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  #101  
Old 11-07-2006, 03:17 PM
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Could you clarify your statement that the US sponsored and then executed a plan to create Israel. You may be refering to the same thing I am thinking but with different terminology.
Again I was expressing the problem through the eyes of the Arab street. The United States with its foreign policy of meddling into Arab affairs is the cause of all these problems. Other countries are somehow left off the table ...

Your post reflects pretty much the situation at the time. Your history class might have left out ...

I think in looking at this from a higher view.

1. WWI Brought French and British influence back into the Middle East not seen since the 11 Century.

2. Harsh economic penalties in Germany set up a multiple class system of "really haves" and "really have -nots" Many famous Jewish people including the famous Rothschild's were untouched by these penalties. It became easy for a madman to point out the differences and create a racial based class envy. It should be noted that the Catholic / Jewish "problem" existed many centuries before and the Inquisition was still fresh in the minds of people. Thus Europe has been facing the "Jewish Issue" for quite sometime.

Well the horrors of WWII happened. Not only in Germany but in many parts of the world Jewish people were persecuted and executed. This created huge political fall-outs and pressures. A push for the Jewish people Though many in the US saw the problems with such a solution, A solution to centuries of conflict had to be resolved and now (1948) seem like the best time. It should be noted that the US had blood on its hands -a story seen in the movie "Voyage of the Damn". This incident provided the political pressure that the US must do the right thing.

The United States and Great Britain came to a compromise of sectioning off a portion of Palestine to create the country of Israel. Jewish people from all over the world would be free to migrate to this new country. The only problem with this solution is that the land had people that disagreed with the plan living on it. Much like the Indian wars of the US where one group of people believes they own the land and an other people deems themselves entitled to that land ... well they would have to be moved. Thus a conflict .. the war of 1948 -- and a series of wars thereafter.

A sort of irony is that Hitler in 1938 instituted a plan to migrate all European Jews to Palestine. In exchange for all your belongings besides the clothes on your back you would be transported to Palestine. That plan was not seen as fair by a lot of people, but much less fair plans lay ahead. The beginning of WWII cut off the ability to move people wholesale to Palestine since Germany was now at war with France/Britain who laid claim to the lands.

Here are a couple of more facts. This is really really key to the current discussion. The Soviet Union saw the Israel / Arab conflict as a huge opportunity to engage the free world in a LIC. They sold arms, intelligence, and provided political cover. Thus a solution was very hard to arrive at with super powers fighting each other trying to keep the conflict going because of the cold war.

(Some of this is still going on today :wink: )

Probably the biggest influence the USSR provided was in 1973 where the US just retreated from Vietnam. The USSR calculated that since the US just got themselves out of Vietnam they would not have the political will to support Israel. Thus they encouraged Egypt and Syria to attack Israel in a MIC. Well ..this almost resulted in WWIII and the UN convinced the sides to make peace.

So ...

The Arab view of this conflict is very very important to understanding how this can be resolved and the intensity in which it is fought. I am not sure we can talk this out since our view and thier view of reality is so far apart.

This is the recepie so well put in Clauswitz On War.

Iran is not an Arab state but they are Islamamic. So ... the conflict now has a new dimension of exapnding the issue to including people from all over the world. North Korea sees this as an opportunity and has calculated the US is too weak to respond .. and .... I hope to God these calculations do not force the US to split atoms.

BTW) Back on the topic of this thread. Kerry exclaimed that if I did not study hard I would end up in Iraq. I did 10 years in the Army. I am very proud of my service. I Possess a BS and a MS degree. I am not an Ivy league scholar but I feel I am not below the 50% percentile either ... :wink:
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  #102  
Old 11-07-2006, 04:22 PM
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CA...first of all....thankyou for your service to our country. It is thru the efforts of you and all men & women who have served (and paid the ultimate sacrifice) that we can have this discussion in the first place. There are so many places in the world (including the topic of discussion) where your life is in jeopardy simply for bringing up the subject.

An interesting book to read..."The Haj" by Leon Uris. I read it years ago so the details are foggy but it is the story of a Palastinian village leader (elder?) and it takes place during the 1940's in Palastine when Israel was being created. A good read to ease those long miles you are putting under your belt... 8)
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  #103  
Old 11-07-2006, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Crackaces
Quote:
Could you clarify your statement that the US sponsored and then executed a plan to create Israel. You may be referring to the same thing I am thinking but with different terminology.
Again I was expressing the problem through the eyes of the Arab street. The United States with its foreign policy of meddling into Arab affairs is the cause of all these problems. Other countries are somehow left off the table ...

Your post reflects pretty much the situation at the time. Your history class might have left out ...

I think in looking at this from a higher view.......
Ok, it does appear that we are on the same page and same level view but only using different terminology. I think where I was more thorough in my explanation and history you were cutting to the basic facts as seen through the average Arab on the street.

Reason I ask you to clarify is that to many it is easy to see the US as not only the benefactor of Israel but it's sole and outright creator and reason for existence. This one erroneous fact alone can cause people to have an incorrect view of the situation and a desire to blame the US for the problems in the Mid-East (for our support of Israel).

If anyone even wants to try and fix the problem going forward they must take the time to understand the history that got us to the point we are at for example.....

While the US is a major supporter of Israel it was a United Nations resolution that actually created Israel. Most people want a "two state solution" to the problem but what most don't know is that the 1948 UN resolution established "two states." It was only after the entire Arab world attacked Israel the day after its creation did the Palestinian state with its 1948 borders cease.

The push in 1948 by the UN to create Israel was more from pressure within the former colonial powers (Great Brittan, France, etc) who had taken possession of these areas in the Mid East in WWI from the Ottoman Empire. They were weak from WWII and wanted out of the area. They were also under great pressure from the Jewish lobby to repay the Jews for all wrongs...real or perceived.

Instead of taking time to work with all parties for a good solution....the UN mandated borders for the new states and passed the resolution even though the Palestinians left negotiations because they were unhappy with the plan. The European powers, in a hurry to leave the area, jammed the resolution forward anyway making sure to start the wars and conflicts to come.

You covered a lot I had back in class except for the part about Hitler considering a repatriation to Palestine for all Jews. I do not recall that fact and further Hitler was strongly allied with the Muslim leaders in the area....mainly because of their shared hatred for the Jewish people. It seems highly unlikely that Hitler would have seriously considered this option except as another way to exterminate the Jews. Instead of concentration camps in Europe he could ship them off to the Mid-East and let the radical Muslims do it. Strange that as far back as WWII the seeds of radical Islam were sprouting. If we had only known then what we know now.....

In short there is no easy answer today because a lot of people screwed up in the past. And now there is no way to play King Solomon and "split the baby in half." No matter what happens no one will be happy until they get all of what they want. You wont get that till one side kills all of the other.

Going back on topic...thank you for your service to our country. People can try to explain it anyway they want but most logical thinkers will tell you that Kerry's comments were a Freudian slip. Looking back into his history it is clear what his opinions are in a slip of the tongue...well...he stuck his foot in his mouth.
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  #104  
Old 11-08-2006, 01:16 PM
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From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...e_of_Palestine

Quote:

In 1936-1939 the mandate experienced an upsurge in militant Arab nationalism that became also known as "the Great Uprising." The revolt was triggered by increased Jewish immigration, primarily Jews that were ejected by the Nazi regime in Germany as well as rising anti-Semitism throughout Europe.
You can read more about this in lots of different places including The History Channel. Hitler was hell bent on exporting his problem before the actual start of the conflict. Then once he was at war -- the Concentration Camps, and the final solution.

Hitler's exportation of Jewish people was a great start to the unification Arab world since the Crusades.
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  #105  
Old 11-08-2006, 06:11 PM
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The root of this problem is that the developed world (US, EU, Japan, etc) get 75%+ of our transportation energy from these yahoos.

The whole middle east is a dysfunctional mess. As PJ O'Rourke said "Its a family feud with borders" As long as they have an ATM machine spitting out money on their front porch it will continue.

Much of Africa is just as dysfunctional in terms of government turnover, lots of feuding ethic groups inside a "nation" created by colonial fiat, etc. But for the most part they don't have oil so the world largely ignores them except when it rises to a Holocaust level of Genocide as in Darfur or Rwanda.

Energy Independence is the key the extracting ourselves from the mess we have gotten stuck in.

With the 1/2 TRILLION+ that what we have poured down the rat hole to date we could have given a shiny new Prius to 20M households or build a 100 brand new nuclear power stations at $5B ea. to make hydrogen for internal combustion.

Once we have something close to energy Independence the sorry mess that is the middle east becomes buried in page 3 of the paper versus holding the world economy hostage and tying down 1/2 to 2/3 of our military.

This is why I gladly pay $3.50/gal for locally produced Biodiesel for my POV.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
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  #106  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackaces
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...e_of_Palestine

Quote:

In 1936-1939 the mandate experienced an upsurge in militant Arab nationalism that became also known as "the Great Uprising." The revolt was triggered by increased Jewish immigration, primarily Jews that were ejected by the Nazi regime in Germany as well as rising anti-Semitism throughout Europe.
You can read more about this in lots of different places including The History Channel. Hitler was hell bent on exporting his problem before the actual start of the conflict. Then once he was at war -- the Concentration Camps, and the final solution.

Hitler's exportation of Jewish people was a great start to the unification Arab world since the Crusades.
Thanks Crackaces,

This is good reading......

"The Holocaust had a major effect on the situation in Palestine. During the war, the British forbade entry into Palestine of European Jews escaping Nazi persecution, placing them in detention camps or deporting them to places such as Mauritius. Avraham Stern, the leader of the Jewish Lehi underground group, whose will to fight the British was so strong he offered to fight on the Nazi side, and other Zionists, tried to convince the Nazis to continue seeing emigration from Europe as the "solution" for their "Jewish problem", but the Nazis gradually abandoned this idea in favor of containment and physical extermination."

.....and should be required study for anyone thinking they have the quick answer to the "mid-east problem." Anyone who took time to study the history would quickly realize the confused and convoluted policies by all sides that have led us to where we are today.

I will have to read on it further. Just taking the above passage on face value would seem to indicate it was not necessarily the war that stopped Hitler's forced immigration but instead a personal preference to the concentration camp solution. From the reading itself it could be Hitler's sick mind at work, an offer to stop more Jews from entering the area to appease Arab elements he wanted as allies, the war itself, or any combination of these and other things.
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