NEVER wanted workers to work for nothing. Every business that I have ever owned has offered workers an opportunity to earn what they are worth. In fact, I have had a couple of former owner operators who have told me that they have made more working for me than when they owned their own truck.

I believe the "American Spirit" in this country should be. A hard days work for a good fare wage. A guy should be able to work somewhere for 35 years and have a nice pension to retire on to live out his golden years. He put in his fair share of work. But not no more. Them days are long gone. Now its work harder for the same or even less money.

But unions are worthless. Im happy in 2010 making 1980 wages.

There is little loyalty with either a company or employee. If a guy puts money back and invests wisely he can have a good retirement.

[Kevin0915]

Originally Posted by GMAN

... save your money and invest in your own retirement.

that is kinda funny. Lets ask how their retirement fund is working out for those who were told to invest in Enron? How about those who, after they lost 75% of their retirement when the market went in the tank, how their portfolio is doing....then are told to invest everything in real estate...then THAT tanks.

like george carlin said, "big business...wants more for themselves and less for everyone else. They DONT want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They dont want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. That is against their interests. They dont want people sitting around the kitchen table and figure out how bad they're getting F-ed by a system that threw them overboard 30 f-kin years ago...they want obident workers. People who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork, and just dumb enough to passivly accept all these increasingly $#!ttier jobs, longer hours, lower pay, reduced bennifits, the end of overtime and the vanishing pension that disappears the moment you go to collect it. And now they're coming for your Social Security money, they want it back...so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street. And they'll get it...sooner or later they'll get it all. cause they own this place.....its a big club.......and you aint in it. Thats what the owners count on...the fact that americans will probably remain willfully ignorant....because the owners of this country know the truth. Its called "the american dream"...because you have to be asleep to believe it."

[repete]

[QUOTE=Kevin0915;484119]that is kinda funny. Lets ask how their retirement fund is working out for those who were told to invest in Enron? How about those who, after they lost 75% of their retirement when the market went in the tank, how their portfolio is doing....then are told to invest everything in real estate...then THAT tanks.


Enron was just plain fraud and that could and I believe did happen to some UNION employees

loosing 75% of your savings? some one was in a lot of high risk high yield funds, that's part of the risk, if you can't take it they should have been in some thing safer!

Real estate? I know plenty of people that have invested in it and still for the most part are turning a profit(rentals) you make money in real estate on the front end NOT when selling it! In other words don't ever count on the value going up only buy it if it's a deal. I own three property's and got deals on all three, live in one, rent and make money on one and have a cabin one the third.

Not to bad for a high school drop out non-union truck driver with a GED !

[wannabtrucker]

Originally Posted by GMAN

I am curious as to why you think that an inexperienced driver should start at $40,000 per year? Can you name me any other job where you can or should start at $40,000 per year with NO experience? You can start at around $30-35,000. Where else can you go to earn that much money starting out with no experience and only a few weeks training? There are many college graduates who don't start out with a salary higher than $30,000 and that is after spending thousands of dollars and 4 years of their time and effort. You can become a truck driver with only a high school diploma. I don't know of any other profession where you can start at $30,000 or more your first year with only a high school diploma.

.

It's about resposnibility and sacrifice. Think about what those two words mean when describing the profession of a truck driver.

[GMAN]

I understand that a truck driver makes a sacrifice being on the road. At least some do. Others really enjoy the lifestyle. There is a lot of responsibility running a truck. If it were not for that responsibility or sacrifice then drivers would likely still be paid $0.10/mile as they were when I first started driving.

No employee, regardless of profession is deserving of top wages starting out. They need to prove their worth. We used to expect to prove ourselves before asking for or receiving a raise. Today, many expect to be paid top wages before lifting a finger. I will go back to what I said earlier. What other profession can you enter and start at over $30,000/year with NO experience and little education or training? Top drivers are still rewarded for their efforts. Those who do their jobs and keep their noses clean can pretty much write their own ticket in this business. There are still some segments of this industry where a company driver can still make $75,000-120,000 or more per year. They won't start out making that much money, but the potential is there with the right attitude and proper dedication and training. I would say the average driver today makes somewhere between $40-55,000/year. That is not a bad wage no matter what you do for a living. Whine all you want, but you will never earn that much money working for a fast food restaurant unless you move into management. And if you do move in that direction, it will likely take several years and a formal education to get you there. In this business all you need is a few weeks formal training and you can start earning a living. After a year or two in the business you can be earning in excess of $40,000 per year with most carriers. Show me another profession you can enter where you can earn that much money with only a few weeks training and a couple of years experience? I am very thankful for my livelihood. I am thankful that I can go out and earn a decent living doing something that I enjoy. I don't whine about not making enough money (well, most of the time). For the most part it isn't about not making enough money but spending too much of what you earn.