what you fail to realize is the way you two are looking at the regs is so black and white it would never work in the real world. according to you two, if i'm on my 34 hour restart and I start off in the sleeper I must stay there for the entire 34 hours because if I leave the sleeper I am now on or in a CMV and there for must log line four.

how many accidents where caused by a driver eating his lunch in the cab of his truck and logging it off duty? how many accidents where caused by a driver drinking a beer or two at the start of his break in his sleeper and then sleeping for 8 hours and then driving at the end of his ten hour break? (I for one do not partake in drinking while on the road, for one I don't need to and second most companies have a policy against alcohol on company property, trucks included)

I would also wager that NOT ONE of the infractions that mike has cited any driver or company for involved any of this!

you seem to be more concerned with the letter of the regulations than the actual problem. under your interpretation I could lay in my sleeper reading magazines and day dreaming for ten hours and never get any sleep. while perfectly legal and logged correctly not really that safe. or I could sleep 8 hours and spend the other two comming and going from the TS to get a shower etc. smoke a cig or eat my lunch while sitting in the drivers seat and be in violation, but a lot safer. I ask you, honestly which makes more sense to you? what do you think the FMSCA was trying to do when they made the regulations? was it to stop day cab drivers from being forced to sleep in there trucks by the company (or in some cases choice) or was it to punish OTR drivers and not allow them to sit in their seat and enjoy a cig or lunch?

 

GH:

Or, there's not evidence the carrier specified the specific time period you could log off-duty for lunch:

To answer your question in advance, if an investigator is on site and starts to examine outbound drivers for any written record and interviews multiple drivers to determine whether a written record was ever generated then the process is documented to support the case the carrier could not relieve the drivers from duty as there was never written instructions.

Seems to me GH you took that leap of faith some time ago... Does the link ring a bell?

http://www.classadrivers.com/forum/r...sa-expert.html

For more info scroll down to Illinois:

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/safety-secu...pecialists.htm

GM:

Perception.... It does have an impact on one's ability to listen to what the other person is saying.

Our discussion is in regard to day cabs and a driver's ability to log off-duty while sitting in the truck.... It cannot be done.

I've offered guidance on exactly how brief interruptions affect a driver’s off-duty status, what you've stated is not in my offering.

The question is how many drivers logged off-duty in a day cab and were unable to acquire the proper rest and went back to work still tired? You're missing the big picture. It has to do with the ability of the driver to acquire their rest how the regulations set the standards.

In most cases local drivers are on timecards and provided they complete their day within 12 consecutive hours no log is required. Provided the timecard identifies the time frame the driver used for lunch then the time on lunch does not count toward the 60/70 hour rule... Other wise all time spent clocked in counts toward the 60/70 hour clock.

The carrier was prosecuted for failing to have drivers make logs when the timecard (100 air-mile exception) driver failed to have the records as required:

http://ai.volpe.dot.gov/SafeStat/Saf...m=&PageN=EH#EH

The false logs were for occasions when the log was off by more than 50 miles or one hour from the supporting document used to verify the accuracy of the log.

That's because that's what is enforced.

It doesn't matter what makes sense, it matters what can be proven... The investigating officer can only use the documents to make the call as the officer did not withness what occurred.

IMHO the regualtions serve the designed purpose as they allow a driver to either sleep in the SB or exit the truck to obtain their rest. If the regulations allow a driver to rest in the cab then drivers sitting next to the driver while the vehicle is moving could log off-duty.

It's a matter of what the regulation allows and what can be proven. The regulations are written in broad transverse language that allows them to be applied to more situations. Whether the person standing in front of you agrees with the regulations is immaterial, the person in front of you has to enforce the regulation as written using the guidance and interpretations, otherwise there is no uniformity.

Please read my previous post again, I'm sure you'll see the rules are explained in detail.

Be safe.

 

Rev, I would appreciate it if you didn't try to interpret what I say or think for Mike. You don't do a very good job of it. I have never said that sleeper berth and off duty are one in the same. If you are in the sleeper berth, it is to be logged as sleeper berth. If you are off duty and not in the sleeper, it is logged as off duty. But, the regs clearly state that both "activities" are considered as off duty. We had this discussion before. If you'd like to find and quote it, you will once again see where I quoted the regs as referring to that part of being OFF duty that is logged in the sleeper. Therefore, when you are in the sleeper, you are indeed in an Off duty status. But, I never said that it doesn't matter which line you log it on.

As for the FMCSA NOT regulating off duty time, then does that mean I can log 6 hours off duty if I want? No? Well then, maybe that is because they DO regulate the amount of time one must be OFF duty before driving again. By definition this means they DO regulate off duty.

 

Myth_Buster said:

I was not referring to logging lunch. I was saying that while auditing my carrier in NC, you cannot tell where my butt was sitting when I logged 10 hours on line 1 in Wyoming. As usual, your response is non-responsive.

I had no such question in mind. Obviously, if the drivers all said they were never given any wriiten instructions for logging ENROUTE stops as off duty, there would be a problem. However, you cannot base anything on an "inspection" of outbound drivers for any written record, as there is no retention requirement for such either at the carrier OR on the truck or driver's person.

Um... no, it doesn't. I have no idea what you are talking about, and see nothing in that link that would give me a clue. I simply stated that, as I understand it, you are an auditor for the FMCSA and NOT an LEO with DOT certification that would allow you to cite me while on the road for a violation. Am I wrong? Do you troll through truckstops and check driver's logs and compare them to their physical location? Can you pull me over on the highway and check my logs?

Thanks for that info. I notice the heading that states you work in an office of the FMCSA. I did not see anything that stated you were an LEO for the DOT.

I contend that Sgt Brokaw, who IS a DOT LEO, disagrees with you.

Actually, the FMCSR's offered the guidance. And THEY referred to brief times when a driver is required to do "work" for the carrier. Sitting in your cab listening to music is not doing "work."

No, that's not really the question. From what I can tell, any "finite" period of time that a driver takes a lunch break or any break from driving is considered as being "restfull." But, if it is not 2 hours in duration, it is moot, because it won't count towards his off duty requirement anyway.

You forgot to add that the driver must dismount from his daycab during that lunchtime.... or so you believe.

What does this have to do with the discussion?

Again, nonresponsive. We all agree that supporting documents might prove that a driver was somewhere other than where he said he was when off duty. But, thanks for the inside info on how much I can fudge!

Exactly my point.

Well, you are confusing the issue again. First, please quote a reg that uses the words "exit the truck." Second, we are not talking about a MOVING truck... one that is IN OPERATION. Clearly there are regs that specifically identify this as a different scenario. However, I have read that this reg is being contested and is under review. If subpara (4) is so CLEARLY intended by the FMCSA, there would be no reason to even review this situation! They would have simply answered the contesting carriers with the same dogmatic response that you and the Rev keep giving. Fact is though, that a team co-driver, who is taking 10 hours off, can get sleep while in the sleeper AND still be getting "rest" while sitting next to the driver while smoking a cig or reading a book. And if they rule that is the case, then they can't possibly rule that a solo driver who is off duty can't get some measure of "rest" while sitting in the passenger area of his NON operational truck listening to music.

So, when the person standing in front of me (in a truckstop) wants to say I am falsifying my log by logging line 1 while relaxing in my passenger area, I will just show him the topic sentence of the "on duty reg" that states that on duty time is the time BETWEEN periods of being ROD, and he will just smile and walk away. My brakes will be set, and I cannot legally Operate or Drive the truck for 10 hours, so I am not performing any "safety sensitive" functions. I am not waiting to be dispatched, I am not servicing my truck, and I have been ROD by my company in accordance with the regulations stating that I must take 10 hours off duty after 11 hours of driving before I can be considered ON DUTY again. And while off duty, I am exercising my right to pursue activities of my own choosing by listening to some music and reading a book.

 

GH:

It is apparent you live for debate; however, tonight’s engagement will be brief. I’m not sure if it’s worth the effort so I may stick to the important key issues.

The Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA) is the agency within the US Department of Transportation (US DOT) responsible for overseeing truck transportation 49 CFR Parts §100 – 199 and §300-399. The FMCSA is the agency responsible for training Motor Carrier Safety Assistance (MCSAP) officers who are employed by state agencies performing vehicle inspections in-accordance-with the North American Standard Truck Inspection (NASTI) procedures.

Yes you are wrong, as an employee of the FMCSA you must submit to a roadside inspection per:

This is a federal regulation, when a state trooper pulls you over they are enforcing state laws.

http://ai.volpe.dot.gov/SafeStat/Car...sp?DOT=1708443

Is an example of a roadside I performed, look under the “Driver” or “Vehicle” tab and select “All Inspections.” Notice the inspecting state is “US’ not IN, IL, KY, etc.

http://ai.volpe.dot.gov/SafeStat/Veh...orm=&PageN=OOS

Same here 04/17/2008, inspecting state US.

As explained before I am a federal agent, I enforce federal regulations. Hopefully the puzzle is starting to make sense, the FMCSA is the agency for the US DOT that enforces trucking regulations, much like the Federal Railroad Administration is responsible for railroads and the Federal Aviation Administration is responsible for aircraft. Clear? The FMCSA is the US DOT in regard to trucks. Hence the dot.gov behind the www.fmcsa.dot.gov.

Sgt Brokaw is or was an employee of the state of Nebraska who was trained using MCSAP funds from the FMCSA. Sgt Brokaw is not an employee of the US DOT. I’m not even sure the Nebraska Highway Patrol is part of the Nebraska DOT.

Sgt Brokaw offered an interpretation published by the FMCSA to a situation without being specific of how it applied to your situation. Sgt Brokaw is not allowed to interpret the FMCSR, only the FMCSA may interpret their regulations. It is up to the reader to make an informed decision based on every relevant portion of the FMCSR, IOW, ignorance of the law is no excuse.

I will do this one last time and hopefully you will understand that Sgt Brokaw never implied the driver could log off-duty in the cab…

As stated in the interpretation the FMCSA (once the Office of Motor Carrier a sub component of the FHWA) only regulates sleeper berths. The FMCSA does not regulate hotels, truck stops, etc.

Because the CMV is a motor vehicle it is not a resting place…. Do you understand?

Without a log to record the actual activities all activities for a driver on a timecard are on-duty from the time the driver clocks in until the driver clocks out. If the timecard shows a time out and time in for lunch or breaks then the time for lunch and breaks is deducted from the 60/70 hour clock; otherwise all time from start to finish count toward the 60/70 hour clock for a timecard driver.

The point is when timecards are missing or inaccurate or the driver worked more than 12 consecutive hours, or the driver did not have 10 hours off between shifts or the driver did not record the start time, end time and total hours on-duty then the cite is no logs, not false timecards.
It helps some people better understand how the rules work.

The significant penalty should help people understand that fudging is not a practical way of doing business.

GH, I worry about you, it appears you don’t totally understand the consequences of your actions:

There are three levels of false logs:

1. Any variation, i.e. did not log fuel stop

2. Critical false logs, i.e. logged fuel stop at 1:00 PM when supporting documents indicated the driver fueled at 12:00 PM, or driver logged sleeper berth time in Chicago, IL when receipts placed the driver in Sugar Grove, IL.

3. Deliberate false logs, i.e. driver drove for 13 hours but only recorded 11 hours of driving time.

When drivers are caught falsifying their logs the company and driver face penalties. As mentioned every supporting document is used, toll receipts, fuel receipts, repair receipts, mileage is checked against a mapping program, etc, etc, etc. for 30 full days. The FMCSA only requires three falsifications in a month for the driver and carrier to loose. I can assure you that if your logs are checked and the FMCSA reported to the carrier that your false log rate 10% or more (3 of 30 checked) the carrier will say it’s your fault and offer to fire you to appease the FMCSA.

Ever wonder how that would appear on your DAC report and what sort of recommendation will be passed on to the next carrier? You loose.

Clear, “SHALL INCLUDE”.

Don’t know how to make it any clearer GH. There it is in black & white.

No the time spent in a cab of a CMV except for time in a sleeper berth is on-duty not driving. A CMV is not a resting facility. Clear?

Then the time counts toward the 14 and 60/70 hour rule. Any time in a CMV is either “Driving” or “On-Duty Not Driving.”

Or place you OOS for 10 hours, chances are depending on the severity you’d be placed OOS.

Says you:

Damn don’t you hate it when that happens, I can almost hear the “Well I didn’t know that.”

Fine, provided you’re in the sleeper berth or some where other than the CMV.

GH, I wish you luck. Keep in mind the roadside officer only looks at today’s and the seven previous days logs and spends perhaps an hour visiting you. Once the officer is done the officer may write a ticket. When a motor carrier is visited it maybe one day or one week or one month depending on the size of operation. When violations are discovered, the investigator copies all relative documents and prepares a Notice of Claim (NOC). The NOC has all of the supporting documents needed to prove the case. Like I said, 3 of 30 seals the deal and you’re toast.

I have more info but I doubt it would serve any purpose except waste bandwidth. So I decided to end the debate here.

Well guys and gals you all have fun. I’m off to DC, seems I’ve been awarded the Safety Investigator of the Year Award. I’ll be back on Sunday.

Be safe.

 

I couldn't agree with you more! ( take not rev, looks like your friends quote blows your theory of GH's spirit of the law out of the water)
the person has to enforce the broadly written transverse regulations, not the black and white one size fits all situations regs.

 

well actually that quote you answered was in reference to your comment about a ten hour break not being a break because I was only half in the sleeper. (feel free to reread the earlier post)

so actually what i stated was your offering.

so I ask you sir, how is my perception off?

 

You completely failed to answer a simple question. instead you confused the matter by bringing up something that had nothing to do with the question I asked. talk about perception!

 

Uh huh. Riiight. Got a link to that "clearly stated" regulation?

Nope. They regulate when you can drive, not when you can be off duty. Just because the off duty time affects when you can drive does not mean they are regulating the off duty time. If I want to take 6 hours off duty, I can. But the FMCSA is regulating my ON DUTY(driving) time based off it.

Wrong again. The DOT enforces the regulation AS WRITTEN, and the court interprets the regulation in relation to the alleged infraction. Black and white on the DOT's end, shades of gray on the court's end. So when it comes to the DOT, there is only black and white, and no spooky ghosts are required.

Now if you'd like to have a discussion of how courts interpret the laws as they are written, we can. But that is a completely different discussion, and is dependent upon many different factors, such as location, the judge presiding over the case, the prosecution, etc.

 

actually rev with a background in LEO training (Graduated Ohio Peace officer Training in '99 and two years as a commissioned reserve officer in a small dept. while not dot specific it still would apply) I would have to disagree with you on this. LEO are not trained to be black and white. their is a thing called discretion and it a large part of all LEO training. any officer has the ability to use his discretion when deciding whether or not to enforce a law or regulation. while departments and other LEO agency may adopt policies to encourage or limit the amount of discretion an officer may use in certain circumstances it still boils down to officer discretion.

I must admit that I do agree with you as far as the way the regulations are written they appear to be very clear in what is or is not allowed, how ever I also know that laws and regulations are interpreted and enforced differently than they are written. Laws and regulations have many checks and balances, including officer discretion. the very fact that and officer may decide whether to even initiate a stop and what and how he will handle any violations shows the many gray area's involved. (its the beauty and the beast of our judicial system)

so while you may be technically correct you are wrong when it comes to the big picture. its similar to the story of the three blind men, each standing at a different parts of an elephant trying to figure out what it is they are dealing with.

so while you and myth buster go on feeling up the elephants leg, swearing it is a tree we are dealing with. I, having looked at the entire beast at hand will stop trying to convince you otherwise.