The Apocrypha - for Slimland
#31
01-16-2008, 11:14 AM
WHY??? Is it something "I" said??? Did I make you feel that this was a burden on ME??
I personaly would like to see, someone else full of fire come in here.. I would like to sit back and watch.. And see them learn from the Smartest of beings I have ever, ever, talked too.. You guys Rock, When I wanted to debate, Y'all where there..All that is left for me to do, is Teach.. And that IMOP, needs a question to start a subject.. And Truthfully, I just don't see anyone that I have already talked to asking..and the newbies are here for Trucking..THough I think this is just as much about Trucking than putting on Snow chains.. Same with music. A spiritual balance person IMOP is just happier.. Besides I am not leaving the site, just lettin someone else take over, I have done my job. Now it is up to God to give the increase. I will still be here, there are other threads that I participate in that arn't faith based..
"inability" to commit, or decide, is what persecutes my soul!
Of course, Peter DID! I don't know for sure what I would say if asked the question. It would NOT be a matter of saving my life..... it would be an honest inability to say for sure!
Now for your Dad..
THE BIBLE AND THE APOCRYPHA
Written by: GolfHobo's father To measure anything, you must have a valid measuring stick. Without that, one person's measurement is as good as another's, and none are valid, they are only opinions. In this case, the measuring stick is the Bible, or the Holy Scriptures. By the second century A.D., the Christians called their Holy Scriptures "ta Biblia". In English we call it "The Bible". So I will refer to The Holy Scriptures as the Bible. The Old Testament is made up of 39 books. Jesus, in Luke 24:44, recognized these as Holy Scriptures referring to them as "the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the "writings" or Psalms. In the New Testament, the Old Testament is sometimes called the "Law and the Prophets" (Matthew 5:17), or the "Holy Scriptures" Romans 1:2.. By the way, the Old Testament is quoted many times by Jesus and the disciples in the New Testament, but the Apocrypha is never quoted by Jesus or any of the writers of the New Testament. The New Testament is made up of 27 books. The word "Testament" means "Covenant". Thus we have the Old Covenant of God with man, and the New Covenant of God with man. The Old Covenant had to do with the Law of Moses, and the New covenant had to do with Grace. God's Grace is expressed in the giving of His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. His death on the Cross, His burial, and His resurrection from the grave to atone for our sins so that through faith in Him and what He did for us, we can be forgiven, saved, and made a child of God. The Bible is not a book of science or history, but is primarily a book about God's complete plan of the redemption of man. The Old Testament points to that redemption in many ways, and the New Testament reveals that Redemption. The Bible tells us that God chose a man, (Abraham). From him He chose a people, (The Israelites). From them He chose a tribe, (Juda). He chose a virgin, (Mary), and through her, gave us the man Jesus the Christ. In and through Jesus and Jesus alone we have Redemption and forgiveness of Sin. The Bible is considered by all major Christian bodies to be the Inspired Word of God. It says of itself in 2 Timothy 3:16, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" Again the Bible tells us how it came to be written. In 2 Peter 1:20-21, "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." The first 5 books of the Bible were written by Moses, and the last book of the New Testament was written by John, so the Bible was written from Moses to about 100 A.D a period of about 1500 years by many authors and it has no contradictions or errors in its original manuscripts The Apocrypha is not considered in that same "Inspired Word". Therefore those books were not included in the canonization of the Bible. The word "canon" etymologically means cane or reed. [Hobo inserts the derivitve RULE] In early Christianity "canon" referred to a list of books approved for public reading. Books not on the list were referred to as "apocryphal" — meaning they were for private reading only. Under Latin usage from the fourth century on, canon came to stand for a closed and authoritative list in the sense of rule or norm. The Apocrypha consists of 14 books which do not meet the required measure for The Inspired Word of God. Some of the reasons why they do not meet that measurement are: (As quoted in Unger's Bible Dictionary which is a very solid source). 1. They abound in historical and geographical inaccuracies and anachronisms. 2. They teach doctrines which are false and foster practices which are at variance with the Inspired Word of God. 3. They resort to literary types and display an artificiality of subject matter and styling out of keeping with Inspired Scripture. 4. They lack the distinctive elements which give genuine Scripture their Divine Character, such as Prophetic power and poetic and religious feeling. If you read some of these 14 books you would see the absurdity of these compared with the writings of the Holy, Inspired Word of God. It really does not take a Scholar to note the difference. You can find a short description in Unger's Bible Dictionary of these books and some of their absurdities as to why they are not accepted as Holy Scripture. (More specific information can be given upon request and in answer to specific questions.) NOTE: Emphasis added by Hobo. Well.... there you have it, Slim. I was expecting a bit more, but if you include this with the WIKIPEDIA articles, I think you will at least see WHY the books were omitted. I don't think "I" would call it some kind of Catholic conspiracy. From what some of you have said, I suppose there is some good reading here, and it IS said that they were for "private reading." I see no harm in them, it's just that they didn't qualify as Holy Scripture for the Public reading for the purpose of INSTRUCTION in God's plan of redemption. Dad DID recount one of the tales to me (something about exorcising demons with the smoke from the burning guts of a fish or something! Sounded a bit far-fetched to ME! It seems that the Bible is supposed to be more or less an account of God's plan for the redemption of Man, and some guidance on how to live it. It appears to me, that the apocrypha just don't really fit into or follow this plan, and therefore are not essential to it. Couple with that the dubious authenticity, and an apparent lack of Holy Inspiration, and you have just some writings by authors of the time. Heck.... "I" could write a book! But, that doesn't mean it would be inspired by God, or germane to the Holy Scriptures (i.e. Bible.) Anyway, I hope this helps. It has been fun delving into this! BTW.... if you DO have questions, my father MEANT it when he said he would entertain them! He's retired, ya know! I can tell through the Spirit, that he was on the mark.. And these few words spoke to me, like none other..It couldn't have been said anybetter. And it hit home.. Thankyou. Slimland
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You can twist perceptions Reality won't budge You can raise objections I will be the judge And the jury Neil Peart
#32
01-16-2008, 11:42 AM
Originally Posted by Slimland
"inability" to commit, or decide, is what persecutes my soul!
This is from a letter I received from an Evangelist I used to know. This conversation reminded me of that one, so I thought I'd share another viewpoint. Reb
__________________
My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson- Democratic-Republican That some should be rich, shows that others may become rich, and, hence, is just encouragement to industry and enterprise. Abraham Lincoln "America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." -Abraham Lincoln
#33
01-16-2008, 02:46 PM
I'm going to try to answer BOTH of you at the same time, though you are both commenting on different "problems" of mine. Slim is discussing my basic belief in God, and Rebel thinks we are talking about the calling to the ministry. But, they are related!
"inability" to commit, or decide, is what persecutes my soul!
Why? Is it Pride, is it because it is something you don't understand, in a spiritual sense.. cause I know you understand it!
Do you not think it is True?
If so, then why does it Persecute your soul? If something isn't true, then there should be no worrie's, But if it is, and Your spiritual being knows, then that my friend is what you need to listen too. For those things that are spiritual, are not understandable by the flesh.
I can DISCUSS christianity with you.... and I can even feel that I am at times "inspired." But, I cannot SELL you on it, if I am not sold on it, or do not feel WORTHY of it. Rebel said:
It's feeling unworthy of the calling. It's knowing that once you accept that mantle, there will be no going back. And your calling isn't an easy one. You aren't the sheep, or even the shepherd, you are called to be the warrior, maybe even a prophet. You will face much criticism and rejection, but you will not be able to stop once you start. You're afraid of failing because you have no faith in yourself. You can't reconcile that you are just the vessel, the instrument. So maybe it is pride after all.
I don't think I would have been a "warrior" and I'm certainly no "prophet," but I cannot even be a good shepherd unless I am sure of my belief....because I WILL NOT BE a hypocrit!! But, it is NOT for lack of faith in myself! I happen to think "I" could be anything I wanted to be! I was once one of the best door to door salesman in the history of the company I worked for.... until one day I snapped.... and could no longer try to SELL something... even though I believed it to be the greatest thing since sliced bread! When I started my own business, and then quickly found out I couldn't afford a salesman.... well.... the business failed! Those of you who came to the "faith" from a "normal" background, find it easy to believe, and easy to profess. I can only tell you that, with ALL the probabilities on my side, I have found it difficult to do BOTH! Let's just say, I cannot stop "armwrestling" with GOD.... or with the CONCEPT of him! :lol: I suppose that the story of Saul, and that of Thomas (maybe even Peter) were written JUST for me! Can it be? Can the Bible be THAT "personal?" How is it that someone who totally rejects the Word, and is comfortable in his decision, can make Millions..... but, "I", because I have been taught to believe that my obstinence will bring me nothing but woe, have NOTHING but woe?? Is God REAL??? Or is this just a "self fulfilling prophecy??" (easily explained by depression and paranoia?) If He IS real.... why does he persecute me so? What does he WANT from me? I don't LIKE having my arm twisted! Why must my MIND always overrule my heart?? Y'all don't have to answer that! They were rhetorical questions! You think I don't KNOW the answers? :lol: But.... IF you want to weigh in..... I am ALWAYS listening! :wink:
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Remember... friends are few and far between. TRUCKIN' AIN'T FOR WUSSES!!! "I am willing to admit that I was wrong." The Rev.
#34
01-16-2008, 03:16 PM
The excerpt I posted was from a letter to me about my "calling", not yours. Your statement and Slims questions just reminded me of it. And not all callings or ministries are in the pulpit. Didn't God use an ass to talk to Balaam?
It boils down to this (from Wikipedia) Free Will In Christian theology, God is described as not only omniscient but omnipotent; a notion which some people, Christians and non-Christians alike, believe implies that not only has God always known what choices individuals will make tomorrow, but has actually determined those choices. That is, they believe, by virtue of his foreknowledge he knows what will influence individual choices, and by virtue of his omnipotence he controls those factors. This becomes especially important for the doctrines relating to salvation and predestination. Other branches, such as Methodists, believe that while God is omnipotent and knows the choices that individuals will make, He still gives individuals the power to ultimately choose (or reject) everything, regardless of any internal or external conditions relating to the choice. For example, when Jesus was nailed on the cross, the two criminals, one on each side, were about to die. Only one asked Jesus for forgiveness while the other, even at the end of his life with nothing else to lose, mocked Jesus. In the view of Methodists and others who believe in free will, this was a free choice of everlasting death over everlasting life. We can discuss the semantics of religion for eternity, but in the end faith is a personal choice that each of us has to make. No one can "sell" you on it. It isn't a commodity, It's an act of will. Reb
__________________
My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson- Democratic-Republican That some should be rich, shows that others may become rich, and, hence, is just encouragement to industry and enterprise. Abraham Lincoln "America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." -Abraham Lincoln
#35
01-16-2008, 04:18 PM
Rebel said:
The excerpt I posted was from a letter to me about my "calling", not yours. Your statement and Slims questions just reminded me of it.
And not all callings or ministries are in the pulpit.
Remember.... I was only about 12!
Didn't God use an ass to talk to Balaam?
Although I had a beautiful voice, and sang in the choir and solos, it never occurred to me to enter THAT ministry. Children's Church, of course, would have been OUT OF THE QUESTION! :shock: :lol: Point is, I wasn't called to "serve." I was called to PREACH. I chose NOT to! And what I know (or accept) of my "faith," tells me that as long as I am "outside of the Will of God," I will never know peace and grace. You just don't tell God "NO!" and get away with it! :wink:
__________________
Remember... friends are few and far between. TRUCKIN' AIN'T FOR WUSSES!!! "I am willing to admit that I was wrong." The Rev.
#36
01-16-2008, 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by golfhobo
Rebel said:
Yes, of course, Rebel... I didn't mean to usurp! I understood that, but the thoughts seemed to apply to ME as well, so I used them. Sorry if you felt that I thought you were "preaching" at me or anything! Typical online misunderstanding. You didn't "usurp" anything. I don't "preach", share maybe, overshare sometimes. :wink: Just offering another view. This is certainly TRUE.... but, at the time, I only considered my calling to be in the pulpit. It wasn't a calling just to "serve," it was a calling to PREACH. the "avenues" were much more limited back then, and I could not foresee some of the opportunities that are available today. Remember.... I was only about 12! I guess growing up with Missionaries in the family, I was aware of more ways to serve, even back in the '60s. (You're only 3 years older than me.)
Didn't God use an ass to talk to Balaam?
Numbers Ch 22 Although I had a beautiful voice, and sang in the choir and solos, it never occurred to me to enter THAT ministry. Why???? Children's Church, of course, would have been OUT OF THE QUESTION! :shock: :lol: Point is, I wasn't called to "serve." I was called to PREACH. I chose NOT to! And what I know (or accept) of my "faith," tells me that as long as I am "outside of the Will of God," I will never know peace and grace. You just don't tell God "NO!" and get away with it! :wink: Check your PM's
__________________
My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson- Democratic-Republican That some should be rich, shows that others may become rich, and, hence, is just encouragement to industry and enterprise. Abraham Lincoln "America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." -Abraham Lincoln
#37
01-17-2008, 10:39 AM
Originally Posted by RebelDarlin
Originally Posted by Slimland
"inability" to commit, or decide, is what persecutes my soul!
It's feeling unworthy of the calling. It's knowing that once you accept that mantle, there will be no going back. And your calling isn't an easy one. You aren't the sheep, or even the shepherd, you are called to be the warrior, maybe even a prophet. You will face much criticism and rejection, but you will not be able to stop once you start. You're afraid of failing because you have no faith in yourself. You can't reconcile that you are just the vessel, the instrument. So maybe it is pride after all.
This is from a letter I received from an Evangelist I used to know. This conversation reminded me of that one, so I thought I'd share another viewpoint. Reb To feel unworthy of a calling--First what is a calling or the calling.? I think it is summed up by King Solomon.. Paraphrased { The whole duty of man, is to Love God and keep His Commandments} And His commandments are not grievious. For they are To love your God, and Love your neighbor.. For the New Covenant under the priesthood of Mekelsedik, who the High Priest is Jesus Christ. Gave us the Law of Love, to replace the Law of Sin and Death. He nailed it to the Cross, wiping out the ordances that were against us.. So the calling is to Love.. This again is IMOP a fault of the church.. For when Jesus taught, He taught the Old Testament Why? To put us under subjection, this gives the Old Law the chance to condem us, thus showing our sin, thus death for it.. Then he showed us the Way the Truth the Life. That through Him, we are freed from that Law, for we died with Him, and rose again to new life, and a new law.. And our sins and lawless act, God remembers NO MORE.. where these HAVE been forgivin. There is now no sacrifice for sin, for it was dealt with Once for All. The great commission was givven to the Apostle's, and with signs and miricals they got people's attention.. thus the word spread.. How do we do the great commision? By Love, for Love is not Boastful, Love is not Envious, Love Does not seek its own desire's, but that of others..etc. Hobo described some of the things he does for his fellow man.. That is the great commission.. what he was afraid of failing at, the whole time God, was and is working through him.. For like a friend just reminded me, when we are week, we are strong.. For Jesus striength is made perfect in our weekness.. As for going back, there is no going back.. Once God has you, His seal is on you till the day of Redeemtion. Regardless, for Jesus said, He lost none, Except for the son of perdition, and that was supposed to happen. Our salvation starts with our believing in the Heart, that Jesus CHrist is the Son of God. After that well it is not our work, but Gods work.. Now rest! We face Critisism No matter, even those of the world face it.. It is just a diffrent subject that what we are used too.. So we will Fail, But God doesn't! No Faith in yourself, Good that makes it even better, then you know beyound a shadow of a doubt that it is God! Slimland Ps.. This is what I was talking about, this is all I have left to do. Teach.. Oh and pretty soon starting later next week after getting out of the hospital, that is all I will be able to do for a while.. :wink:
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You can twist perceptions Reality won't budge You can raise objections I will be the judge And the jury Neil Peart
#38
01-17-2008, 10:51 AM
Quote:
The Church here on earth, the man made church has screwed this message up.. They Take Something So Simple, and put Touch not, Tast Not, Do not's etc.. When Everything is permissible, BUT not everything is Profitable..Do not let anyone judge you in food nor drink, full moon, nor Sabbath.. For all those things where a Shadow of what was to come. And Now that the Fullness has Come. Those things are to be counted as rubbish.. The whole trick is not to become a Slave to any..
I would like to know where to find those verses, but still..... that is not my problem. I UNDERSTAND that my "worldly" sins can be fogiven. There is ONLY one unpardonable sin, and that "inability" to commit, or decide, is what persecutes my soul!
Colossians 2:11-23 11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God. 20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh. --
__________________
You can twist perceptions Reality won't budge You can raise objections I will be the judge And the jury Neil Peart
#39
01-24-2008, 11:54 PM
Originally Posted by RebelDarlin
Originally Posted by golfhobo
Rebel said:
Yes, of course, Rebel... I didn't mean to usurp! I understood that, but the thoughts seemed to apply to ME as well, so I used them. Sorry if you felt that I thought you were "preaching" at me or anything! Typical online misunderstanding. You didn't "usurp" anything. I don't "preach", share maybe, overshare sometimes. :wink: Just offering another view. This is certainly TRUE.... but, at the time, I only considered my calling to be in the pulpit. It wasn't a calling just to "serve," it was a calling to PREACH. the "avenues" were much more limited back then, and I could not foresee some of the opportunities that are available today. Remember.... I was only about 12! I guess growing up with Missionaries in the family, I was aware of more ways to serve, even back in the '60s. (You're only 3 years older than me.)
Didn't God use an ass to talk to Balaam?
Numbers Ch 22 Although I had a beautiful voice, and sang in the choir and solos, it never occurred to me to enter THAT ministry. Why???? Children's Church, of course, would have been OUT OF THE QUESTION! :shock: :lol: Point is, I wasn't called to "serve." I was called to PREACH. I chose NOT to! And what I know (or accept) of my "faith," tells me that as long as I am "outside of the Will of God," I will never know peace and grace. You just don't tell God "NO!" and get away with it! :wink: Check your PM's Rebel, when I said I wasn't aware of some of the avenues of today, I was thinking of Internet Pastors, YOUTH Ministers, and such. I was FULLY aware of the field of Missionaries (if not all the details.) Fact is... I was called to stand in the pulpit and PREACH to a church that needed to have their toes stepped on at times. Even Music, as a 'ministry,' never occurred to me. God gave me the gift of gab, and that of "persuasion." I'm not meant to physically build church buildings (although I HAVE,) nor to do medical work, nor "organization." I'm a SALESMAN! :lol: Anyway..... I wasn't called to "serve" as many are. I was called to Preach. Perhaps more of an Evangelist than even a Pastor, for the latter is a shepherd, and the former is more of an Orator or (as YOU mentioned) a prophet. I'm not "into" guiding peoples' lives.... but CHANGING them. My strongest TOOL, and therefore my biggest obstacle, is the art of 'conviction.' If I feel "unworthy," it is NOT because I don't understand that God forgives the LITTLE sins... but, because I am "convicted" of the BIGGEST one. If my mind or soul will not completely "sell out" to the belief... I WILL NOT attempt to sell others on it! If I feel uncomfortable "professing my belief to the man at the next station in an assembly line, HOW can I stand before a few hundreds or thousands and PREACH the Word to them? And, if I can do NEITHER..... then I am not even a good Christian, and am certainly UNWORTHY to be a PREACHER. I could have made MILLIONS with my "talents," but I buried them in the ground. And the parables tell me that I will be chastised for that on judgement day! If God had called me to be a politician, I'd probably be running for President today (and might WIN! :lol: ) It is the BELIEF that I have disobeyed God, that has led to the depression that has led to my worthless life..... combined with my questions that what if there IS no God, and I've wasted it for nothing!! And it is in THIS respect, that I find myself understanding Fozzy! My "religious indoctrination" has literally KILLED my life! [And for what it's worth.... I didn't care about making MONEY from being a preacher... I just wanted a PURPOSE in life, and some PEACE! I have found NEITHER.] And THAT, more than anything else, is why I became a Trucker! :lol
__________________
Remember... friends are few and far between. TRUCKIN' AIN'T FOR WUSSES!!! "I am willing to admit that I was wrong." The Rev.
#40
01-25-2008, 03:12 AM
I'm not ignoring you, I have to work today, so I'll respond later when I have more time.
Reb
__________________
My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson- Democratic-Republican That some should be rich, shows that others may become rich, and, hence, is just encouragement to industry and enterprise. Abraham Lincoln "America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." -Abraham Lincoln |
