Some clergy try to impress people with their degrees and belittle the lay people who question their teaching or the teachings of their church. However, this is true of most all occupations.

I wonder how many times an apprentice has pointed out something only for the "master" not even to consider it but instead tells the apprentice to shut up puting the apprentice "in his place". Then after hours of wasted time, the "master" is humbled because the apprentice was right in that particular case. I think sometimes, the experienced person is so proud that he won't even admit to the apprentice that he was wrong.

There is only one Master and He must be served. Status means nothing.

 

Well said ChapChap!

I too have noticed this, and also have been in both situations..
On my part it was I guess pride, and we know pride come's befor the downfall.

 

Ok Slimland, I am present and accounted for......

I have been trying to read through the thread and pick up on some subject matter but it seems like it has been somewhat of a hodge-podge of discussion. So I am going to try and hit on one of the last post.

I look at the state of church's in two ways. First, there are clear examples of church's, or maybe better said as denominations (but both words will work), that are falling away from Biblical authority. There is no doubt that church's today are twisting themselves in all kinds of contortions to be what they want to be and not what is instructed in the Bible & by God.

But on the other side I see some folks who are quick to say that a particular church or denomination has "fallen away" because they don't quite see eye to eye on some issue. I think this is an area we must be very careful of and is addressed in scripture in Mark 9:38-41

38"Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
39"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us. 41I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.

I was listening to Pastor Tony Evans on the radio while working the other night and he had a good term for what we should do as Chrisitans working together. "Do not confuse membership with fellowship." Just because we belong to different denominations we still are part of Christ's church.

The answer was already hit on in the thread and in short it is......do not take anything said by a so called leader, no matter who they are, blindly without searching it out yourself in The Bible with the help of the Holy Spirit. 1 Thess 5:21 & 1 John 4:1-3

21Test everything. Hold on to the good.

1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

The thought of testing really hits on the quote in your post about what do the churches really want. Clearly there are those who use the name of God to further their own interest. It has been that way since the beginning and is just another example of how far in sin mankind is sunk.

Individuals must take the time to read The Bible, pray, and test what is said. Just because the Pastor has a alphabet of letters behind his name listing all the degrees he has it does not matter. Give me the Holy Spirit helping a man with a limited education anyday.

Should following Christ make someone's head spin. No, not at all. In fact, part of the reason Christ was here the first time was to help show us that you do not need a man centered religious hierarchy to comune with God. Christ made the task of following Him just so plain simple it's silly.

First, what's our problem? We sin....Romans 3:23
Second, what's the result of sin? Death & then Judgement.....Romans 6:23 & Hebrews 9:27
Third, do we have any hope? Yes, in Christ John 3:16, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 9:22, & Romans 5:8
Fourth, so what do we do? Believe & Repent...Acts 17:30, Acts 16:30-31, John 1:12, & Romans 10:13
Finally, ok I do so how should live going forward? In short, as it is said in Matthew 22:37-40 (paraphrased)...

Love God with everything you got! Your heart, mind, soul, & body. And just as important, love your neighbor as yourself. These are the two most important commandments from God.

Finally, the quote in your post being rich and following God is short so it's hard to understand the full context. Can you have riches and still follow God? Yes, as long as your riches do not define you or cause you to follow wealth instead of God. Remember, man can not have two masters. When Christ told the rich man to sell all he had and follow him the rich man was discouraged because he did not want to give up his wealth. Wealth was his master and Christ knew it. God can provide talents to us as he sees fit and as we are worthy. That includes wealth. Joseph of Aramathea was a wealthy man who followed Christ.

Ok, so this is the last finally...really...
Should you become part of a church? Yes, no man is an island. Living the Christian life is no picnic! It is necessary not to foresake meeting together so that we can get encouragement and support from fellow believers. Should someone be made to believe that they are lost from God for not officially joining a formal big building church? No. There are many home based churchs, study groups, and Bible meetings that can offer the Christian support and chance for fellowship. So how should someone decide where to go. Simple, seek out God's help through prayer study of the Bible to find a suitable place for you to fellowship.


Man this post is disjointed! I may come back and edit it for clarity. But those are some initial thoughts.

 

Redeemed - The story of the rich young ruler is also used for pastors and others to tell people that you can not be rich. Wealth is not for the Christian. If the ruler gave up his wealth, he would have more than likely been another disciple. Don't forget the verse after that, that says basically it is easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle than it is for the rich to get into heaven.

Please, please, please don't tell me you are one of those who actually believe an eye of a needle refers to an eye on a sewing needle. I had an elementary teacher (nun) actually tell me that you would have to chop up the camel and blend it to get it to go through the eye. For those of you who don't know yet, Jesus was actually referring to a very narrow back door a city. If someone was in trouble and needed to get into a city fast, the front gate woud not opened. The person would have to go to the back of the city and go through a small narrow door basically just big enough for one person to get through. For a camel to fit through, the person would have to unload the camel and make the camel kneel and crawl while kneeling through the back door.

It is fine you said it is ok to be rich as long as you are still following God. But no one puts that into practice. Any one who is wealthy especially a pastor is almost automatically looked down upon because they are somehow automatically following the wealth instead of God.

What Simland posted are actually different views towards money and God. It seems everyone is saying something different about it. Yet no one seems to be able to pinpoint what the Bible is actually telling us. Given the views that were posted by Simland they go from one extreme of being poor to the other being wealthy. Then you have those who have to come up with an excuse to justify wealth.

When getting down to the nitty gritty, what does the Bible really say about all of this? A list of scriptures can be given to all the arguements. Some of those scriptures could be used for two or more of the arguements, such as the rich young ruler.

The rich young ruler can be argued for poverty, wealth as long as you follow God, wealth as long as you give most of it away.

The widows mite can be used for poverty, or wealth as long as you give most/all of it away.

Ask and ye shall recieve can be used to argue for wealth, and that God wants to give you what you want and desire.

God will supply all your needs according to his riches and glory. Taht can be argued for God will take care of only your needs.

Which is it? What is God really trying to say? How loving is God? Does he want us to suffer poverty? Does he want us to have only our needs met? Or does he want us to have an abundance?

I know these can be looked upon as being spiritual also, but lets stick to the issue Simland presented, which is about money.

One final question: when you come across a Christian website that looks like it would have a lot of good content on it, how would you precieve any ads such as google ads put on that site? Oh, just another Christian site being money grubbing trying to make another buck off of Christ's name. Or this is a good site, and I'll support the site by clicking on the ad. If you didn't know, google ad sense does pay per click and pay per impression. Or see ad, automatic back space. What business does a christian website have putting up ads in the first place. I used website, since we are discussing this on the web. This could also be partained to any Christian orgazination or event trying to make a little money for what ever reason.

Unfortunatly our biblical view of money really determines our responses to people, churches, and christian orginzations.

 

Redeemed again it is good to see your words again, I have missed our fellowship!!

 

Ok, TruckFam-- I will now put my 2cents in for what it is worth..

I in the same sense agree with Redeemed, let me explain.

When I posted the questions, which where PMed to me, I just added to it to make it more discussable.. By no means was I making a discission on the subject.. I wanted others to post so the person who sent it could see some diffrent thoughts on the matter..

Money is a root of all kinds of evil... What it boils down too is Idolatry, who is you God?
There is nothing wrong with having money, it is what is in your heart, thats the matter!!

Everyone has certain sins that get to them more than others, for Example: some men lean towards sexuality, and some women worring.. Some greed ie-mony. Some anger.etc,,, you understand?

If I where to love money more than God, then that would be Idolatry. and that is a sin unto death.. For I put it befor God.. But lets say I had money, and did not put it befor God, but rather use it for the futhering of the Gosphel, and to know at anytime, it could be gone.. You see it is what is in the heart that matters..

Where your heart is then there will be your treasure..
The scriptures in question, about the young rich man, it is simple, His heart was with his money. If it wasn't then he would have done what Jesus said, and picked up his cross and followed Him..

As for a preacher--- You are not to muzzle and ox, while it treads the corn. And those for God, who are true, desserve double honor. Therfor a good preacher of the word, is to recieve double honor.. and if he is a good and heartful preacher, this won't go to his head, and his love will be for God, and not the money...
Though it is sad that many fall into the catagory, of using the word for financial gain.. It is not true for all though..

I can vouch for Redeemed, his post was right on.. It might have been misread..

Money problems can cause many problems, I know I have them.. I find that I am much happier with relying on God for my day to day means.. At one time I had money, and I got so far in debt that I had to claim bankruptcy.. Now I have none, and when I do get some, I will never again put it before my God..


Hebrews 5:8
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.


Slimland

 

Thanks Slimland, you are correct. The question is not whether money is bad, it is where you place money in the importance in your life. Remember, the love of money is at the root of all evil.

If you go back to the story of the talents, it can be another example of how we should look at money. Do we use it for the Glory of God or do we bury it in the ground and hide it?

Money is one of those sticky topics. Some folks look at a vow of poverty as a way of being like Christ. There is nothing wrong with that and if the Spirit leads someone in that direction then that is what is right. But if God provides you with 10 talents, whether it is 10 sources of wealth or 10 things you are good at, do not let those talents become your God but instead use them to Glorify God.

Truckfam, thank you for explaning the eye of the needle thing. I did not know for sure what it refered to but in all honesty the first thing I did think about was a sewing needle. What you explained was vital to understanding the example Jesus used. It goes to show that we all need each other and can learn from each other. Hey, is that not another reason for us all to be in fellowship and meet together.

Your question about the website is a good one. Do I think there are some organizations that take advantage to just get money. Yes. But are there those who use the ads as a necessary source of income to maintain the ministry and spread the good news of Christ. Yes to that too. When I think of the dilema you describe I think about the fact that as Christians we should be harmless as doves....but as wise as serpents (I think that is how it goes, is it Slimland?). There are many who take advantage and we must watch out and steer clear of those.

 

Consede for now on the greed, and that it is what is in one's heart that is more important.

Why do you only feel you can rely on God for your day to day means? Why not rely on God to meet more than your day to day means?

Believing that God will only meet your needs can still keep one in poverty. Exactly what does one need? Do you believe God meets just the bare minimum, or that God will actually pull you out of where you are now and put you in a better place?

If God gives a family a small cramped trailer, he did meet the need of providing shelther. Yet meeting the bare minimum still keeps the family in poverty. Is that what God wants for the family, or is only willing to give the family? The bible says God is no respector of persons. Why would he only provide a trailer to one family that is too small for them, but provide a large spacious house to another family. Isn't that being a respector of persons, and playing favorites?

Or does it have nothing to do with what God wants and is willing to give you, but what your willing to have faith for?

What you are willing to have faith for depends on your view of what the Bible says about money and what God wants you to have. Thus my previous post.

 

I did not say anything about "only feel I can rely on God for my day to day means"
I said
There is a diffrence..
and I do rely on God for just more than that, but we where talking of Money, and the above is what make's me happy. Why fix something that is not broken..

There is nothing wrong with where I am at, I am content with what I have. I have no desire for wealth. Because In my case, that would be like a recovering alchoholic goin into a bar.. Even though I stated, I would never do it again IF I had money. The way to make sure, is to not put myself in that place..
Another example is-- If a person is married, and also attracted to someone else, and that someone else is also in both casses. The best thing for them to do, is stay away from circumstances, that could lead to Adultry..
Or someone who like pornagraphy, would stay away from it, for they know the power of the temptation and fall into it, if exposed!

Taken out of context,

God is no respector of persons, when it comes to sin..
As for the things of the world, God gives and God take's away, but we as humans have alot to do with that also..
When I got into all that debt, was that me or God? simple it was ME.
God let me make that choice.
If a man don't work, then according to the Word, Nor shall he eat. Given IMOP that he is not disabled, to a point of not being able to work.
What it boils down too is-- Be satisfied with what you have, then Maybe God will Help but clearly it is up to the individual..
I guess in a way the old saying God helps those who help themselvs comes into play. But having mercy on those who Can't!

This one is tricky,, Because in Corinthians, it is stated that God gives the mesure of Faith..
and Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and evidence of things not seen.

We cannot make God do anything, No matter how much faith we have.. Because the object of our Faith should be Him.. this calls to mind.
"seek first the kingdom of God, then the rest will be added unto you"
When do you find it? I don't know, but what I do know is to be content is every situation, that God gives. Paul said pretty much the same thing..

 

This is kinda touchy subject for me right now for personal reasons. But I will try to answer. Although Slimland has already given you a great response.

I try to rely on God to provide everything for me. Not just day to day means but everything I have. I believe that God will provide everything you need, as defined as bare minimum, and even over that as well. Now will God pick you up and put you in a better place.....that is difficult to answer. If you mean, as in your example, provide the means to move from a cramped trailer to a larger house....yes I do believe He can. But as Slimland explained, we have an input into what happens as well.

Let me use a little bit of your example and some of my own life experience to explain. For a few years growing up I was in a family of five living in a cramped trailer. I was not very happy living in those surroundings but there was a reason. Alcoholism was a problem with my parents and they let it affect every part of our family including the housing we could afford. They let alcohol become more important to them than anything else. In that instance, I do believe that God was providing for us in spite of their destructive behavior. As soon as my step-father left, and I got old enough to work and help my mom, things improved very quickly and we moved out of that cramped trailer into a larger house. During that time alcohol started to take a back seat in my mom's life and things changed for the better.

Can everyone in similar circumstances trace their lot in life back to some form of destructive behavior? Maybe so, maybe not. Can God have you in that circumstance for a reason? Yes, I think it is possible.

There is a Bible passage I just remembered that someone showed me one time. It may be relavent here.........Proverbs 30:7-9

7 "Two things I ask of you, O LORD;
do not refuse me before I die:

8 Keep falsehood and lies far from me;
give me neither poverty nor riches,
but give me only my daily bread.

9 Otherwise, I may have too much and disown you
and say, 'Who is the LORD ?'
Or I may become poor and steal,
and so dishonor the name of my God.

I guess in that passage it may say something we don't want to hear. Is it possible God's provision is just enough to take care of us but not enough for us to get too proud and think we can make it all on our own.

Overall, I believe it is a combination of what God wants, what we do with our life, and the faith we have in God to trust His decisions. And because of this everyone's situation will be different.