[robertt]

Originally Posted by MichiganDriver

Well Robert, thanks for helping me put a sharper point on it.

Anytime. LOL!

I would hate to be living my life continually thinking "the man" is out to get me, when in all actuallity it is only one man, one single man, the man at the top, obama, who has caused this way of thinking and divisiveness and hired people who thinks like he does to get the word out also for him. The sooner he and his little foot soldiers are gone the better for ALL of us.

[GMAN]

Originally Posted by MichiganDriver

The problem is that our economy has become a banana republic economy. It isn't healthy for the gap between the rich and the rest of us to be as great as it is. Noone (at least not me) begrudges them (hehe most of them) their money. Without a thriving middle class, we can't have a robust economy. You and Robert can list as many anecdotal stories about charity that you want and it doesn't matter. There are 300 million of us! 297 million of us can't be charity cases.

What if the Reagan Revolution is only half over? What if the rich are only half done gutting the middle class? The buck a mile backhaul will be a fond memory.

There are a lot of self made millionaires in this country. Some started life very disadvantaged. I agree that the middle class seems to be getting smaller. I don't know that you should blame the rich. When some look at those with wealth they somehow assume that they don't work or didn't work for what they have accumulated. You don't achieve a high level of success working 9-5 or sitting on your backside. If you want to place blame you need to look at a government that is out of control with spending. You can also throw in the inflexible unions. Another is the EPA with their ridiculous, nonsensical environmental attacks. And one more is over taxation. These are the primary reasons why our industry has abandoned the American worker. And let's not forget the American consumer who demands cheaper and cheaper products rather than quality.

Back in the third quarter of the last century there was not a country or worker anywhere in the world that could compete with the American worker in quality or productivity. Today, there are too many who would rather sit back and get a government check than work and earn their own way. Rather than earning their way to success they would rather attack the most successful and push the government to take from the successful and give to the lazy and unproductive. I remember a time when people worked hard and made their own way without government intervention. If people needed more money then they got another job and sometimes two extra jobs in order to get ahead. They worked their way through trade school or college in an effort to advance themselves. Americans spend too much money on things that don't matter. Luxuries are now called necessities. We use a credit card rather than paying cash because we don't want to wait until we can afford to buy what we want.

Let's not blame the rich for the diminishing middle class. All of us pay way too much in taxes. Apathy is rampant. Everyone has financial difficulties whether they are rich or poor. It isn't up to the government to save us. America is still a land of opportunity. We make our own success in life. We attain success by doing not blaming.

[MichiganDriver]

Originally Posted by GMAN

There are a lot of self made millionaires in this country. Some started life very disadvantaged. I agree that the middle class seems to be getting smaller. I don't know that you should blame the rich. When some look at those with wealth they somehow assume that they don't work or didn't work for what they have accumulated. You don't achieve a high level of success working 9-5 or sitting on your backside. If you want to place blame you need to look at a government that is out of control with spending. You can also throw in the inflexible unions. Another is the EPA with their ridiculous, nonsensical environmental attacks. And one more is over taxation. These are the primary reasons why our industry has abandoned the American worker. And let's not forget the American consumer who demands cheaper and cheaper products rather than quality.

Back in the third quarter of the last century there was not a country or worker anywhere in the world that could compete with the American worker in quality or productivity. Today, there are too many who would rather sit back and get a government check than work and earn their own way. Rather than earning their way to success they would rather attack the most successful and push the government to take from the successful and give to the lazy and unproductive. I remember a time when people worked hard and made their own way without government intervention. If people needed more money then they got another job and sometimes two extra jobs in order to get ahead. They worked their way through trade school or college in an effort to advance themselves. Americans spend too much money on things that don't matter. Luxuries are now called necessities. We use a credit card rather than paying cash because we don't want to wait until we can afford to buy what we want.

Let's not blame the rich for the diminishing middle class. All of us pay way too much in taxes. Apathy is rampant. Everyone has financial difficulties whether they are rich or poor. It isn't up to the government to save us. America is still a land of opportunity. We make our own success in life. We attain success by doing not blaming.

We're closer to agreement than I think you realize. The problems began with Reagan. You apparently think that suddenly poor and middle class people lost their willingness to work. I on the other hand attribute almost everything to the land of make believe that Reaganomics introduced. The idea that the government can take in less money and have more money is bizarre. Throw some deregulation into the mix and suddenly everyone seemed to be cashing in. They called the 1980s the Me Decade. GREED IS GOOD. lol All of a sudden the genie was out of the bottle and it was every man for himself.

We now have a situation where the rich are paying the lowest taxes in modern history and they're being promised even more land of make believe tax cuts. Btw, have I ever said that there aren't rich people who got rich through hard work? No. What I have against the current crop of rich people is the ill gotten gains they've enjoyed through buying political clout.

[GMAN]

Originally Posted by MichiganDriver

We're closer to agreement than I think you realize. The problems began with Reagan. You apparently think that suddenly poor and middle class people lost their willingness to work. I on the other hand attribute almost everything to the land of make believe that Reaganomics introduced. The idea that the government can take in less money and have more money is bizarre. Throw some deregulation into the mix and suddenly everyone seemed to be cashing in. They called the 1980s the Me Decade. GREED IS GOOD. lol All of a sudden the genie was out of the bottle and it was every man for himself.

We now have a situation where the rich are paying the lowest taxes in modern history and they're being promised even more land of make believe tax cuts. Btw, have I ever said that there aren't rich people who got rich through hard work? No. What I have against the current crop of rich people is the ill gotten gains they've enjoyed through buying political clout.

What we are seeing today with the work ethic didn't begin with Reagan. You could trace it back to LBJ who was president in the early 1960's. He started his "New Deal" program which was the largest expansion of welfare in our history (at the time). His program built public housing and encouraged millions to get on the public dole rather than working. The result was several generations of enslaved citizens who rely totally on the government for their survival rather than relying on themselves. It was successful in creating a class of citizens who are caught up in the government welfare cycle. It was a failure in bringing people out of poverty. It took the incentive out of working and taking responsibility for one's self and family. LBJ's program continues to expand with the years.

This country has survived and prospered not by giving people a free ride, but providing an environment where they would bring themselves out of poverty by their own initiative and the sweat of their brow. It isn't the rich that are destroying the middle class. It is this ever expanding, dependentant class of people and the bloating government that requires more and more taxes in which to survive. Most of the taxes we pay didn't exist in the 1960's. We don't always notice some of them. The government has gotten rather creative in calling them fees rather than taxes, but whatever you call them they are still taxes. The more we pay in taxes the less we have for ourselves and our families.

Until recent years we didn't envy the rich. Becoming wealthy was something we could strive to achieve rather than envying those who did achieve riches. It is just another way those in power are using to control the people of this nation. I agree that greed is widespread in our society. And it isn't just the wealthy. You will find it in all segments of our society. Were it not for greed there would not be the move to steal from the rich to give to the lazy and unproductive. Until recent years I don't recall people complaining so much about what others have. We used to get another job if we didn't earn enough money. Now, we want the government to send us a check. One of the greatest enemies to our freedom and way of life is welfare. I would like to see an end to welfare in this country. If not eliminated, we need to greatly limit the length of time anyone can be on welfare. If people have no safety net they will find a way to earn a living. They will work if they want to eat. And that is Biblical. The Bible states that a man shall not eat if he doesn't work.

[golfhobo]

That opening post was a GOOD one, robertt! Thank you for that. It is good to see how Americans help each other out when needed. And I didn't hear a single reference to political party... nor any slams against Obama. Truly, one of your best posts ever.

Oklahoma has been hit HARD in recent years by forces of nature (the drought, tornadoes, AND earthquakes.) I believe you are RIGHTLY "proud" of how your fellow statesmen have responded. There is a true generosity among "RED State" Americans and I appreciate that.

But... there is also an INNOCENSE about them that marks them as a "rube" when they find themselves confronted with the real life situations in URBAN America... a place you don't seem to understand... and prefer to denigrate as a "mosh pit" of Liberal "immoralism."

Perhaps, you're not as "well traveled" as you (rightfully) claim to be. Nevertheless... that's for another post/thread.

I say BRAVO to you, and all other red-blooded Americans (and Indians) in the "non polically important" state of Oklahoma!

I wish LIFE was that good for ALL Americans.

[repete]

Originally Posted by MichiganDriver

First of all, I wasn't talking about regular folk like you or I might know. I was talking about the 1%ers. Starting with the "Me Decade" (the 1980s), they seem to be getting more and more greedy. There are exceptions, like Warren Buffett and Bill Gates to name two out of probably thousands, but by and large it's my opinion that today they are more interested in hoarding their loot than doing good things with it. And I suppose I was referring to a certain 1%er that hides his money in foreign bank accounts and seems to think that showing his tax returns would cause us to think less of him. I'm sure I wouldn't think less of him.


.

We had (in Rochester NY) rich 1%er your talking about except he DID build his company himself and he GAVE a lot matter of fact we have a local childrens hospital here thanks to him and so does Syracuse. So how did NYS thank the man? Raise his taxes and the cost of doing bisiness so he moved out of state!
We have other local 1%ers and they all seem to give thier thier share (what that amount is)
I hope the rich never do pay there "fair share" cuz if the do we will have to pay the differance!

[repete]

Originally Posted by MichiganDriver

We now have a situation where the rich are paying the lowest taxes in modern history and they're being promised even more land of make believe tax cuts.

That's not really true, The percentage of income they pay may be down but so are the deductions they can claim.
Besides, how can you explain the the top (say) 10% of income earners paying the vast majority of tax dollars? I think EVERYONE needs to have some "skin in the game" and the gvmt needs to be more responsible spending OUR MONEY!

[robertt]

Originally Posted by golfhobo

Perhaps, you're not as "well traveled" as you (rightfully) claim to be.

"Claim to be"? WHY would you say that? Whether you throw the "(rightfully)" in there or not. So you think I'm lying? I'm embellishing? Your AMAZING! You can't even say something nice without throwing a little JAB....can you? I have NEVER questioned your SERVICE, where you say you have been or what you say you have done in the Military or private sector! Why would you question mine? Or insinuate that I don't know how "traveled" I am? Baiting again, aren't you? I'm going to tell you this for the Eleventeenth time. You know nothing about me! Other than what I have posted on here before.

Are you calling ME a liar? Like you are insinuating of us on the Haiti thread about your Dad? Why don't you go get some physcological help.

[Kentla93]

Originally Posted by robertt

Anytime. LOL!

I would hate to be living my life continually thinking "the man" is out to get me, when in all actuallity it is only one man, one single man, the man at the top, obama, who has caused this way of thinking and divisiveness and hired people who thinks like he does to get the word out also for him. The sooner he and his little foot soldiers are gone the better for ALL of us.

Robbert I thought you left the board for good??
Anyway this statement is good for any man/woman that holds an elected office. (the fish always stinks from the head first... it does not matter who the heads is) The problem is that both sides think they are right, both sides hold ill feelings for the other side, both sides refuse to budge and in the end both sides will fail, well in the end we the people will be the ones who are failed at the hands of our elected officials regardless of what party lines we stand on.. You right guys can stand on the values or morals of Twitt and Paul all you want but they are just as dangerous as Obama or any other person who wants this office. It is a thankless job that will never be ble to fix our countries problems as long as greed and private money are involved, that is the plain and simple fact.. It is what it is..

Timberwolf

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by robertt

"Claim to be"? WHY would you say that? Whether you throw the "(rightfully)" in there or not. So you think I'm lying? I'm embellishing? Your AMAZING! You can't even say something nice without throwing a little JAB....can you? I have NEVER questioned your SERVICE, where you say you have been or what you say you have done in the Military or private sector! Why would you question mine? Or insinuate that I don't know how "traveled" I am? Baiting again, aren't you? I'm going to tell you this for the Eleventeenth time. You know nothing about me! Other than what I have posted on here before.

Feel better now that you've had your little tantrum?

Are you calling ME a liar?

No, but YOU are the one who said, "I have been all over this World and country..." and then proceeded to "debate" MD's sigline by citing your current, LOCAL, experience. I remember a "community" atmosphere similar to the one you describe from when I lived in Northeast Texas... not far from you. But, one thing I remember most about it, is how different it was than many other places I have lived... or been. Perhaps, MD's "opinion" was based on a slightly broader perspective of the country... and the times.

As for the one line from my post that you quoted and reacted to... my bad. I forgot that I can't use complicated grammar or literary style when responding to your posts. "Rightfully" was put there to ensure that you didn't think I was questioning your "claim" while at the same time pointing out the exclusivity of your example. "Well traveled" has less to do with where one has lived or visited than it does with one's "worldview."