[geomon]

Fozzy...

geomon wrote:
Which brings me back to the statement that “it rained last night” and “ Hitler killed a million Jews” would mean the exact same thing…just statements of fact.

fozzy wrote
And you didn’t answer my conclusion to this asinine statement in the last post. So why should I comment on it again.

I had to go back to re-read your comment which is:

See the problem here is that this also points out the problem of religion in general. The rain has no will and will fall on us all and each drop will hit everything, the Jews were rounded up and killed because they were Jews. Why is this so confusing for the religiously blinded?

Fozzy...You'll need to explain the "problem of religion" better. This actually points out a key difference....for an atheist there is no difference in that statement because it really doesn't matter as we all just blow out like a candle at the end and...that's it. All civilizations achievements will come to absolutely nothing, silch in the end. Now religion (at least western religion) is the complete opposite...there is a HUGE difference in those two statements and Hitler is (as we speak and I believe) bearing the repercussions of his actions.

fozzy wrote:

I will die and it doesn’t matter, you’ll die, everyone dies… and it still doesn’t matter.To insinuate that people must have some religion forced on them to be able to evaluate their lives is rather insulting.

Well you have given me your world view. Because if you believe in a God then it truly does matter how you live your life. As you stated, it does not. So party on Garth....cause it doesn't matter.

You know, in the most basic ground floor of reasoning and logic.....
1) What if you're right and I'm wrong....doesn't matter does it cause we're just worm food in the end. No harm, no foul.
2) But what if I'm right and you're wrong? Now that decision bears everlasting consequences. And is sounds like you're prepared to take that risk.
Now I don't propose that anyone places a faith in God purely based on that rather weak argument....but is sure is a good place to start your're own personal journey.

[geomon]

Gator wrote:

geomon wrote:
......bio-chemical scientists are further away from finding out how life arose spontaneously today than they were 30 years ago........

Gator wrote:
Fair enough. But they are much, much closer than they were 2000 years ago when they had the perfect explanation and wrote it all up in the bible.

Gator…I respectively disagree. The further scientists get from finding a theory to explain the beginning of both life and the universe, the closer they are to matching the bible. Genesis and the Big Bang theory are actually in agreement with each other. And for those who say there could be millions of parallel universes and ours just got lucky with the right conditions for life (physical constants, amount of time, distance from center of our galazy etc) that just pushes the question back one level…where did those universes come from? And you can’t say they’ve been here forever…all scientific proof points to the big bang and a beginning to our universe. In fact, the latest data shows the universe is expanding outward with increasing velocity…pointing further to this was a one time occurance.

The bible and science are in agreement with each other on the creation of life as well. If God created all the physics (atomic force attraction, gravitational forces, the fact that water floats when frozen etc-etc-etc) and such natural forces as natural selection and those have all been marching along with us as the product…this agrees with both the bible and science.

[RebelDarlin]

The question was "do you believe in God". Yes, I do.

Religion however, is a whole other topic, as evidenced by the above "discussions". :roll:

[Fozzy]

Originally Posted by geomon

Fozzy...You'll need to explain the "problem of religion" better.

Not at all, it would be a complete waste of time as it has so far. I consider anyone who tries to compare in the same sentence a natural process. (precipitation) and a complete un-natural act, (the rounding up of human beings based on their lack of choosing the correct god or not, as borderline insane.

This actually points out a key difference....for an atheist there is no difference in that statement because it really doesn't matter as we all just blow out like a candle at the end and...that's it.

That's pure unadulterated Bovine scatology. To try and paint the atheist as uncaring if millions are slaughtered for their religious differences when another religion has done it throughout history and to this day, is just not sensible at any level. An "Atheist" (which I've pointed out several times that I am not) would care more about the killing in the name of religion than the religions that condone and carry out such things.

All civilizations achievements will come to absolutely nothing, silch in the end.

And in the end.. what does it matter?

Now religion (at least western religion) is the complete opposite...there is a HUGE difference in those two statements and Hitler is (as we speak and I believe) bearing the repercussions of his actions.

What a load! LOL!!! Western religion is no different than any other religion in its ignorance and viciousness to those who are not in line with their beliefs. Tell me what you mean by western religions.. and were does the "west" start on the globe?

Well you have given me your world view. Because if you believe in a God then it truly does matter how you live your life. As you stated, it does not. So party on Garth....cause it doesn't matter.

Where did I state that? While I have gotten used to supposed Christians coming on here and trying to put words in my (and everyone else's mouths and fabricate things that they want to be true like Religion equating to anyway a more moral and peaceful world. It's not been to often that some zealot comes here and states that because I do not believe that Jesus is the son of god means that I'm going to cheat on my wife, steal from my children and of course not give a damn that millions of humans were slaughtered because of their religion...

You know, in the most basic ground floor of reasoning and logic.....

Trying to interject logic and reasoning into a discussion about superstitions/religion is moronic on the face of it. Faith is the complete absence of reason and logic and or the complete dismissal of BOTH for the faith to work.

1) What if you're right and I'm wrong....doesn't matter does it cause we're just worm food in the end. No harm, no foul.

2) But what if I'm right and you're wrong? Now that decision bears everlasting consequences. And is sounds like you're prepared to take that risk.

This point is about as lame as most other silly canned arguments from the quasi-religious. What if the Islamic extremists are right? What if the Christians are wrong? This is the reason that there have been people slain since these various versions of god was invented.

Now I don't propose that anyone places a faith in God purely based on that rather weak argument....but is sure is a good place to start your're own personal journey.

You know nothing about what Journey I have been through to make that statement. Of course we do have a lot of human history and beyond the shadow of a doubt, everywhere on the globe that religion is practiced and grows, humans are slaughtered like they are nothing. To make that some statement that it is the Atheists or non religious who couldn't care less about the cold blooded murder of millions, why not ask the religious armies who are have have done the killings and feel they are doing so with the blessing of some god...

[geomon]

Dang….I relate in normal civil tones and am lamblasted as moronic, a zealot (which I am not in the least and whatever else). I must be hitting a nerve. And if you have stated your beliefs somewhere then I have not scrolled back to find them out. So why don't you state them again for me.

I consider anyone who tries to compare in the same sentence a natural process. (precipitation) and a complete un-natural act, (the rounding up of human beings based on their lack of choosing the correct god or not, as borderline insane.

You are missing the point by a country mile. The point being that those two statements mean the same thing...absolutely nothing. It's interesting that you interject morals (a faith based issue) into your argument. Against what law did Hitler violate by his acts? Now as many (including me) would say...there is a higher moral code that runs across all cultures and ages that is not of this world that is that inner voice that says " I aught not to do that". Once again....if there is no God and nothing beyond the curtain, then moral laws or any laws mean absolutely nothing. So what Hitler did was not wrong in that case, it simply happened. I will not belabor this point any more.

An "Atheist" (which I've pointed out several times that I am not) would care more about the killing in the name of religion than the religions that condone and carry out such things.

Of course atheists can act morally...and many lead what would be considered good lives.

Don't confuse my points on God and Jesus with the earthbound religions who have and continue to kill in the name of God....instead try to view different views based on the best of what they offer, not the worst. I would agree with you that the larger an organization becomes, the more it starts to exist simply for it's own sake. I have mentioned nothing about religous organizations in my comments.

Tell me what you mean by western religions.. and were does the "west" start on the globe?

There are three major world views that you by default must belong to one of (some argue that agnosticism is a world view but it is just fence sitting in my opinion). The three are:
Eastern...Hinduism, Buddhism, New Age etc. The common view is the dissapearance of self into an impersonal "oneness".
Western...the opposite of Eastern in which there is an infinite personal God. Christian, Judaism, Islam.
Secular...atheism, naturalism (nature annd only nature), nihilism etc. There is no God and life is as we see or can measure around us.

Where did I state that?

In your statement "I will die and it doesn’t matter, you’ll die, everyone dies… and it still doesn’t matter.". Did I miss something there Fozzy? Because if you believe in a God then it DOES matter.

But maybe I missed some earlier post before I stepped in where you stated that you believe in God and just like to argue....but lest I be labled a zealot (that still makes me chuckle) I will stand down and wait to read what you believe in...and why.

[BIG JEEP on 44's]

I had to re write my repy after realizing I incorrectly read the topic ,As I responded yes ,because I thought the topic was asking if I beleived in...COD...But then I read it again ,And Realized this was just a religious debate ...And now Im hungry for seafood thanks to the mis-read.

[Fozzy]

Dang….I relate in normal civil tones and am lamblasted as moronic, a zealot (which I am not in the least and whatever else).

Normal civil tones? So far your civility has insinuated that because I do not choose your version on an imaginary friend in the sky, that I see no difference in Hitler (a Catholic) murdering millions of innocent people (who happen to be a different religion), I see nothing wrong with cheating on my wife or stealing from my children and of course see no problem with killing people. THAT is what is moronic and it is THAT which makes you a zealot. Next, you'll be stating that the Teletubbies are some tool of Satan.

You are missing the point by a country mile. The point being that those two statements mean the same thing...absolutely nothing. It's interesting that you interject morals (a faith based issue) into your argument.

Look up the world morals and find the root, then get back with me on why that's comical. And only when some religious fool tries to get into the logic business are mass murder and precipitation the same. Right now the only similarity that you have is the lump of flesh you sit upon and the lump of flesh on the top of your shoulders.

Of course atheists can act morally...and many lead what would be considered good lives.

Why isn't that nice and condescending and elitist of you... I'm sure they feel the same way about you...

Don't confuse my points on God and Jesus with the earthbound religions who have and continue to kill in the name of God....instead try to view different views based on the best of what they offer, not the worst.

Well I guess Hitler did make the trains run on time... of course they were full of jews going one way and their possessions and earthy remains going the other.. GOOD POINT!

In your statement "I will die and it doesn’t matter, you’ll die, everyone dies… and it still doesn’t matter.". Did I miss something there Fozzy? Because if you believe in a God then it DOES matter.

Well, that's the crux of the conversation there Skippy, I do not believe in your version nor that life and death means a beginning and or end of something.. it doesn't. There are many people who believe many things who have been killed just because of that reason.. you know, like the rain last night.

[Slimland]

Well ---- I take it back-- Fozzy your not getting soft :lol: Just was getting warmed up? :lol:

Geoman-- You havn't been on here as long, so I will tell you. Yes according to my rememberance Fozzy does believe in something.. and I don't want to misquote and can not find the thread it is in.. But it is there somewhere :?

I am just going to watch,, I have already had these discussions with Fozzy and Gator.. Good Luck, and have fun. :lol:

[geomon]

So far your civility has insinuated that because I do not choose your version on an imaginary friend in the sky

So what DO you choose?

If you state that I'm insinuating that you don't differentiate between Hitler and rain....then I must assume that you are an atheist since that is the only world view that would support that. And the point, sparky, is that as an atheist....it does not matter what you do in this world because there is nothing to hold you responsible...no higher moral (yes moral) standard other than what you impose as your own personal god. As an atheist the world is as you want it to be and then it ends...poof. So yes, the fact that Hitler lived and did the atrocities that he did...to an atheist...should not matter. If it does...then why? That smacks of a moral law, that there is some "goodness standard" that Hitler is held up against...and if YOU believe that...whoo hoo, great for you. But the atheist next to you can have the opposite feeling and that is EQUALLY valid since there is no other standard to hold to. I cant seem to get that thru to you that (if you actually drilled down) atheism is an extremely tough way to live a life. So I doubt you are one and are just arguing for the sake of argument.

Now if you DO believe in God then we will have an entirely different discussion and probably agree on many points. I am still holding to the point of the difference between one who believes in a God and one who doesn't.

Look up the world morals and find the root, then get back with me on why that's comical

Why do you bring up the original latin root of a word in this discussion? It has nothing to do with the meaning of the word today. I choose to use it as it is used today...is that ok with you?

mor·al r-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mawr-uhl, mor-] Pronunciation Key -
–adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.

Fozzy wrote:

I do not believe in your version nor that life and death means a beginning and or end of something.. it doesn't.

That sounds like some sort of statement of belief....is it? So what do you believe in there Mr Fozzy?

[Slimland]

Here is a link first page,, gives a little insight.. But there was another but it is in cyberspace oblivion :lol: To bad too, it was good argument!

http://www.classadrivers.com/phpBB2/...asc&highlight=