[yoopr]

Not debateable at all-Study was made proving what he said. Too tired to get if for you right now though.

[Kintama]

Might as well change the thread title to "Fox news says..." :roll:

It's MSN also. I'm just trying to help you out because, maybe those WMD got into your system and clouded things up.

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by yoopr

Plus the fact that the only people saying there is a "Civil War" is the MSM.
IF you knew anything about Iraq you'd know that if ANYTHING would have caused "Civil War" it was the Bombing of the Mosque in Sammarha.

.....the MSM is sitting on their Balconies at either the Palace in Baghdad or Camp Victory and only reporting Hearsay reports from "Outside the Wire"

Actually the bombing of the mosque WAS about the time most experts began admitting we were "stuck" in the middle of a Civil War in Iraq.

For SOME reason YOU think that only MSM pundits are speaking out on this. Here is part of a report from March '05, where those speaking are NOT from the media. Since this report, MANY more have spoken out from Generals to Ambassadors and others.

"It's just political rhetoric to say we are not in a civil war. We've been in a civil war for a long time," said Pat Lang, the former top Middle East intelligence official at the Pentagon.

Other experts said Iraq is on the verge of a full-scale civil war with civilians on both sides being slaughtered. Incidents in the past two weeks south of Baghdad, with apparently retaliatory killings of Sunni and Shia civilians, point in that direction, they say.

Also of concern were media accounts that hard-line Shia militia members are being deployed to police hard-line Sunni communities such as Ramadi, east of Baghdad, which specialists on Iraq said was a recipe for disaster.

"I think we are really on the edge" of all-out civil war, said Noah Feldman, a New York University law professor who worked for the U.S. coalition in Iraq.

He said the insurgency has been "getting stronger every passing day. When the violence recedes, it is a sign that they are regrouping." While there is a chance the current flare of violence is the insurgency's last gasp, he said, "I have not seen any coherent evidence that we are winning against the insurgency." [this was over a year ago!]

"Everything we thought we knew about the insurgency obviously is flawed," said Judith Kipper of the Council on Foreign Relations. "It was quiet for a little while, and here it is back full force all over the country, and that is very dark news."

The increased violence coincides with the approval of a new, democratic government two weeks ago. But instead of bringing the country together, the new government seems to have further alienated even moderate Sunnis who believe they have only token representation.

"That is a joke," said Sunni politician Saad Jabouri, until recently governor of Diyala Province, in an interview here. "The only people they allowed in the government are ones who think like them," he said of the majority Shia faction, who mostly come from Islamic parties.

Military and civilian experts said the insurgency seemed designed to outlast the patience of the American and Iraqi peoples.

"I just think this Sunni thing is going to be pretty hard," said Phebe Marr, a leading U.S. Iraq expert reached in the protected Green Zone in Baghdad. "The American public has to get its expectations down to something reasonable."

Lang said there is new evidence that Saddam Hussein's regime carefully prepared in advance for the insurgency, with former Iraqi officers at the core of each group. They are well coordinated and have consistently adjusted their strategy, he said.

Now the 140,000-plus U.S. troops in the country are mainly "a nuisance" factor in the insurgents' overall goal of preventing the new government from consolidating.

"They understand what the deal is here," Lang said, "to start applying maximum pressure to the economy and the government and make sure it will not work." Their roadside bombs are intended to keep U.S. forces inside their bases, he said.

All the while the insurgents are gaining strength, he said. "The longer they keep going on the better they will get," said Lang, a student of military history. "The best school of war is war."

The Sunni insurgents could win the battle if they persevere long enough to sour U.S. voters, Feldman said.

He said, "There is no evidence whatsoever that they cannot win."

[TwinPack]

Kintama

What he meant by "MSM" was main-stream media, not MSN, as in MSNBC. In your world it probably depends on what "is, is"

[yoopr]

Originally Posted by Kintama

Might as well change the thread title to "Fox news says..." :roll:

It's MSN also. I'm just trying to help you out because, maybe those WMD got into your system and clouded things up.

Watch the Lip
Some of us on here were in Iraq and actually know what's going on without having to read or watch the News.

[TwinPack]

Thank you for your service yoopr

[yoopr]

no thanks needed but thanks
Just tired of people who have no clue on what's going on over there except what they read or Hear on the News and it all becomes political Bush Lied-People Died-we're there for the OIL-etc etc
Saddam killed between 500,000 to a Million or more and these "Can't we just get along" Crowd would just like for that to continue.
I suggest that these people, IF they're open Minded to read George Sada's(Sp) book. He was Saddam's Air Force General. He reported What happened and what is currently happening in Iraq much better than Me.

You can Thank WildK and a few others on here for being there. Ranger was over there but he seems to have disappeared from here.

"MANY more have spoken out from Generals to Ambassadors and others. "

Concerning the Admirals and Generals you CLAIM to have been in the Military and IF you were you'd know that there are a Few THOUSAND Retired Admirals and Generals and the FEW who have disagreed are a Very TINY Minority.

[Useless]

Sorry, Double Post!!

[Useless]

Yooper,

Please understand that I don't doubt your word in reading of your experiences in Iraq. The problem that I have with what you are saying is that I know too many enlisted soldiers and commissioned officers who have returned from Iraq, and they are telling me a very different story. Some of them are Republicans, and some are Democrats. A few people that I've talked to have worked over there as civillian contractors. So, it's not the MSM that I am relying upon for information here.

No, I have not been there myself, but living in a part of the state where there is such a heavy military presence, and hearing the stories and analysis that is coming from such a wide spectrum of military people who have just recently returned from there, I find it difficult to discount what they are saying.

If everything in Iraq was going so well, then I think that it would be possible to identify a point where we could declare a victory and extricate ourselves. Yet, there are just too many waring factions who are fighting for power, and the one thing that they share is a hatred for The U.S. There can be no disputing the fact that these factions are becoming increasingly powerful, and for the life of me, I just don't see any chance for the U.S. to bring stability to this troubled corner of the Earth.

We are trying to implement democracy in a part of the world that has never known anything but oppression and vengeance. While the idea of democracy and freedom is certainly noble, democracy can only exist and survive where there are people willing to respect those with dissenting views, accept the will of the majority without infringing upon the rights of the minority, embrace civil discourse, and accept compromise.

The fact is that we are dealing with an oppressive culture and a religion that thrives off of hatred, death, and destruction; a culture and a religion that considers words like "freedom" and "compromise" to be the roots of evil. It is a religion that is consumed with killing or dying in the name of Allah.

The United States is not going to change that, unless we are willing to totally obliterate that part of the world. While the soldiers serving over in Iraq have for the most part served with dignity and honor, there can be no denying the corruption of the financial elite serving their own interests in Iraq, nor can it be denied that they've scammed the American taxpayer out of billions, while Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the Republican party as a whole turn with a wink and a blind eye.

Does this mean that the Democrats should be considered any more trust worthy?? Go back and revisit Vietnam, the tawdry spectacles of The Clinton Administration, (BTW, I'm not talking about his "intern affair"; the scandal with Monica Lewinsky was but a tiny drop of water in terms of the wrongdoing that took place under his leadership!!) think about the chicanery that led to the purging of the Democrats not only from Washington D.C., but also from the Governor"s Mansions, and the Legislative Halls in so many state back in 1994, and I think that it becomes abundantly clear that they can not!!

Personally, I think that the Republicans deserve to be turned out of office; yet, I hold no illusions that when the Democrats regain the reins of power, (as I believe they will!!) that they will return as a reformed party who has learned from their mistakes of the past. These elections will not be so much a victory for the Democrats as it will be a repudiation of the Republicans. After all the ballots are counted, all that will happen is that we will have switched from one political toxin to another.

Now for those who are talking about Democrats trying to "change the subject", I think that most of us have made it clear on where we think that Kerry stands. I think that I've made myself clear in stating my belief that he is drowning in his own verbal raw sewage. Hopefully, he has ended his political career.

That does not mean that there are not other matters that pertain to his remarks (insults would be a better word!!) that are not equally worthy of discussion. I don't think that this thread has been hijacked, I think that it has just evolved.

One more thing, Yooper, I do consider myself to be open minded, and I'm about to go by Border's or Barnes and Noble to buy a copy of the book you mentioned, and read it while I grab some lunch. Sounds like a good read, thanks for the recommend!![/quote]

[Cripplecreek]

It's hard to believe some folks still support this war. Bush and his cronies are smart enuff to realize that oil is not necessarily where the money is but reconstruction, after all isn't that how Bin ladins daddy got rich? And it doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize what's going on, i.e., if we blow it up it will have to be rebuilt. Meanwhile do you realize how many gallons of petroleum based products are required to kepp a war machine going, Prescott bush ought to know cause he was sellin oil to germany in WW2. So here is a simple plan, create panic,i.e. terrorism, go after a country, bomb it, rebuild it and let the AMERICAN TAXPAYER, pay for it so the future Bushs will have to never worry about where thier meal is comin from

Here's another clue for ya, USA 200 years old, Iraq, particullarly Bagdad 4000 years old. Aint never gonna work, those folks have pride and traditions also. They don't want a Wal-Mart and a CVS and a titty bar,and a bank right around the corner, and I don't blame them.