I'm having trouble posting, which is a HUGE benefit to Dweller! :lol:

I'll continue this next weekend.

 

There is one image of New Orleans that stands out in my mind. It is of a disabled person in a wheel chair who suffered, and died at the super dome, waiting for help to arrive that never came. The person had a sheet thrown over them, and people walked by like the person never existed.

Now, explain to me how a disabled person in a wheel chair is supposed to leave a city without a way, or means to get out?... Many people who live in cities use public transportation. If there are no public services set up to get them out, how are they supposed to leave the city?!...

As for socialism in this country? How about thinking about the disabled in this country for a moment. Oh, and don't forget those brave military service people who've come back disabled from their efforts...

Those disabled who can not work to support themselves, and unfortunately have no other resources, who then to have to rely on the Federal, and state governments.

What would you like the disabled to do?... Just up and die, or commit suicide?

You know that kind of mentality to rid the earth of the disabled, was part of Hitlers final solution... So, are you saying you have no compassion for the disabled in this country, and that they should be gotten rid of, so they won't require support financial, or otherwise, from their own government...

By the way, while billions have been sent to pay for the wars in Iraq, and else where. The Federal government has cut 40 million dollars from health, and social services.

Now tell those who are retired, living on social security, and the disabled, that you feel their needs are turning this country into a socialist nation...

If you don't want to spend your hard earned tax dollars, why not start by demanding that all those who can not afford to have children be denied by law the ability to have children (including forced abortions). Also then by law, force men who father such children to pay for them, so the government doesn't have too...

Cut off the welfare subsidies to industry, like Agriculture, and others. Cut off funding small businesses, if you want to start, or improve a business do it on your own. Don't go looking for a hand out by the government.

If you want to buy your first home, save your money for it. Don't go looking at HUD for your first time buyers assistance, their a government agency as well...

There is a lot the government pays for that you maybe over looking. So, if you want to cut government funding for social programs, I suggest you cut government funding for all the so called "hand out" programs...

After all you want to be "fair" don't you?... :roll: Look at any wealthy corporation, Ford, GM, Chrysler, etc., they've gotten so called government "Hand Outs"...

This isn't Nazi Germany, and by the way, if our government wasn't raiding the money that went into the social security fund, for wars, etc., maybe there would be money in there for those who will need it down the road... :roll:

 

RedRaven,

Gotta boogie now...will respond to your post later.

Have a safe one!

 

I had tears in my eyes as the Katrina disaster unfolded.


When a disaster such as Katrina strikes, the best laid plans of people both in the public sector and private sector can fall apart quickly. Sometimes the plans hold together fairly well. In Katrina's case, they did not--the evacuation planning, to name one example, failed badly.


Unfortunately, the disabled, afflicted, elderly, and the poor tend to be an afterthought in today's drive-through and throw-away society. Is that right? Absolutely not! When a catastrophe occurs, it is their tragic stories we hear most often.

A century ago and beyond, our forefathers did not rely on government for support. Rather local churches supported both members and non-members assisting the poor, disabled, elderly, and afflicted. Over the last century, as our nation has increasingly divorced herself from God and moral decay has set in, society has turned more and more to government to be the ultimate sustainer and provider of people needing support.


However, our government was never designed to be the ultimate sustainer and provider of people. Our founding fathers realized that handing over more of one's income and relinquishing more of one's power to the State was dangerous. So they drafted a darn good Constitution and Bill of Rights--for every individual. Their goal simply was to have checks and balances to that government would never become too big, powerful, and bloated. (as well as influenced by special interest groups along the way).


That's the dilemma facing us in America today--should we or shouldn't we turn more of our income and power over to our government. Katrina showed us that Local, State, and Federal government failed to take care of citizens in a disaster. It illustrates the point that our government was never designed to play that role. Other than God, there is no perfect provider or perfect anything. There is no perfect business, no perfect job, and no perfect government. Heck--there ain't no perfect family! And yet we have this illusion that government (of all things) can be the perfect provider and sustainer to people in need. It can't.


Am I for our government in helping the disabled, afflicted, and elderly? Heck yes! (Keep in mind that there are many disabled, afflicted, and elderly who don't want assistance from the government--they are making it without government assistance.) Would I like to see our nation rely less on government and more on churches and the private sector for helping people in that situation? Heck yes! What about the poor? That depends. Wise men and women realize that the poor will always be among us. It may not be fair but that's reality. To those who are poor and in genuine need of short term assistance, I say to our government let's provide support with very little red tape. However to the impoverished people who are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves long term but who have become addicted to State aid, I say wean them off--the quicker the better.


A "social" and free society such as this nation can and does take care of the disabled, afflicted, elderly, and the poor within reason. A "socialistic" society (Socialism) does the same thing albeit with far less individual control and freedom (I.E giving up income and power). Neither system is perfect. However, I'll side with the one where my freedoms are not gradually removed.

Absolutely not--haven't even hinted at it.

The wars in Iraq and elsewhere are a just war. Muslim extremists are engaged in a holy war against the West and especially against America. Most people cannot even comprehend what a holy war is. Essentially, it is you win at any cost or die trying. This is a different kind of war--unlike any war America has ever been involved with. And it won't stop just because we bring our troops home. In the terrorist minds, it is war until American and western values/culture/people are destroyed.


As such, it's pure foolishness to put our heads in the sand and pretend it will all go away.


Ask the retired and disabled who need government assistance which scenario they would prefer:
1. End the war, bring the troops home, watch as thousands die on this soil in this country from terroristic attacks.
2. Stay in the war, bring troops home as we can, and avoid seeing terrorist atrocities in this country.


There's a reason the terrorists have not hit this country since 9-11-2001. It's because we won't back down to their cowardly acts. Justice will be done. The 3,000+ people who died on September 11 were innocent civilians--we won't forget them. Our troops who have died defending the freedom of this nation and all it stands for--they have not died in vain. As far as the disabled and non-disabled troops returning home--I salute them with every ounce of strength in me. They have stood up and counted the cost in defending the values this nation holds dear against a ruthless, cowardly enemy. Their courage means I can breathe a little easier as my wife, my daughter, my son, my parents, siblings, relatives, friends, colleagues go about their lives every day.

The needs of the retired, those living on Social Security, and the disabled are NOT turning this country into a Socialistic nation. Rather it is our entitlement mentality in the first place that is causing us to swerve closer to a Socialistic nation.

I'm not against taxation. I'm against increased taxation without common sense justification.

Sounds pretty totalitarian to me. I would stress education along with a return to sound moral principles. Of course if that doesn't work, our country may be forced to take more drastic measures along the lines you describe.

I'm all for short term loans / assistance. It's the long term loans / assistance that is bankrupting our country.

I don't desire to cut most government funding for social programs. I do desire taking a hard, honest look at the results. For example, is a government social program such as Welfare assistance helping those out of poverty so that they can get off that program?

Life isn't fair. Neither is Capitalism. Neither is Socialism. In fact, any "ism" isn't fair. Lack of fairness stinks doesn't it? I'll stick to what has been working in America--in all its unfairness--over Socialism any day.


As far as hand-outs to big corporations, I'm OK with short term loans with stiff penalties attached if the repayment plan goes south. Keep in mind that if a big company (such as Ford, GM, or Chrysler) vanished overnight, the overall impact to the economy would be devasting.

I'm very glad this isn't Nazi Germany.


The reason our government raids/borrows/does IOU's out of the Social Security fund is because all of us are to damn dependent on entitlements in the first place. Social Security is itself an entitlement. Any politician who wants to commit political suicide simply has to say "let's abolish the Social Security system." Poof...he/she's gone. Everybody wants a piece of a very limited financial pie. Those who are in danger of losing their "fair" share will scream bloody murder and loudly.


RedRaven, while I don't agree with your opinions, I respect them and respect you for voicing them.

 

Big Wheels, I would like you to consider something...

What exactly is it that your want the US government to do for it's people?... What exactly do you want your tax dollars to go toward?...

I would like you to consider this in regard to so called entitlements...

Your a trucker, and hypothetically tomorrow you end up in a very bad accident (off duty), and you suffer brain injury, and spinal injuries. You are suddenly not only permanently injured, and will never work again. But, you've lost your only source of income, and you still have a family to support.

Who are you going to turn to for assistance?... I hope you have a healthy insurance policy that will pay for your needs the rest of your life, should something happen to you... But, what if you don't?... Then what?...

You have a wife, and family that maybe able to help you. But, what about those individuals who may not have such a support system. Who do they turn too?...

The solution for the poor in this country could be easily solved, pay a fair wage for so called low wage jobs, and instead of giving "welfare" to those who are able to work. Give them vouchers to get an education. There are enough public community colleges in this nation, that could provide such educations at a reasonable cost to the government.

We spend obsene amounts of money to build more prisons, and pay more to house one prisoner, then this country pays in welfare to one individual who needs that type of assistance. I saw on local news it costs $80,000.00 a year to house one prisoner!... That is insane... Most people receiving welfare are lucky to get a little over $10,000.00 a year to live on. Where is the logic in that scenario... Why not spend the money right the first time, for education, instead of spending money reactionary toward building more prisons.

Another unfortunate let down is that public schools are not educating kids toward careers they will need in the future. While we are teaching Johnny to read, we are not teaching him how to balance a check book, how to handle finances, learn what he will need to make a decent living.

College educations have gotten very expensive. So, who gets a good education, and a good career?... Only those who can afford it?...

If you want to talk about values, then why haven't the religious communities solved the povety issue?... They've had more than enough time, and years to work on it...

I heard a local nun say to someone who was disabled, and possibly facing being homeless, that maybe they should consider looking into homeless centers in their area... What kind of help is that?...

You refer to how life was over 100 years ago in this country. Those days are long gone, and that's why we all look to the government when times turn bad...

There is no more community. People live in the suburbs, and don't even know their next door neighbor, and most of the time, don't want to know their next door neighbor...

Everyone is living in a world of their own, there is no compassion toward anyone else, unless there is something to be gained by doing so...

People in this country regardless of whether they are religious, or not... Really don't go out of their way to do for others, unless there is something in it for them...

Do you go out of your way to help those in your community... I saw on television this commercial for an event that was a big food tasting event. Food being prepared by the best chefs, for people to come taste, and pay money donations that would go toward food for local food banks.

How insulting is that?... Why not just have these people with money pay a donation and give the very expensive meals to the poor who can't afford to buy them... Give them at least one decent meal, instead of having to get bad foods from local food banks. In fact if the government was giving those who needed food assistance enough in food stamp amounts. They would be able to provide their families with healthy, nutritious, fresh foods straight from their local grocery store. That would provide for their families an entire month. Instead of short changing that program, leaving people without food for their families by the 3rd week of each month.

That's why people go hungry in the US... Why not take some of those corporate subsidies, and give those who need food assistance the dignity to provide healthy, fresh foods for their families.

Sometimes I think that all the religious, and other so called "do gooders", only attempt to help people in need to make themselves feel better about who they are, instead of really making the effort to resolve the issues once, and for all...

In my state alone there are over 80 homeless shelters, and growing... Why not create a 501 (c) that simply builds, and provides housing to those who need it. Instead of building homeless shelters... Get real estate developers to agree to build some housing for the poor in the same neighborhoods that they are building multi million dollar homes in for a profit. Consider it their charitable donation to the community they are building homes in, and profitting from.

The other really disgusting issue regarding homes for those who are low income is that, all these so called bedroom communities do not want the poor, or low income living in their community... They fight when state government tells them they must have a percentage of housing in their community allocated to low income people. They fight to stop building of decent housing that would provide homes for those who are considered low income, never mind the very poor. They don't want to provide for them at all...

It isn't right that many towns become very incestuous, and those towns that have generations of families living, and working in them, then want to exlude outsiders. As though they are a threat to their way of life...

Instead of having your teens working at the local pizza parlor, why not provide housing in your community for the poor, that they could then take those low wage jobs, and still be able to pay for the roof over their head, put food on the table, take care of their families, and gain their dignity back, and be productive members of that community.

Instead this country functions with a business mentality, if it isn't going to profit someone, then there is no reason to do it. The US government, and local government funtion in a reactionary mode. It is always put a band aide on problems, instead of doing the real work of solving the problem in the first place.

Why not pay those who are not well educated to maintain state, and local parks, pay them a decent wage to do it, instead of leaving it to state park commissions, who dont' do the job well anyway, but still get paid big salaries from the state government to maintain these parks.

You see trash everywhere you go, why not give the poor jobs that would pay a decent wage to clean up local cities, towns, parks, etc... Why are they using prison labor to clean highways, when there are people who need jobs that could earn a pay check doing the work. Yes, I understand that prison labor is used to save the government money. But, maybe that could be done through the private sector. We have private companies that do trash collection, why not the other...

Anyway, I get fed up hearing from those who are often spouting about values, and being self rightous, while they watch people suffering around them, and don't really offer help that would put an end to that suffering. Many being hypocrites. Let's cut funding, so the poor can suffer some more, while I want my tax break to improve my million dollar business, so that I can build my third home in Hawaii. While others don't, or can't afford to buy one home for themselves, and their families.

Anyway... I agree to disagree with you... :wink:

 

[RedRaven makes some interesting points. I disagree with a lot of it, but you should go back and read it.]

My experience is that you really can't give people anything and get good results. College educations......extra pay for doing menial jobs......free housing....cover those who are not insured.....most of it has proved to be a worthwhile only in theory. Most of the very poor - not all, but most - are there because of their own sorry efforts. The only thing that will dig them out is their own effort.

On the subject of the educational system I do agree; it is not doing its job. But that is because the feds are involved and have created endless rules, guidelines, and tests - all for naught. Jimmy Carter established the Dept of Education, and the results have been terrible.
Abolish the Department of Education. Move education to the local level and it will begin to succeed again.

 

I had my own business for over 30 years. (not trucking) On many ocasions I hired people that needed a "second chance". My experience with these people was not good. One wrecked a company car while rolling a joint. One broke in at night and vandalized my place. Most could not get to work on time or not show up at all.
I could write a book on the excuses I heard for tardiness. It would be called good humor. Example (this is true).
EMPLOYEE: Sorry I'm late.
ME: What happened?
EMPLOYEE: My alarm clock didn't go off. I had no electricity.
ME: Did it get turned off, pay the bill?
EMPLOYEE: Yes, it got disconnected. I had to use the money to get my kid out of jail....
Get the picture???

The "Jaded Capitalist" ...Retired...

 

Usedup tells a tale that reminds me of a couple I rented a house to. Every time the kid in Michigan (the house is in Mississippi) got himself in jail, the rent money would be used to bail him out.

And when the daughter got pregnant?........well, now, you can't pay rent and pay a doctor bill, too.....besides, she was proud as punch to be pregnant. Forget the fact that her education stopped when she got pregnant. And she knew the value of education; her brother is a doctor....not the one in jail, the other one.

Every year we would find ourselves forgiving a few hundred dollars in past due rent....but we forgave and moved on. After all, they were extremely clean rentors, and that counts.

In the end, some guy came along and just had to buy that house, so we sold it to him. He moved his ne'r-do-well sister in there and she was promptly arrested for nanufacturing meth..... :? heh, heh...she doesn't need the house anymore, I guess.

Is any program going to help these people? No. I guess not. They buy what they want and beg for what they need. :?

 

I see....

So, because of a few bad apples, you want to spoil the whole bunch... You want to put an entire class of people into the same barrel with those who squander their opportunities.

I can tell you this, you will find those same examples in every other economic class in this society... You can find people in every economic sector giving excuses as to why they were late to work.

I can tell you this... In my state I would have to say the number one excuse is the traffic... That is if you have to take any of the major highways here to get too, and from your job...

I've seen homes that people own that were left to fall apart. Paint peeling, shudder left hanging half off their hinges. Yard unkept, old rusted cars left in the yard with the grass growing up around them. Junk left in their yards, and these are people with jobs, and own their own home...

There are executives that steal from their own companies, like Enron... So, you can't say that everyone who is poor is unclean, doesn't show up to work on time, and is a thief...

Oh, and most of your illegal drug users would probably be found in your middle class. They are the ones who can afford to buy the drugs.

Also unfortunately, another drug, and it is legal, also ruins lives, careers, etc... Alcohol... It is the worst legal drug this society has, and it's affects ruin the lives of people everyday, who don't even use it. Those who become victims of drunk drivers...

Pregnancy, you can find many middle class families that have a teen that gets pregnant... The difference is that the middle class family is probably more likely to have the financial resources to pay for the medical, and financial needs of that pregnancy, then those who are poor...

Don't get me wrong though, I absolutely disagree with any woman, or young girl getting pregnant, without the ability to financially support the child they intend to bring into the world. It is irresponsible, and cruel to the innocent child. Unfortunately though people seem to forget that the pregnant young girl, or woman didn't get pregnant all by herself. There is a man in the picture, and he should be held accountable for his actions, and be forced to pay for that child regardless. Now there is DNA testing it is easier to identify the father...

Sadly though you can find woman, and men in any economic class being irresponsible. The difference is that your not concerned about the other economic classes being irresponsible, because you don't have to pay into a system that attempts to give them financial support.

The middle class, and upper class can afford to pay for their mistakes...

Though you will find many nasty accounts in the news of divorced couples, where the woman is trying to get child support, or alimony, and that term dead beat dad comes up... So, you can find the same "TYPE" of person in any economic class.

You can't leave education up to each state, because education now has to go universal, global... You can't have an area of the country where the strongest industry, or job provider is for example Manufacturing. Then go to another area of the country, and you find that High Tech. is the strongest industry. Because the fact is that people also want the ability to move. To live where ever they wish too. They shouldn't be limited in their opportunities by an educational system that will only focus on educating them toward employment in their own state...

If that were the case in some states coal mining is the biggest employing industry, are you going to educate kids in that state to focus only on the coal mining industry...

I've noticed something disturbing actually. I've looked at area colleges, not only in my state, but in surrounding states. I've noticed that these colleges, are doing a lot of focussing on careers that are strongest in their own state... Now, how does someone who is poor, or low income going to afford to send their kids to another state because that's the only school providing a degree in the subject that student is interested in for a career.

The middle class these days can't afford to send their kids to college without financial assistance. The cost of a college degree these days will leave many students who graduate college in debt until they are well into their 30's... How are the poor, and low income going to afford such opportunities?...

Are you aware that since the enactment of welfare reform, that anyone who gets welfare, can only get it for 2 years, and then they lose it... No more checks, no more welfare assistance, period.

Unless there are support systems in place to help these people get an education toward a job they can do, and make a living at, once their welfare ends. They are going to be in a much worse situation.

Here is an example to think about as well... If, you have a single mother, who is receiving welfare, and she may actually be a mother who is single from divorce as well. Who would take care of her children, while she tries to attend school to get an education to support her children, once her welfare stops?... Who is going to pay for day care of those kids, while she attends school?... Even if she does get an education, there is still the question of paying for child care, while she goes off to work...

It is difficult enough for a middle class family to support a family, when both parents have to work, never mind a single parent having to do the same.

It is a very complicated situation all around. But, you have to start somewhere, and whether you like it or, not. The government has to offer some kind of assistance to help people in these situations get on their feet, and find a way to become self supportive...

You just can't throw people into the streets, not offer support systems, and expect them to succeed.

We all like to hear about the success stories of people who pulled themselves up by the boot straps, and fought to succeed. But, unfortunately there are far to many more stories of people who just don't have the knowledge, or ability to do it on their own, to find those resources that will help them up, and out of their situation.

If you can't afford a computer, or a phone, how are you supposed to find resources to help you out of your situation?...

I think that kids should be required to graduate from high school. The days when kids left school at age 16 to help on the family farm, are long gone. Kids should be getting counciling to educate them as to why it is vital for them to get their education while they can, and what will become of them, if they decide to quit school...

Unfortunately not every child comes from a supportive family, many come from broken homes, dysfuctional homes, abusive homes. It is very difficult for those children to even think about their own future. When sometimes they are just trying to survive each day in their family environment.

This country spends millions, and even billions on sending money over seas to help 3rd world countries. How can we offer true help to other countries, until we have cleaned up our own back yard, sort of speak. If we in this country can't solve our own issues around poverty. How can we expect to solve the same issues around the rest of the world?...

Just some things to think about here... :wink:

 

Welcome to reality...