Good movie, Sean Connery as a Russian :shock:

I did start a rather lengthy missive in response to yours, but since I share your penchant for "over analyzing" everything, I'll save it for another time.

Are there specific issues regarding the Apocrypha that are to be discussed? Or is it just the "why were they left out" question?

From what I've read there is no single answer. Each book was supposedly evaluated on its own merits. Some could not be authenticated. There was no other evidence to corroborate their authenticity. Others were deemed redundant and/or offered nothing of real or perceived value. Some believe the Catholic Church at the time purposely left out the "womens" books to try to keep women in their place. Who knows.

They are available to be read here:
http://bible.crosswalk.com/History/BC/Apocrypha/

Personally, they didn't specifically answer any of my questions, but they may speak to someone else.

Reb

I am a practicing Catholic and my Bible (St. Joseph edition) contains the apocryphal books. They are all Old Testament writings. The Protestant Bible (King James and others) do not contain the apocryphal texts. They had nothing to do with the gnostic books found in Nag Hammadi in the 1940's. The gnostic texts after analysis and carbon dating were found to be written in the mid to late second century and into the third century. These texts were hidden in the Egyptian desert to preserve them as orders had been made to find and destroy the texts.

The books that are currently in the Catholic Bible and not in Protestant versions are Tobias, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Baruch and Maccabees. All of these are Old Testament texts.

The gnostic wrtings never appeared in the Bible as we know it today. They were never approved

And might I add, The Gospel of Thomas, which is a collection of the sayings of Jesus, is a wonderful book. It is a gnostic text that never made it to the Bible.

Thanks for the clarification, Colt Fan! As I admitted, I know very little about the apocryhpa myself, and only recently did a little research on the Gnostics. Somehow, I thought some of those writings were the same. My apologies for confusing anyone.

I would like to read the Book of Thomas. I consider myself somewhat LIKE him.... you know.... Doubting Thomas.

Slimland said:

Me, too! He is working on it now. Don't know if I'll get it before I leave out tomorrow or not. [got it, see next post]

Do I do the "works" of the Father? Well, I feel I do the works of the Son! But, if the ONLY "work of the father" is the belief, then I may be calling in sick too often! :lol:

I think I've made it clear that I have doubts. When I see the beauty of nature, or feel the conviction in my soul that has led me to write some pretty good religious poetry, it is HARD to deny Him. But, the one "work" I had the most problem with is the Great Commandment. I don't LIKE being a "salesman," and I feel that if I DON'T confess Him, I am sinning.

WHY??? Is it something "I" said??? Did I make you feel that this was a burden on ME??

Bingo! I HAVE heard the gospel, and I am to be held accountable for any LACK of belief in it.

I would like to know where to find those verses, but still..... that is not my problem. I UNDERSTAND that my "worldly" sins can be fogiven. There is ONLY one unpardonable sin, and that "inability" to commit, or decide, is what persecutes my soul!

Of course, Peter DID! I don't know for sure what I would say if asked the question. It would NOT be a matter of saving my life..... it would be an honest inability to say for sure! :lol:

As an impressionable young teen, only a few years after being "saved." Like many young boys, I wanted to be like my father. I'm sure you can see that I have the gift of gab to go with it! :wink:

I'm gonna save this for another time. I have just lost (MID POST) my ability to highlight and copy, so I will probably not even get this on the board without losing it! :roll: [I succeeded.]

Thank you. But, you are TOO kind. ops:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Did I say "agreed with?" I thought I said "understand." :wink:

Your Friend
Slimland

THE BIBLE AND THE APOCRYPHA

Written by: GolfHobo's father



To measure anything, you must have a valid measuring stick. Without that, one person's measurement is as good as another's, and none are valid, they are only opinions. In this case, the measuring stick is the Bible, or the Holy Scriptures. By the second century A.D., the Christians called their Holy Scriptures "ta Biblia". In English we call it "The Bible". So I will refer to The Holy Scriptures as the Bible.



The Old Testament is made up of 39 books. Jesus, in Luke 24:44, recognized these as Holy Scriptures referring to them as "the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the "writings" or Psalms. In the New Testament, the Old Testament is sometimes called the "Law and the Prophets" (Matthew 5:17), or the "Holy Scriptures" Romans 1:2.. By the way, the Old Testament is quoted many times by Jesus and the disciples in the New Testament, but the Apocrypha is never quoted by Jesus or any of the writers of the New Testament.


The New Testament is made up of 27 books. The word "Testament" means "Covenant". Thus we have the Old Covenant of God with man, and the New Covenant of God with man. The Old Covenant had to do with the Law of Moses, and the New covenant had to do with Grace. God's Grace is expressed in the giving of His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. His death on the Cross, His burial, and His resurrection from the grave to atone for our sins so that through faith in Him and what He did for us, we can be forgiven, saved, and made a child of God.



The Bible is not a book of science or history, but is primarily a book about God's complete plan of the redemption of man. The Old Testament points to that redemption in many ways, and the New Testament reveals that Redemption. The Bible tells us that God chose a man, (Abraham). From him He chose a people, (The Israelites). From them He chose a tribe, (Juda). He chose a virgin, (Mary), and through her, gave us the man Jesus the Christ. In and through Jesus and Jesus alone we have Redemption and forgiveness of Sin.



The Bible is considered by all major Christian bodies to be the Inspired Word of God. It says of itself in 2 Timothy 3:16, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" Again the Bible tells us how it came to be written. In 2 Peter 1:20-21, "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

The first 5 books of the Bible were written by Moses, and the last book of the New Testament was written by John, so the Bible was written from Moses to about 100 A.D a period of about 1500 years by many authors and it has no contradictions or errors in its original manuscripts





The Apocrypha is not considered in that same "Inspired Word". Therefore those books were not included in the canonization of the Bible. The word "canon" etymologically means cane or reed. [Hobo inserts the derivitve RULE] In early Christianity "canon" referred to a list of books approved for public reading. Books not on the list were referred to as "apocryphal" — meaning they were for private reading only. Under Latin usage from the fourth century on, canon came to stand for a closed and authoritative list in the sense of rule or norm.



The Apocrypha consists of 14 books which do not meet the required measure for The Inspired Word of God. Some of the reasons why they do not meet that measurement are: (As quoted in Unger's Bible Dictionary which is a very solid source).



1. They abound in historical and geographical inaccuracies and anachronisms.



2. They teach doctrines which are false and foster practices which are at variance with the Inspired Word of God.



3. They resort to literary types and display an artificiality of subject matter and styling out of keeping with Inspired Scripture.



4. They lack the distinctive elements which give genuine Scripture their Divine Character, such as Prophetic power and poetic and religious feeling.



If you read some of these 14 books you would see the absurdity of these compared with the writings of the Holy, Inspired Word of God. It really does not take a Scholar to note the difference.



You can find a short description in Unger's Bible Dictionary of these books and some of their absurdities as to why they are not accepted as Holy Scripture.



(More specific information can be given upon request and in answer to specific questions.)


NOTE: Emphasis added by Hobo.

Well.... there you have it, Slim. I was expecting a bit more, but if you include this with the WIKIPEDIA articles, I think you will at least see WHY the books were omitted. I don't think "I" would call it some kind of Catholic conspiracy.

From what some of you have said, I suppose there is some good reading here, and it IS said that they were for "private reading." I see no harm in them, it's just that they didn't qualify as Holy Scripture for the Public reading for the purpose of INSTRUCTION in God's plan of redemption.

Dad DID recount one of the tales to me (something about exorcising demons with the smoke from the burning guts of a fish or something! :roll: Sounded a bit far-fetched to ME! :wink:

It seems that the Bible is supposed to be more or less an account of God's plan for the redemption of Man, and some guidance on how to live it. It appears to me, that the apocrypha just don't really fit into or follow this plan, and therefore are not essential to it. Couple with that the dubious authenticity, and an apparent lack of Holy Inspiration, and you have just some writings by authors of the time. Heck.... "I" could write a book! But, that doesn't mean it would be inspired by God, or germane to the Holy Scriptures (i.e. Bible.)

Anyway, I hope this helps. It has been fun delving into this! BTW.... if you DO have questions, my father MEANT it when he said he would entertain them! He's retired, ya know!

Darlin'.... I went to your link, but only found a short summation. Is there a link I'm missing on that page? BTW.... which of the books are the "Wimmin's Books?" I want to START with those! :wink:

Towards the bottom...here
http://bible.crosswalk.com/History/B...aBookList.html

It is misleading because it just says "Apocrypha Book List"
It describes the Books, but if you click "begin reading" it goes to the book.

Reb