[stonefly]

Originally Posted by LightsChromeHorsepower

Check this story out;

Regional pilots lack sleep, salary, experience

100K in debt for a 25K per year job?

CDL mills look wonderful in comparison.

I ain't gettin' on no airplane.

[stonefly]

Originally Posted by LightsChromeHorsepower

Yes they would. I have read a couple of excellent books on sleep research. Most people don't get enough.

No they wouldn't. My assessment is that "The most dangerous part of the mandatory eight hour sleep break is the part that counts blocks of bunk time shorter than eight hours as a driver's working hours." Simply stated, all of a driver's working hours are contained within the fourteen hour clock. An eight hour bunk break can extend the fourteen hour deadline, but it doesn't add any hours of work time to the fourteen hours. If a driver has to drive 11 hours of the 14, has spent time at a loading dock, fueling, doing a pre-trip, weighing, using a restroom, or eating, there is probably not going to be much left of 14 minus 11. The loading time alone could eat up most or all of the three hours. Therefore, any time a driver gets sleepy during his 11 hours, he'll be in a position where bunk time will use up his working hours. Effectively, he could spend needed time in the bunk, but that time will count against his 14 hours. Anybody who says that is not "bunk time being counted as work time" is playing a game of semantics.

I won't argue that there is no such thing as cumulative sleep deficit. However, regardless of any sleep studies done by anyone, we shouldn't overlook the point that a driver can become sleepy at any time. It can happen 1 hour into a shift after a 10 hour break. It would be amazing if a driver could get through 11 straight hours of driving without becoming sleepy. It can happen after a meal. It can happen because of many factors. Most importantly, it can happen to someone who has had plenty of sleep. In fact, it happens quite often. For most people, it is relatively inconsequential. When it happens to a driver, the driver must get off the road. Nothing else matters. The reasons for spontaneous sleepiness may never be understood, but for a driver, the only responsible course of action is to get off the road.

None of that has anything to do with sleep deficit. What is does relate to is the predicament where a driver is sleepy but cannot afford to lose whatever time remains from his 14 hours. It is a predicament where his common sense is at odds with the reality of a delivery requirement. It is a predicament where if the driver stops for a much needed nap, he will not be legal to meet a delivery requirement. If loading time has taken up the better part of the three hours left after 11 hours of driving are subtracted, then management of time on the part of the driver has nothing to do with the problem he faces.

Sleep studies have nothing to do with that predicament. Sleep studies are geared toward long term sleep deficit and irregular hours of sleep. The split sleeper berth provision that was removed from HOS regulations had little to do with quantity of sleep, and everything to do with timing of sleep. As far as regularity is concerned, over the road truck driving hours are not anywhere near 9 to 5. I for one, do not want a 9 to 5 job. If I did, I wouldn't want to be a truck driver. I wouldn't own a tractor and trailer. Trucking hours are as irregular as they ever were. The removal of the split sleeper berth provision did nothing to make the trucker's life one of regular hours.

Therefore, sleep studies have little to do with the split sleeper berth provision, except for the notion of eight continuous hours of sleep every night. That is a pie in the sky goal for most independent OTR truckers.

What about stress?

In the trucking business, the prospect of being forced to take eight hours of sleep when one does not want to, or physically cannot, sleep for eight hours, can be stressful to the point where more harm than good is accomplished. When I go to sleep, and wake up spontaneously, I don't want to go back to sleep. If I have part of my journey in front of me, I wanna go, not sit around twiddling my thumbs waiting for my eight hours to be up. The most important thing in the trucking business is to be able to get sleep when it is needed. The rules following the loss of the split sleeper berth provision make it difficult for a driver to get sleep when he needs sleep, and often mandate a driver to park his truck when he doesn't need sleep.

That is my assessment, and there are no sleep studies that have anything to do with it. Why? Because sleep studies are done under controlled circumstances, and the many factors involved in the life of a trucker are outside of those circumstances. No scientist would ever try and back up his work when he knew that factors outside of his control had tainted his experiments. Truckers are not laboratory specimens.

Originally Posted by LightsChromeHorsepower

And I think that weird sleep cycles and poor sleep quality still affect drivers in a major way. I know when I pull our tanker I'm at the mercy of our customers production schedule with random 8, 10 or 16 hour shifts. It gets my body confused by the end of the week. More than once I've slept in the parking lot after unloading even though I had the hours to get home legally. I got a horrible night of sleep in LA Friday, so I took a 3 hour nap coming home. The nap caused me to go over my 16, but I was awake & alert for the rest of the trip.

So you broke the law, like so many of us do, because you needed sleep. Then you completed the trip safely, but illegally. So much for the safety value of present HOS rules.

Originally Posted by LightsChromeHorsepower

I'm not crazy about the current HOS regs, but I can make them work. In Cali we get 12 & 16, not 11 & 14, that helps a lot. The problem is that they occasionally force one to lie and thus break the law, which gives the powers that be leverage over me because I've made myself a criminal. It's a common strategy, used by countless regimes over the course of history- make laws that the average citizen will break so you can place almost anyone under the thumb of power at almost any time.

Yes, I believe what you have just stated is exactly that which is presently happening in the land of the free and the home of the brave. Are you going to lie down for it or are you going to exercise your freedom of speech? This matter is quite a good opportunity for those who believe in freedom of speech.

Originally Posted by LightsChromeHorsepower

I'm not sure what I will do if we have to have EOBR's. It's a fairly common scenario dor me to run out of hours 45 minutes from home on an LA turn. What really sucks is that the closest place back on the route to get any services is Westley, which is over 2 hours. I'm not shutting down for 10 hours when I'm 45 minutes from home and I'm not shutting down 2 hours early because there's no parking or services available near where I will run out of hours.

The EOBR will be the snapping shut of the jaws. Once you have an EOBR in your truck, a cop only needs to take a quick peek and you're busted, busted for taking that nap.



I listen to drivers.

Once, years ago, I waited on line at a receiving window at a cold storage in McDonough, GA. There was a fellow there, a family man, and he was smoking one cigarette after another as he told his story, between drags. I think he was a Werner driver, or maybe it was some other outfit that had gone paperless. He told about a predicament where he was 15 minutes away from a drop, but was out of time. The guy was having a tough time explaining to us what they had done to him, because I think it hurt too much. They were either gonna fine the hell out of him for missing an appointment, if he stopped where he was, or they were going to fine the hell out of him for going over his driving time, if he went ahead and made the delivery. They let him make the choice. I forget what he said that he did. That wasn't the important part of the story.

No hard working family man truck driver in the United States of America should have to put up with anything like that. Yet, for sure, we'll have somebody say something like, "Well, the guy shoulda' managed his time better."

I don't know if you checked this out yet. There are a lot of comments, and we worked real hard to glean them from the comment period for the 11th hour driving and the 34 hour restart when they were asking for input from the public. There were many comments on the loss of the split sleeper berth provision although that was not specifically why the comment period was designated. What you see on that web page is just the tip of the ice berg. We couldn't get all the comments by any means because it was a lot of work, and we're only talking about the ones who commented. There are many drivers who want to see the return of the split sleeper berth provision who do not write in. (I wrote the intro, for the benefit of non-truckers who visit the site. If you want you can just go to the bottom of the page to read comments.)

If you believe like the drivers on this web site, write to your congressmen and senators. This is still the United States of America.



stonefly

[kc0iv]

stonefly,

There is still a split sleeper as defined by the "Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration." Now I'd be the first to say it isn't the same as the older rules, but it still exist.

Read your comments it becomes clear your complaint has nothing to do with sleep periods or rest times. What is coming through is you don't like the rules because you can't do it your way. The rules were changed because to many drivers were doing it their way and were not getting enough sleep.

You say: "Once you have an EOBR in your truck, a cop only needs to take a quick peek and you're busted, busted for taking that nap." You nor anyone else will ever get a ticket for taking a nap (assuming you are legally parked). Yes you might get one for extending your driving time but not for taking a nap.

I hope if you do write your congressmen and senators you make the time to properly describe your complaint.

kc0iv

[stonefly]

Originally Posted by kc0iv

stonefly,

There is still a split sleeper as defined by the "Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration." Now I'd be the first to say it isn't the same as the older rules, but it still exist.

Read your comments it becomes clear your complaint has nothing to do with sleep periods or rest times. What is coming through is you don't like the rules because you can't do it your way. The rules were changed because to many drivers were doing it their way and were not getting enough sleep.

You say: "Once you have an EOBR in your truck, a cop only needs to take a quick peek and you're busted, busted for taking that nap." You nor anyone else will ever get a ticket for taking a nap (assuming you are legally parked). Yes you might get one for extending your driving time but not for taking a nap.

I hope if you do write your congressmen and senators you make the time to properly describe your complaint.

kc0iv

You are wrong. There is no split sleeper berth provision. Eight hours of bunk time is mandated. That is the same length of bunk time that has been in required for over 70 years. Now, the eight hours cannot be split into two blocks as it could before. The eight hours must be taken all in one block.

The FMCSA can say 6 is 9 and you would believe it. You definitely are not the type of driver I am hoping to find on this forum, and definitely not the type of American I'm hoping to find. So you needn't respond any further. However, you can read this if you like, so that you can realize you don't know how to read. Then upon realizing your shortcoming, you may decide to take steps to improve yourself.

The complaint is that if a driver gets sleepy during a run and has spent enough time in activities like loading, unloading, fueling, eating, etc..., there does not remain enough time to take a break without the time going against the 14 hour clock. Is that clear enough? The driver will have to make a decision. Forgo rest or miss a delivery time. That is a situation in which a driver should not be placed. Read the comments on our web page. The comments are made by drivers in early 2008, with regard to the loss of the split sleeper berth provision on October 1st, 2005.

For two and a half years, all those drivers, and many more whose comments we didn't get to, have lived with the loss of the split sleeper berth provision. After two and a half years of it, they made their comments. Two and a half years is plenty of time for them to know what they're talking about. Maybe they are more eloquent and better written than I am.

You definitely need to be enlightened. You are in the dark and appear to like living in the dark. You need to wake up and see the light. As I said, you needn't feel that you should respond any further here. Just go to the website there it is...click the link. Read what many other drivers have to say and wake up. You are asleep.

You're right. The way I worded my last post would not be the way I would word a letter to my congressman. Congratulations on catching that, Mr. Good Eyeball. Are you as talented when you're awake?



stonefly

[Rev.Vassago]

Originally Posted by stonefly

The FMCSA can say 6 is 9 and you would believe it. You definitely are not the type of driver I am hoping to find on this forum, and definitely not the type of American I'm hoping to find. So you needn't respond any further. However, you can read this if you like, so that you can realize you don't know how to read. Then upon realizing your shortcoming, you may decide to take steps to improve yourself.

You have no say over who does or does not respond to your posts.

[Orangetxguy]

Originally Posted by stonefly

The complaint is that if a driver gets sleepy during a run and has spent enough time in activities like loading, unloading, fueling, eating, etc..., there does not remain enough time to take a break without the time going against the 14 hour clock. Is that clear enough? The driver will have to make a decision. Forgo rest or miss a delivery time. That is a situation in which a driver should not be placed. Read the comments on our web page. The comments are made by drivers in early 2008, with regard to the loss of the split sleeper berth provision on October 1st, 2005.

For two and a half years, all those drivers, and many more whose comments we didn't get to, have lived with the loss of the split sleeper berth provision. After two and a half years of it, they made their comments. Two and a half years is plenty of time for them to know what they're talking about. Maybe they are more eloquent and better written than I am.

You definitely need to be enlightened. You are in the dark and appear to like living in the dark. You need to wake up and see the light. As I said, you needn't feel that you should respond any further here. Just go to the website, there it is...click the link. Read what many other drivers have to say and wake up. You are asleep.

You're right. The way I worded my last post would not be the way I would word a letter to my congressman. Congratulations on catching that, Mr. Good Eyeball. Are you as talented when you're awake?



stonefly

First, Loading, Unloading, and fueling/Pre-trip/post-trip inspection, all are required "On duty" functions, and all eat into the 14 and 70 hour clocks.
The Carrier is responsible for dictating whether the driver is actively engaged in the loading or unloading process. If the Carrier requires the driver to be on-duty during those activities, then the driver must log "On-duty not driving". That eats away at both clocks.

As far as the driver having to decide whether to rest or not to rest, because of having used hours loading or unloading, and making his or her delivery on-time, the only driver that this decision bothers, is the driver whom has no common sense. Only the driver whom feels obligated to drive while sleepy does so. Yes....The Shipper and Consignee should manage their business, without depending on the free labor most driver's provide them, BUT that has been the trucking industry problem for 50 years. ONLY the Carrier's can solve that issue.

The decision to rest or not lays solely with the driver. A smart driver takes the needed nap, and log's the time the way it is worked.

The driver comments on that website are mostly complaints from drivers whom can not have it "their way". They most likely are driver's whom had a stop system setup, where by they could stop and see this "Honey" or that "Honey" at the various truck stops. I don't feel sorry for that type driver. Especially the married driver that chooses to play that game. Those type rarely actually sleep during those "rest" periods.

The HOS, as it stands is marginally better than the old 15 hour work day. I do not use the 11th driving hour, unless I am short of a safe place to park. I usually drive 9.5 to 10 hours, based on my appointment times.
Would I do so if I were pulling anything other than a tank? Yup. Pulled flatbed the first couple years of the 14 hour HOS rules. I managed to make the HOS work for me just fine, and I felt more rested and less "hassle" because of it.

KCOIV was right. No cop is going to "pop" a driver for taking a nap. He will however pop a driver for logbook falsification.
"Falsification" falls mostly on the shoulders of the driver. Condoning or encouraging log falsification falls on the shoulder of the Dispatcher, Carrier Management, the Shipper, and the Consignee. YES, all those can be held accountable for a driver falsifying a logbook, based on EOBR's, and paperwork provided to the driver. That accountment only happens, after a fatality or serious injury involved accident.

The reason so many shipper's do not put time stamps on paperwork, is so that truck drivers can falsify their logs. This is coming back to bite them.

[matcat]

Originally Posted by stonefly

You are wrong. There is no split sleeper berth provision.

No, YOU are wrong. You just refuse to look at the current split sleeper revision as a split sleeper revision!

[got mud?]

Originally Posted by stonefly

You are wrong.

stonefly

you keep talking about science etc in your posts, then you of all people should know that a species (drivers in this example) needs to adapt to its ever changing environment (the HOS in this case) or die off. failure to adapt will lead to extinction. there are many who have adapted (and even prospered) to the new HOS of service and would not give up the 34 hour restart for anything. its time to face facts. the old way is gone! adapt and over come!

as for the "I can function on 4 or 5 hours sleep" theory, countless test have proven that prolonged or repeated sleep deprivation has the same effect as alcohol. so your argument sounds like the drunk saying "I drive just fine with a few beers" when the test prove otherwise!

get some sleep driver. based on reading your argument I think you need it. your showing classic signs of sleep deprivation. muddled inconsistent thoughts. in ability to reason and moodiness.

[Rev.Vassago]

Originally Posted by got mud?

get some sleep driver. based on reading your argument I think you need it. your showing classic signs of sleep deprivation. muddled inconsistent thoughts. in ability to reason and moodiness.

:lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:

[stonefly]

Originally Posted by matcat

No, YOU are wrong. You just refuse to look at the current split sleeper revision as a split sleeper revision!

No, matcat, you are wrong. I refuse to recognize the current split sleeper revision as a split sleeper revision because it is not a split sleeper berth provision.

You have allowed your mind to become so soft that you will recognize what the feds require you to recognize, and nothing else.



stonefly