[quote]I asked you who WE are and who Our refers too... you're a question behind. Do try and keep up...

 

Fozzy

I think it was originally "our and "us" now it's "we and "our"?
I thought it was rather self evident, maybe I used in the incorrect context? , but please, tell me what you think "our" and "us" means.

 

Let's try this again You made the statement about our and us.. to whom where you referring and who gets excluded from the "our and us" limitations and how does the government do that?

 

Gordo, I'm on your side, but I am NOT your shadow. I appreciate that you appreciate my thoughts, tho' calling them SANITY may be a stretch! :lol:

First, I am just now understanding the FIRST quote you referenced by Jefferson. He was, as you know a proponent of true Democracy.... NOT a representative government. But, I am a fan of his.

It is imperative to note that Jefferson felt that Government was second only to criminals as a threat to the people. So, he advocated using the Constitution (a treaty with and for the protection of the people) to "constrain" the government so that it would not BECOME a legalized version of a Criminal "consortium."

Jefferson was a wise man, with extraordinary foresight for a man of his time. He was, perhaps, the FIRST of our forefathers to predict the abuses of the likes of Reagan (Arms for hostages, and CONTRA governments,) propping up anti-public opinion governments, Nixon and the subversion of the voting process, and Bush and the illegal use of the military for Imperialistic means, and the suspension of Constitutional rights in the name of "terror mongering."

There is NO DOUBT that he foresaw these abuses, and warned us against them.

Yet, he said: ---"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." -- Thomas Jefferson.

This shows that, from the beginning, there was little value or concern about this ammendment. Only one with HIS foresight could foresee a time when "they" (the government) would try to "take it away." I cringe at his description of such an event as a "beauty." After what he'd gone through, the prospect of an armed uprising by armed American citizens should have been considered a chaos, and a failure of the American Experiment.

And for the LIFE of me, I cannot understand why Pro-gun conservatives, who stand fully behind the current government, fear this eventuality. I guess it is because they think it will come at the direction of the "anti-gun" Democrats.... whereas the current trend of trampling on our rights comes directly from the Republicans!

I guess I just can't get behind the notion that we must protect ourselves from gunloving, warmongering Republican administrations! But, then, I guess these "isolationists" are afraid of their own shadows!

After further review, I suppose that Jefferson was warning us against the current form of "Republican" government, ...that is intent on deciding what is best for us, regardless of the cost, and intent on disabusing us of our rights! Yet.... WHY would they then support our rights to bear the arms we will possibly use to revolt against them?

Of course, it doesn't escape my attention that, our "Militias" (National Guards) which were designed to protect the States, are mostly deployed (illegally) to the Iraq war, so that they won't BE here to support the people of their states IF such an uprising became necessary!

Bush may be an idiot, but the men who pull his strings are NOT!

I like Jefferson. I DO find his quotes to be enlightening. But, in the face of our current reality.... I find them somewhat frightening! Of course, he is not alone. One of my favorite presidents, Eisenhower, clearly predicted the unholy alliance between an imperialistic (and ignorant) president and the M.I.C! And we are now reaping what the ignorant Republican voters have sown! :roll:

If you google Eisenhower's Final Address, you will all but SEE the name BUSH mentioned repeatedly!

By a huge majority of both Popular and Congressional vote (and/or polling) it is clear that we now recognize our mistake! Too bad, so sad, too late!! I predicted it 8 years ago!! Some.... of course.... will say it is not true. But, they only show their own ignorance of both the FACTS AND public opinion! They are, a castigated minority, and too simple minded to realize it!

 

Fozzy said:

Nope, sorry. Not even close. Try again.

I posed three specific questions based on YOUR responses. More B.S. from you, aimed at deflecting Gordo's questions will not fit the bill.

But, I appreciate your "intent" to do so.

 

Fozzy:


1.) I consider “our” and “us” to mean legal citizens of the United States. I am certain you understand what I am saying.
** us (us) pron. The objective case of we.
** our ( ou’ar) pron. A form of the possessive case of we used as an attributive adjective: Example: Our team won.

2.) The government, can “limit” through either a act of admission (passing a amendment) or omission (failing to adequately enforce a amendment.)
Example: Admission: The 18th Amendment. “Prohibition.” "…the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for beverage purposes is hereby prohibited."
Later repealed of course by the will of the People, in Amendment 21, section 1.

Example: Omission: The 15th Amendment, Section 1. The right to Vote.
"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude--"

 

golfhobo

Yes, I appreciate Jeffersons insights also. Of course when in school and having to learn about it, it was boring. Now, later in life, reading some of his thoughts and seeing what is happening sometimes in our country is at times rather haunting.
Also, I have visited friends in some of the former countries of the Soviet Union. A very eye opening experience of what 65 years or so of oppressive government can do. It certainly gave me a new appreciation of what we have here. And what we have to loose, if we don't pay closer attention.

 

I'm not wasting my time Fozzy. I'll post facts, quotes and info, and you'll just say it's crap and offer nothing else.

 

in other words, you know that there is no "scary" answer to your accusations about the supposed "evil" patriot act.

 

Well you tried. what does a legal citizen look like? And you make the assumption that constitutional protections do not cover illegals.. it does. You want to use the constitution all the time, yet the simple idea of asking one person even IF they are illegal breaks the constitutional protection unless they have broken the law. Simply being here in no way gives law enforcement any right to even broach the subject. Terrorists appear to be law abiding citizens and most of them are.. until they push the button. So welcome to the freedoms of terrorists to operate until the pull off the attack.