[Rev.Vassago]

Originally Posted by golfhobo

If, you can "buy yourself a job" WHILE buying yourself a truck, then when the job ends, you still have the asset of a truck. Company drivers who lose a job, have no asset except their CDL.

At $0.85 - $0.90 per mile, the O/O will likely lose the truck, thereby destroying their credit.

Plus, at rates like that, the "asset" is going to be virtually worthless anyway. For the expense involved, if the only return on the investment is the money that the truck is worth, then it is a lousy investment to begin with.

Unless my company job pays me enough extra in, say 3 years, to have the capital to buy a truck, then I was working for LESS than the guy who "bought a truck" and cleared only company driver's wages. The difference is the truck, and what one can do with it.

I would go so far as to say, one is not "buying a job" in this case as much as one is "buying a truck" with the promise of a job to afford the payments. This may not be optimal for some people, but for those of us who might not have the credit or assets to buy a truck outright, it serves a purpose.

What you are failing to take into account is that there is a lot more work involved with running a business as opposed to being an employee. If someone is earning the same as an employee, then they are doing that extra work for free.

[golfhobo]

Rev.Vassago said:

At $0.85 - $0.90 per mile, the O/O will likely lose the truck, thereby destroying their credit.

Well, no one but YOU quoted those figures. I SAID you were mostly right in principle. I will not, and cannot, get into discussing "figures," as I am not an O/O. Never claimed to be. Obviously, losing the truck was not a part of my post/scenario.

Plus, at rates like that, the "asset" is going to be virtually worthless anyway. For the expense involved, if the only return on the investment is the money that the truck is worth, then it is a lousy investment to begin with.

Again, what I said about the rates. However, if the "return' on the investment at the end of 3 years (an arbitrary term) IS the value and ownership of the truck, then I disagree. Now, is that less money (or value) than you could make in the stock market for the difference? I don't know. But, as a company driver, NOT getting the increased rates, you probably won't have enough to invest anyway.

What I know is this. Unlike many "job hoppers," I spent my first 3 years at one company, and barely paid my bills. When they closed their doors, I had only a CDL. If I could have received a percentage of the load for those 3 years that would have PAID for the truck and ALL expenses, AND the money I brought home as a company driver, I would have been ahead of the game this past July. I would have owned a TRUCK.

I don't know WHAT that "per mile" rate would have been. Let's assume an 03 Columbia or Century (starting in 2005,) and YOU do the math. What rate would have paid me 35k a year AND bought the truck? Would it be possible?

What you are failing to take into account is that there is a lot more work involved with running a business as opposed to being an employee. If someone is earning the same as an employee, then they are doing that extra work for free.

Now you sound like the "local wusses" that whine about not being paid for sleeping and farting. :lol:

I owned my own business for 10 years, and I would not DARE to include the hours I spent after work trying to make it profitable. It is called "owner equity" Rev, and it is an investment in one's future.

I have done both, and the fact that you think I have NO IDEA how much simpler it is to be an "employee" as opposed to an owner, is insulting... but consistent with your delusion that only YOU know anything about such things.

I greatly appreciate all the knowledge and tips I have read over the years on this board that have, in part, kept me from making the mistake of many who jump into ownership without the requisite understanding of rates and expenses, and the other pitfalls.... and I wish there were a sticky posting CURRENT rates that would ensure success for those who want to go that route. But, to say that a "feasible" scenario where one "buys a job" while paying off the asset of a truck, is somehow (and always) a recipe for failure, is just wrong.... and flies in the face of the reality of those of you who have done so. (and ignores the asset of the truck!)

Are you suggesting that only the "privileged class" who can afford to buy a truck outright before leasing it onto a company have the right or expectation of success?

I believe there are a few on here that would dispell that misconception.

[Rev.Vassago]

Originally Posted by golfhobo

I don't know WHAT that "per mile" rate would have been. Let's assume an 03 Columbia or Century (starting in 2005,) and YOU do the math. What rate would have paid me 35k a year AND bought the truck? Would it be possible?

Back then? $1.50 per mile minimum.

I owned my own business for 10 years, and I would not DARE to include the hours I spent after work trying to make it profitable. It is called "owner equity" Rev, and it is an investment in one's future.

Yes, but when that investment isn't reaping a benefit that is greater than being a company driver, then it is a futile exercise, and is "buying a job".

I have done both, and the fact that you think I have NO IDEA how much simpler it is to be an "employee" as opposed to an owner, is insulting... but consistent with your delusion that only YOU know anything about such things.

I'm sorry.....where did I say that again???

But, to say that a "feasible" scenario where one "buys a job" while paying off the asset of a truck, is somehow (and always) a recipe for failure, is just wrong.... and flies in the face of the reality of those of you who have done so. (and ignores the asset of the truck!)

Are you suggesting that only the "privileged class" who can afford to buy a truck outright before leasing it onto a company have the right or expectation of success?

Absolutely not. What you seem to be misunderstanding is that it has less to do with the idea of being an O/O, and more to do with the idea of working for a company that is paying substandard rates. When the actual cost to operate a truck is between $1.50 - $1.75 per mile (with wages included), and these companies are only paying $0.90 per mile plus FSC, then guess where the difference comes from........

Needless to say, I've done the math. To operate at or above a company driver's wages at one of these type of companies, you would have to run an excessive amount of miles per year, thereby further reducing the equity that you have in the piece of equipment used to operate the business.

That's why I would rather run 70,000 miles per year for $2.00 per mile than 135,000 miles per year for $1.25 per mile. Not only is my equipment going to last longer, but I'm going to be less stressed, and I'll end up making a little more in the process.

[GMAN]

Unless you can earn more money owning a truck than being a company driver you are usually better off staying a company driver. Golfhobo is right about having an asset once it is paid off, but keep in mind that you are talking about a rapidly depreciating asset with trucks. If you purchase a newer truck or some brands they will have little value once they are paid off. That is one reason I prefer buying cheaper trucks. There is less to depreciate. But that is another thread. The only problem with only having driver wages after expenses is that it is simply not worth all the aggravation. When you own a truck there is usually something to do to keep it up. You either fix things yourself or pay a mechanic. There are many repairs and adjustments that can be done yourself rather than pay a mechanic as much as $100+/hr to do it for you.

Rev is right about the rates. You absolutely MUST have decent rates to run a truck. Running at or just over $1/mile simply won't cut it. Even if you manage to get by running cheap freight you won't be able to put enough money aside to make those inevitable major repairs when they occur. Things can happen very quickly. It seems to me that major breakdowns always happen at the wrong time.

[golfhobo]

Rev.Vassago said:

Back then? $1.50 per mile minimum.

Now we're talking REAL information. Note the O.P. NEVER quoted a rate that he had been offered. YOU came up with the substandard rate on which you based your arguement.

Yes, but when that investment isn't reaping a benefit that is greater than being a company driver, then it is a futile exercise, and is "buying a job".

I believe my post indicated the scenario of earning a rate that would "realize" the investment in the truck and pay the wages comparable to a company driver. The investment of extra time and aggravation was the investment in the truck/asset. In fact, IF the rate was not enough to keep the investment from exceeding the income of a company driver, he would not only be "buying a job," he'd be buying DEBT.

I'm sorry.....where did I say that again???

What you are failing to take into account is that there is a lot more work involved with running a business as opposed to being an employee.

That is pretty much an indictment of my "accounting" for the requirements of "running a business" as opposed to working for someone else. Since I was "running a business" before you ever got out of diapers, I took (and take) offense. I was first "self-employed" (with two businesses) at the age of 13 in 1969. [Were you born yet?] I owned three businesses in 1980 when I got out of the military. (About the time you discovered you had a peepee.) I started my last venture at the age of 33, in 1989 which ran for 10 years. And you think you can "school" me in the requirements and RISK of proprietorship because you own a TRUCK?

Why don't you go ahead and throw in an indictment of my political acumen since you surely can top my 8 years in the intelligence business? Like "YOU" ever read or contributed to the President's daily INTEL briefing!

Absolutely not. What you seem to be misunderstanding is that it has less to do with the idea of being an O/O, and more to do with the idea of working for a company that is paying substandard rates. When the actual cost to operate a truck is between $1.50 - $1.75 per mile (with wages included), and these companies are only paying $0.90 per mile plus FSC, then guess where the difference comes from........

Good info! But, show me where the O.P. mentioned working for one of these "fleece option" companies.

Needless to say, I've done the math.

And I have NEVER questioned that you DID....even if you DID have to take off your shoes to do the counting.

To operate at or above a company driver's wages at one of these type of companies, you would have to run an excessive amount of miles per year, thereby further reducing the equity that you have in the piece of equipment used to operate the business.

What "type" of company did the O.P. (or me) mention? How about a fiscal analysis of the difference between buying an older truck (knowing it was ready for an engine rebuild) versus the increased monthly payments on a newer truck? The truck I mentioned, from my company, with 3 years on it would have had about 750k miles on it. Had he stayed in business, how much would I need (and how soon) for a rebuild? How CHEAP should that truck have been? Should I have bought a truck from a "solar driver" like you instead? It would have less miles, but cost me more.

That's why I would rather run 70,000 miles per year for $2.00 per mile than 135,000 miles per year for $1.25 per mile. Not only is my equipment going to last longer, but I'm going to be less stressed, and I'll end up making a little more in the process.

That's good info, too! Now, break that down for the noobies! Tell us how to GET $2/mile. Or what would be the first to "go" (or need to be scrimped on) if we could only get $1.25/mile and HAVE to drive 135k miles a year. What type of companies/industries would offer one or the other. give us some INFO dammit! And SAVE your condescending attitude!

Don't know why I'm even asking you. You spent most of your career in HHG, didn't you? "What you fail to realize" is that that is a niche in the industry, and not representative of the reality MOST of this board are engaged in. :rofl:

I'm not an O/O, but MOST of them I have met don't have the luxury of sitting around playing on CAD and wondering how to burn down their trucks with a makeshift generator, or how to cook Chinese dumplings on their "off duty" hours! If it really IS that easy, tell us so we can ALL go out and buy our own truck!

Your are a valuable asset to this board, Rev! An Icon of your own designation. I have never disagreed with that. But, now you have grown up into a Mod. The "extra" time you spend without pay will now be of value to you (I hope) only if it repays your efforts in personal satisfaction in making this the best board on the web for trucking info. If not....then why not be a "company" poster?

[Fredog]

Originally Posted by Creek Jackson

Hey Fredog! Haven't heard much, how is your new truck working out?

pretty good so far, had to buy one steering tire and that's the only trouble I have had, been grossing 5 to 6 thousand a week for 2500- 3000 miles , so it could be a lot worse. we picked up some new business that pays really well.we got one run from Alma Ga to Indiana, it's 725 miles and pays 1400 plus fuel, then I reload at the same place for a few different places, so with no deadhead,that's a pretty darn good rate I think

[Rev.Vassago]

Originally Posted by golfhobo

Now we're talking REAL information. Note the O.P. NEVER quoted a rate that he had been offered. YOU came up with the substandard rate on which you based your arguement.

I'd suggest you re-read what I originally posted. I even prefaced it by stating very clearly that it didn't apply to all situations. That "substandard rate", however, is one offered by many companies out there.

In fact, IF the rate was not enough to keep the investment from exceeding the income of a company driver, he would not only be "buying a job," he'd be buying DEBT.

Which, again, is what my entire point was all along. To be buying a job, it would indicate that it is costing something. Not only is it costing time, hassles, stress, and aggravation, but it could also be costing a lot more than that.

That is pretty much an indictment of my "accounting" for the requirements of "running a business" as opposed to working for someone else.

Nope - it was an indictment of your statement. Nothing more. If you want to read more into it and make it personal, that's not my problem. I would think that by now you would know my mantra: attack the post, not the poster.

What "type" of company did the O.P. (or me) mention? How about a fiscal analysis of the difference between buying an older truck (knowing it was ready for an engine rebuild) versus the increased monthly payments on a newer truck? The truck I mentioned, from my company, with 3 years on it would have had about 750k miles on it. Had he stayed in business, how much would I need (and how soon) for a rebuild? How CHEAP should that truck have been? Should I have bought a truck from a "solar driver" like you instead? It would have less miles, but cost me more.

Wow....you are reading a whole lot more into what I originally said, and what you originally attacked. I think I made it very clear exactly what I was talking about, as soon as someone asked for clarification. It would appear, however, that you failed to understand what it was.

That's good info, too! Now, break that down for the noobies! Tell us how to GET $2/mile. Or what would be the first to "go" (or need to be scrimped on) if we could only get $1.25/mile and HAVE to drive 135k miles a year. What type of companies/industries would offer one or the other. give us some INFO dammit!

Why on earth would I want to do that? Nobody showed me where to go to get good paying freight. I found it on my own.

Don't know why I'm even asking you. You spent most of your career in HHG, didn't you?

Nope. About four years total out of the twelve I've been doing this.

What you fail to realizeis that that is a niche in the industry, and not representative of the reality MOST of this board are engaged in.

Your point?

I'm not an O/O, but MOST of them I have met don't have the luxury of sitting around playing on CAD and wondering how to burn down their trucks with a makeshift generator, or how to cook Chinese dumplings on their "off duty" hours! If it really IS that easy, tell us so we can ALL go out and buy our own truck!

I've never at any point even pretended it was easy. I'm not Steve Booth, and I'm not a hobby trucker.

[Creek Jackson]

Originally Posted by Fredog

pretty good so far, had to buy one steering tire and that's the only trouble I have had, been grossing 5 to 6 thousand a week for 2500- 3000 miles , so it could be a lot worse. we picked up some new business that pays really well.we got one run from Alma Ga to Indiana, it's 725 miles and pays 1400 plus fuel, then I reload at the same place for a few different places, so with no deadhead,that's a pretty darn good rate I think

Sounds like you found a pretty good "niche" there, Fredog. Glad it is going well.