Southron said:

As Mr. Ford pointed out, you once AGAIN have proved my point.

First, as I have said (and proved) many times.... I am a Centrist not a "Lib." Furthermore, if you comprehended anything you read in that thread, (which I doubt,) you would see that I purposely "held my tongue" for quite some time on that thread. Initially, it was to keep from "jumping to" any conclusion such as the original poster had (which he edited his remarks about.) THEN, I held my tongue about the initial backlash against Obama and "libs" who wanted to take away gun rights. I think I first broke down and jumped in when the irony of someone's KNEE-JERK post about "knee-jerk reaction" was more than I could bear. :hellno:

My first real post (I believe) was about legal statements being made by our resident (and most recent) truckstop lawyer about the shooter's punishment. I LIKE to discuss rules, regulations, laws, etc.... and then got involved when some here started DEFENDING the militant rhetoric of certain people because FoxNews had told them it had nothing to do with the events and (of course) the "libs" had done the same thing....blah, blah, blah.

And rightfully so. Giffords herself had complained about Palin's "tactics" and portended the possible "consequences" that she (and others that day) eventually suffered. "People like ME" have had about enough of the treasonous rhetoric spouted by certain Tea Party candidates who threatened armed revolution (2nd Ammendment Remedies) if they didn't get what THEY wanted through a democratic electoral process!

I actually never even gave any THOUGHT to whether he was right or left, con or lib. I had already seen all I could see on Youtube about him, and really couldn't tell WHERE he stood other than being anti-gov't! Considering WHICH party is in power, and all the crap GMAN and other's have tried to pin on them, one COULD draw a conclusion, but I did NOT. My concern and beliefs were that SOME ignorant or unstable person(s) would ACT on the militant rhetoric being spewed against the current administration of "so-called" Socialists.

I find it amusing how quickly YOUR type jumped to the defense of Palin and others you listed. In a similar fashion to the fact that SarahPAC IMMEDIATELY "scrubbed" their website of the "targeting map," I find your actions to be a de facto admission of guilt! It's as if you KNEW you'd be blamed.... because you KNEW which "side" the militant rhetoric was coming from!

Loughner may well have been a psychotic loner, as you say. But, THESE are the people who are most likely to ACT on militant rhetoric. I find NO exculpatory evidence in that fact. And I must point out something that I find to be obvious... that he did INDEED care about politics. He was knee-deep in thoughts (if not discussions) on government MONETARY policy and mind control.

What "unconcerned" citizen have you EVER known who would have gone to a meeting/lecture or whatever by his Congressperson (Giffords) in the FIRST PLACE several years ago [and proposed a question] if he were Apolitical??? I am a polictical JUNKIE and I've NEVER been to any kind of meeting or town hall with my congressional representative! :hellno:

And you WON'T! I don't know that we will EVER know all the facts about his motives, but that doesn't change my mind or beliefs about how dangerous I find the "anti-government" rhetoric that has pervaded our media and politics since Obama was elected.

I did.... and I found a link to THIS thread, YOUR posts and a picture of YOU. :lol2:

Why would you expect to "hear from me" about something YOU saw on the internet that I didn't see? :roll: Do you have some PROOF that I SAW such videos but intentionally ignored them? How did you KNOW that those posters were "libs?"

As for the term "gringo," no.... I don't consider that particularly "racist." I'm sure you don't have the time or patience to participate in a lengthy discussion of cultural linguistics that supports MY opinion as stated, but.... GEE.... I wish you did!

Well, as a result of your further statements, now I DO know that you are partially of hispanic descent. So what? So is my daughter! Why would I think that you are white just because you are conservative? Michael Steele ring a BELL with you? For the record, there have been MANY posters here who I simply came out and clearly ASKED them if they were Black.... because I could not TELL for sure by their posts and opinions. I'm sort of color blind and "ignorant" in that regard!

However, the fact that you are Hispanic does not mean you are excluded from being racist. You got time for a discussion about Tex/Mexicans who HATE the illegal immigrants from Mexico who are crossing the border? You know.... the "mindless robots" that you envisioned were at an Obama rally chanting Si! Se puede!" ???

This would be funny if not so sad! I'm not a Liberal, but you are 180 degrees out of line on this one. It is not the LIBS who see "groups," it is the Cons who do! Libs are for INDIVIDUAL freedoms regardless of what "group" one falls into! THIS convoluted "theory" is also one that I have heard being "sold" by conservative pundits.... but, like most of their crap.... is intellectually dishonest and IGNORANT. But, I see you've been paying attention to it. :roll:

Let's see.... my ex-wife's FATHER was born in Mexico (BOTH parents were Mexican,) so that makes my daughter about as hispanic as YOU are if not MORE. So... you think "I" am racist?

Are you referring to the words I suggested? Or, the crap you posted about Carter?

Well..... we didn't exactly "give it back" since it never existed under their ownership, but..... just WHAT do YOU suggest Carter should have done?

I'm well aware of THIS "party line talking point," but.... I just can't help myself. I REALLY want to know exactly what you THINK you mean or know? Just exactly what do you think Carter did wrong or how did his "ineptitude" lead to the Iranian Revolution that deposed the Shah? As for your insinuation about the hostages, you are wrong but I'm curious.... what do you know about the "October Surprise?" Why do YOU think they were released the day Reagan was sworn in?

Wrong again. I am gone 17 hours per day, 5 days a week, and I don't have a laptop. I post some during the week when I have MAYBE 4 hours off each night, but mostly on my weekends (sun/mon.) I "critique" replies one sentence at a time because people like you post either a LIE or an ignorant point in EACH and EVERY sentence! The shorter YOUR replies, the shorter MINE can be. OR.... you could learn to not post B.S.

Luckily, you don't get to decide what I do with my free time. I don't HAVE grandkids (that I know of,) and I do THIS with my free time because THIS is the "project" that I enjoy. When I get tired of it, I'll be sure to ask YOU for permission to do something else.

 

Rut-row, there are some rumblings going on in our biggest ally in the Mid-East now. The Saudi Kingdom is having women stand up now..............for those who don't know, the women are very oppressed there just like other Mid-East countries and have zero voice. Saturday in the capital of SA a group were there to show their voice and be defiant. It may fizzle out like the Syrian uprising but it shows how uneasy any peace is over there right now with the hard-line govt's. Even the UAE, Bahrain and Kuwait are having some rumblings. The last thing the world needs is chaos like we saw in Egypt happening in Saudi Arabia, they are the world's top exporter of oil. For the US, we really don't need the do-do hitting the fan there, where do you put your allegiance? The King allows us to do a lot with our military in their country but if the will of the people wins out we need to appease them.

How about the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, threatening to leave the govt. talks on the transfer of power..............go for it, get the F out of town. We DO NOT want them getting in power, they have direct links to Al-Qaida and Iran. Maybe nothing bad will come of it, but I'd rather we not find out later on.

 

It seems that the entire Middle East is in flux. Jordan has always seemed to be fairly stable. I am surprised that they are having problems. I believe the King of Jordan is married to an American. I am not surprised about Saudi Arabia. They have had an iron hand with their people. With all the turmoil oil prices are likely to continue to rise. I do have concerns about Egypt and the type of government that might come out of the rubble. I heard a little bit of news about them today. The government sounds like they may take a more rigid stand. I don't think that would be well received. It is a balancing act with our country. Mubarak has been a good ally. We have been paying him off for many years. I believe it was during the Carter administration that they decided to pay Egypt and one or two other countries to not fight with Israel. I got the impression that our government felt that it would be cheaper to pay off these countries to keep the peace rather than participating in a war. Although I think Carter mishandled the situation in Iran, he did try to put forth peace in the Middle East. He spent a lot of time with the Palestinian and Israeli heads in an effort to push forward peace. Although I don't think he was a good president, he did his best to insure we would have peace in the Middle East.

With all those countries having unrest, I wonder if it is really being orchestrated by some group such as the Muslim Brotherhood. I would hate to see another Muslim republic put in place in the Middle East. It would be great to have another real democracy in the region.

 

Mr. Ford said:

I haven't heard much about this either. I seem to be missing alot of news lately! But, I HAVE had some really good discussions with my Muslim neighbor. I'm going to try to relate some of the things HE has been telling me.

I would be surprised to see MUCH unrest in S.A. On the ONE hand... he tells me that THEY are some of the most radical muslims in the world, real followers of Wahabiism and "death to infidels" and such. BUT.... they are ruled quite effectively by their monarchy and for ONE good reason. The kingdom of Saud is considered to be DIRECTLY decendent from the prophet Mohammed. Therefore... they are "happy" to be subservient to their king as he represents their religion as well. They dare not "object" or cross him too much.... because it is simply against their avowed religion!

Also, though there are a certain number of poor there, MOST of the country lives pretty well (especially those in business) because the oil money is distributed very evenly.

I've talked with him alot about the current uprisings in the Mid-East, and he confirms much of what I've said and believe. The people there WANT a more democratic form of government, but the fate of their rulers has much to do with how they've treated their people and to what extent the people feel that they are "dictators" propped up by America.

The BEST thing America (and Obama) can do right now is to just STAY OUT OF IT. MOST of the people there, though they practice Islam as their religion, LOVE America and our people. They just don't want to see us "supporting" another repressive regime. They truly DO want "self-determination."

They are not helpless children who cannot decide for themselves, or act on their own behalf. They just can't "fight city hall" when WE are city hall! As the student rebellion in Egypt shows, they don't really NEED our support to determine their own fate.... as long as we don't come in AGAINST them and in support of the dictatorial regimes they are tired of living under.

They can find a way to "live with" Israel in the land, though they are not real fond of them, but again.... they are tired of our support of what they see as a repressive regime in the area. We really need to reconsider the LEVEL of our support.... diplomatically as well as militarily.... for Israel. I don't mean that we should abandon them. Just make them realize that we will not support their "agressive" nature towards Arabs (muslims.)

One interesting aspect I am trying to gain more understanding from him about, is their religious experience. Though ALL Muslims practice Shariah Law in their personal lives, they seem to be able to separate it from their business lives, educational lives.... even DAILY lives.... in a fashion similar to the way many Catholics do. To some extent, those 5 prayers a day, etc.... are part of the "structure" of their religion, and they must comply. But, they are mostly concerned with economic issues, educational aspriations and quality of life.

I don't agree with this. They are a part of the Egyptian population (but only about 1/3rd.) They should have a proportional amount of representation in any "democratic" government that hopefully will prevail in the country. Only if they do NOT, will they become a problem. They are not going to be the prevaling faction in power.

Not really. I don't know about Iran that much off the top of my head right now... but, they are almost mortal enemies of Al-Quida. They renounced violent Jihadiism years ago, and as a result have become "enemies" of Bin Laden and fundamentalist Islam. In a country full of mostly "secular" Muslims, they are like our own Moral Majority. Yes.... they want to preserve the religious teachings and basics of their civilization, but they are not intent on radicalizing others, or taking over the government.

They did not START this revolution and, in fact, stayed low for 3 days or more. However, seeing a LACK of any cohesive organization to the protests, they have stepped up their involvement somewhat... but mostly just as a VOICE of opposition to the Mubarik regime. They have helped to keep order and prevent chaos.

I agree that we don't want to be surprised by them in all of this. That is one reason why I would encourage TALKS with them.... and NOT exclusion of them! That would only radicalize them as THEY would feel discriminated against, and indeed OPPOSED by American meddling.

They are a "religious" block in an otherwise SECULAR country/government. There are many Muslim governments in the area that we deal with. Why should we be afraid to deal with THEM when they are only asking to be PART of the new Egypt?

As I said before... this is NOT the same as the Islamic revolution in Iran in 1979. It is more like the failed "student" revolution AGAINST the Mullahs in Iran in recent years (only it is against a secular dictator) But, it's not about religion in Egypt. It is about corruption and oppression!

I still feel strongly that IF the people win their fight for democracy in Egypt, it COULD spread to support (or renewed motivation) for the secular revolt in Iran... one that we SHOULD have supported more strongly!

What happens in MOST of these "Muslim" countries in the Mid-East right now, will most likely lead to better relations with America. But, the most dangerous country in the region is IRAN.... and if this could change the face of THEIR politics, the world could become a much more stable place.

At any rate, unless we are prepared to bring about the apocalyptic war of armageddon that we have "feared" for so long, we really don't have much to say in this! We are not, and have never BEEN, in a WAR with Islam! The radical Jihaddists are becoming more marginalized as events change and time passes in the region. We DARE not come down on the wrong side of this event in world history.

If we want the "moderate" muslims in the world to crack down on the radicals, we MUST not be seen as supporting the regimes that they SAY we have been supporting that LED to this strife! As someone once said.... it's the ECONOMY, STUPID! These people are in a struggle for economic equality.... not religious domination.

Sometimes the BEST outcomes are those that WE don't try to manipulate. I truly believe that all of this will "shake itself out" to our mutual benefit if we just ALLOW the "self-determination" that we speak so loudly about.

Our forefathers may have WRITTEN the Declaration of Independence, but I guarantee that ALL of the educated Muslim world has READ it! Paraphrasing: Though prudence would dictate that longstanding governments should not be thrown off for petty reasons, especially while mankind is more disposed to suffer to the extent they can.... when a LONG LINE of usurpations of power and oppression conspires to defeat the will of the people, the people have a "god-given" right to throw off that government and institute NEW FORMS of government among and between the people.

WE.... the American people.... having not done SO badly in that regard... have NO right to deny, meddle or conspire to prohibit such rights to any other.

It is time we live UP to Reagan's characterization of us as a "shining city on a hill" .... to "do the things that are hard" as JFK challenged us.... and to "trust the Almighty to bring about the equality of all mankind" as Martin Luther King dreamed!

This really IS the test of the American experiment, in my mind. The vindication of our very existence. The realization of the promise of a FREE WORLD.... not through military conquest, but by the emancipation of the Human soul.

 

Mubarak says good bye. The military has taken over control of the country just like the people wanted and Mubarak has run to his Sinai Palace. There were reports that Egyptians were headed to that palace to attempt to run him from the country completely.

 

I was surprised that Mubarak didn't send in troops to shut the movement down. I think that there was too much world scrutiny and he probably didn't want to destroy his country at his age. He is 82 years old. What is most surprising is that Mubarak was brought down by peaceful protests. The next few weeks and months should give us an idea of what we can expect from the new government.

 

We Embrace and congratulate our Egyptian brothers in their successful struggle for FREEDOM!!We are all Egyptians today!

 

He couldn't and wouldn't send in the military like your hinting at GMAN. They were called to the Palace to defend the place when tens of thousands of protestors started marching on it. The military rolled in with tanks and barbed wire to keep the people back. Next thing everybody knew, the military was tossing out cookies and bread and cheering along with the protestors just like the were a week ago in Tahirir Square. Mubarak had no authority over the military anymore, they refused to do anything to the people except help them and protect them. That is why the people loved the military so much and wanted all authority handed over to them. The military has done so much for the people while Mubarak ruled and appeared to do very little to help them.

 

And today.... Libya is HALF FREE and pretty soon THAT horrendous dictator will be gone or preferably DEAD! Martyr THIS you S.O.B!

Great news indeed! I don't want this thing to get out of hand..... but, I'm glad HIS people revolted! I believe if HE can be taken on.... so can the rulers of Iran!

But, I think WE or someone we pay will have to put some boots on the ground and bring their popguns.... to finally finish this guy in Iran! The people there do NOT have our "second amendment remedies."

 

I think Israel is getting REAL close to taking Iran themselves. The only thing stopping them is Syria's close proximity. I would not be surprised to see something come of those 2 warships Iran sent thru the Canal. Iran claims they are on an aid and training mission to Syria but who's to say they didn't slip some commandos off the ships under cover of darkness as they passed by Israel? Eventually we're(Us and the rest of the world) going to have to face the facts with Iran and their nukes, either take them out or welcome them to the party. We can't continue to twiddle our thumbs and ask them to stop, that's obviously not working. They keep kicking international inspectors out or placing them under arrest as spies, why do we continue to allow that?

How about the 2 Libyan airmen who purposely crashed their fighter jets and bailed out instead of attacking anti-Gadhafi occupied cities as they were ordered to do?

How about Saudi Arabia giving away billions of dollars in aid to the people to try and quiet them down before it gets crazy there? Or Bahrain, the protesters have already succeeded in getting the F1 race canceled, with that feather in their cap, they are going to be looking for more now.