[Snowman7]

Originally Posted by got mud?

unions are a lot of the problem with things today.

Yeah like Jimmy Hoffa Jr started the war in Iraq, doubled the price of fuel in 3 years, and cleared the way for NAFTA. You dont think corrupt business and political leaders are a lot of the problems? Its all about corporate greed. They look out for themselves not you.

Originally Posted by got mud?

the job should go to the person that does it the best. not the guy that hangs out doing just enough to get by the longest.

Welcome to fantasy island. I'll bet you wouldn't say that if you worked there. Most local jobs all operate based on seniority, union and non union both.

My point is unions are not the problem with things today. Whether you are union or not trust me when I say your employer doesnt give a :dung: if you live or die, eat or starve. They're in it for themselves, as they should be. And I'm in it for myself, not them. Yes I am a teamster and I dont agree with everything they stand for but they do more good than harm. They make the company follow the rules and not crap all over us by changing policy whenever they feel like. If corporate America always did the right thing there would be no need for unions. Its all about balance, give and take. Unions even the playing field, and yes, sometimes they get out of hand. But how is that any worse than a non union company like Conway who terminated their pension plan 2 years ago. There wasn't a thing the drivers could do about it. The pension may have been a deciding factor to work there and after x amount of years the company just changed their mind. A union may not have stopped them but it would have at least fought them, given the worker a voice. It would have made Conway think twice knowing they had a fight on their hands. You cant blame the problems of the world on unions. Blame it on good old fashioned greed.

[stormothecentury]

Originally Posted by Snowman7

If corporate America always did the right thing there would be no need for unions.

Quoted for emphasis. That's literally my favorite thing to say about unions.

[Skywalker]

Snowman 7 is correct. The problem is not because of the unions.... Wealthy investors and business owners truly, truly don't give a damn about you....its all about their "bottom line"...after all is said and done, whatever they pay out to the workers means that much less return to management as bonuses or returns to investors.

Yes Billy, Bobby and Sue....Big Business does care about you.... :P

[got mud?]

Originally Posted by stormothecentury

Quoted for emphasis. That's literally my favorite thing to say about unions.

war and such because of unions? thats not what I was trying to say. Unions are business unto themselves. do you think they really care about you? no all they care about is your dues. they will fight a company to try to get you what you want but in the end what happens when the company can't afford what you want. they close the doors and go where they can afford it. why do you think the auto industry has so many problems? its not because cars don't sell its because they have to pay some guy 30 dollars an hour to push a broom and give him a pension.

just remember next time your broke, out of work and standing in a picket line and watch a company close up, how much your union cares about you. "gee guys we tried, damn cooperate America, better luck next time! oh by the way thanks for all your dues i'm going home to eat steak and drink and figure out were people need a union next" (obviously a little dramatic but you get the point)

if you don't like your job you don't like the pay go somewhere else. no opportunity's then move get an education, do something. why does everyone expect someone else to fix there problems and their life?

[scania]

Originally Posted by got mud?

war and such because of unions? thats not what I was trying to say. Unions are business unto themselves. do you think they really care about you? no all they care about is your dues. they will fight a company to try to get you what you want but in the end what happens when the company can't afford what you want. they close the doors and go where they can afford it. why do you think the auto industry has so many problems? its not because cars don't sell its because they have to pay some guy 30 dollars an hour to push a broom and give him a pension.

just remember next time your broke, out of work and standing in a picket line and watch a company close up, how much your union cares about you. "gee guys we tried, damn cooperate America, better luck next time! oh by the way thanks for all your dues i'm going home to eat steak and drink and figure out were people need a union next" (obviously a little dramatic but you get the point)

if you don't like your job you don't like the pay go somewhere else. no opportunity's then move get an education, do something. why does everyone expect someone else to fix there problems and their life?

See thats what's really the problem here is ignorance for one thing we have a contract coming up with our company we get a 2% raise every year while our CEO got 20% last year and all we want to fight for in our contract is our insurance we have our own clinic and our own doctor so we're self insured,you don't think health care for your family is worth fighting for and somehwat of a pension?

PS we don't make $30 p/h there.

[Snowman7]

Originally Posted by got mud?

war and such because of unions? thats not what I was trying to say. Unions are business unto themselves. do you think they really care about you? no all they care about is your dues. they will fight a company to try to get you what you want but in the end what happens when the company can't afford what you want. they close the doors and go where they can afford it. why do you think the auto industry has so many problems? its not because cars don't sell its because they have to pay some guy 30 dollars an hour to push a broom and give him a pension.

just remember next time your broke, out of work and standing in a picket line and watch a company close up, how much your union cares about you. "gee guys we tried, damn cooperate America, better luck next time! oh by the way thanks for all your dues i'm going home to eat steak and drink and figure out were people need a union next" (obviously a little dramatic but you get the point)

if you don't like your job you don't like the pay go somewhere else. no opportunity's then move get an education, do something. why does everyone expect someone else to fix there problems and their life?

You really are clueless. That same stuff happens at all types of companies union or not. I agree where the auto industry is concerned but that started years ago. The big 3 made so much money in the post war years that management and labor were both arrogant and thought they were untouchable, especially Ford and GM. Until the imports came along.

Yeah blame it all on unions. Don't blame the corrupt politicians and CEO's (Enron, World Com) of this world that screwed innocent employee's. But it's actually way more complex than you and I can grasp. Corporations want the most bang for the buck. It's only natural. That means the cheapest labor they can get. Our nation's high wages made us big consumers. As consumers we also want the biggest bang for the buck. Again, only natural. That means buying from the guy with the lowest price. Alot of times that means foriegn competition. We are part of our own problem. Well you can't have high wages if no one buys your goods. The internet, communication, technology and improved transportation have turned us into a global economy where the cheapest labor wins. But dont worry as the scales tip toward overseas economies we will soon be the cheap labor and they will want to buy our stuff.

As for me I've never in my life been broke or without a job. Until recently I never had a union job. It was voted in and the law in Ohio says if I want to work in a union shop I have to join the union. So I really had little choice. I enjoy the union's benefits but we were non union when I got hired and it was a good job then and still is now. If it wasn't I'd be gone yesterday. I know how to take care of myself.

It seems most people who bash a union either feel they were screwed by one (which maybe they were) or they never worked in one and in alot of cases are just jealous. Unions aren't perfect but tell me what is. Saying all unions are bad is like me saying all OTR companies are a notch above slave labor. Neither statement is completely true.

Check the skyrocketing salaries of America's top exec's and you'll get sick to your stomach.

[Jumbo]

My trainer used to work for a union food service company. Worked 10p.m. to 6 a.m. 4 days a week making $80,000 a year. That was till he came to work and the gates were chained shut. Company closed down because they couldn't afford to stay in business. Was he mad? No. He told me he and his wife saved as much money as they could because he knew that job wouldn't last forever.

[got mud?]

Originally Posted by Snowman7

You really are clueless. That same stuff happens at all types of companies union or not. I agree where the auto industry is concerned but that started years ago. The big 3 made so much money in the post war years that management and labor were both arrogant and thought they were untouchable, especially Ford and GM. Until the imports came along.

Yeah blame it all on unions. Don't blame the corrupt politicians and CEO's (Enron, World Com) of this world that screwed innocent employee's. But it's actually way more complex than you and I can grasp. Corporations want the most bang for the buck. It's only natural. That means the cheapest labor they can get. Our nation's high wages made us big consumers. As consumers we also want the biggest bang for the buck. Again, only natural. That means buying from the guy with the lowest price. Alot of times that means foriegn competition. We are part of our own problem. Well you can't have high wages if no one buys your goods. The internet, communication, technology and improved transportation have turned us into a global economy where the cheapest labor wins. But dont worry as the scales tip toward overseas economies we will soon be the cheap labor and they will want to buy our stuff.

As for me I've never in my life been broke or without a job. Until recently I never had a union job. It was voted in and the law in Ohio says if I want to work in a union shop I have to join the union. So I really had little choice. I enjoy the union's benefits but we were non union when I got hired and it was a good job then and still is now. If it wasn't I'd be gone yesterday. I know how to take care of myself.

It seems most people who bash a union either feel they were screwed by one (which maybe they were) or they never worked in one and in alot of cases are just jealous. Unions aren't perfect but tell me what is. Saying all unions are bad is like me saying all OTR companies are a notch above slave labor. Neither statement is completely true.

Check the skyrocketing salaries of America's top exec's and you'll get sick to your stomach.

I agree whole heartily that cooperate greed is a huge problem and yes salaries are out of check for the top people. It is sick that the top 10% of a company make over 50% of the salaries and the people that actually work make peanuts. but I honestly don't think unions are the answer. I am anti union because I was a manager in an industry that had unions. I watched them promise people the world knowing that they couldn't force the company to do anything. I watched good hard working people get bumped from the job they deserved only because someone who had been there longer wanted it. I believe performance based systems are better than seniority based systems for everyone involved and I believe this is one fault of most unions.

[Snowman7]

Originally Posted by got mud?

I agree whole heartily that cooperate greed is a huge problem and yes salaries are out of check for the top people. It is sick that the top 10% of a company make over 50% of the salaries and the people that actually work make peanuts. but I honestly don't think unions are the answer. I am anti union because I was a manager in an industry that had unions. I watched them promise people the world knowing that they couldn't force the company to do anything. I watched good hard working people get bumped from the job they deserved only because someone who had been there longer wanted it. I believe performance based systems are better than seniority based systems for everyone involved and I believe this is one fault of most unions.

Things like market conditions, smart management, and competition have more to do with the success of a company than a union. I'll agree stubborn unions can be a contributing factor. The good thing about a contract is the company cant make changes whenever they feel like it. The bad thing about a contract is the company cant make changes when they have to. As far as seniority goes I could maybe see your point in a different industry but driving is driving for the most part. If you know how then you know how. Most local outfits honor seniority when choosing runs. Most managers like it that way, its cut and dry. They have enough babysitting to do and whining to listen to then worry about who got what run. Without preference to seniority you may see some reward for performance but mostly it ends up being more favoritism which leads to other problems. Personally I dont care either way. I do my job because I enjoy it and I feel I'm fairly compensated. If I didn't like it then like you said, I would find another one. I've quit higher paying jobs then this because I hated it.

[TimberWolf]

snowman wrote:
As for me I've never in my life been broke or without a job. Until recently I never had a union job. It was voted in and the law in Ohio says if I want to work in a union shop I have to join the union. So I really had little choice. I enjoy the union's benefits but we were non union when I got hired and it was a good job then and still is now. If it wasn't I'd be gone yesterday. I know how to take care of myself.

It seems most people who bash a union either feel they were screwed by one (which maybe they were) or they never worked in one and in alot of cases are just jealous. Unions aren't perfect but tell me what is. Saying all unions are bad is like me saying all OTR companies are a notch above slave labor. Neither statement is completely true.


Snowman I agree with you completley, as my wife always states we are not poor just broke, we always seem to find work and keep going with the demands of daily life it is something we just do. I did it as a chef and now I do it as a local driver. I started at UPS Freight before the union came in and it was also a good paying job still is. The bosses here in Orlando are a litlle flaky but that can happen anywhere. The union started to come around and yes I was a little skeptical but the one thing my father taught me was to listen to all sides of the story and then form my own opinion. One guy here in Orlando is so anti union that he makes himself look like a fool talking against them the worst part about his rant is that it is so uneducated and uniformed he comes across as the village idiot (Clueless)
The President of Local 385 here in Orlando did not sugarcoat this contract, he never once blew smoke up our butts, and he never promised us a rose garden. What he did do was to state that it would be a contract that had good points and bad points, he told us that right now with out all of UPS to back us we could only get so much but that in 2013 we would be over 200,000 strong and then we would get a great contract. A smart enough person will be able to see that this is not a garantee but more of a wish as in 2013 UPS may just drop all unions and create a lockout who knows it could happen, if the NHL can withstand it what makes a person think UPS cant plan for it.
My opinion on unions is so flat lined as Florida is a right to work state not like Snowman's Ohio we have guys in our barn that have joined and or paying dues with the protection and then there are guys who did not join but will still reap the benefits that we are getting. The only difference is that if we joined now the teamsters waived our intiation fees and the building fees, after 90 days if you join you will pay the full amount of these cost ( about $200 in Central Florida give or take)
This is life folks everywhere you turn there is good and bad, the bad takes to much energy to deal with so f it. The good is everything that lives within the 4 walls of my home that is what I choose to focus my energy on. I can find a job at anytime and most anywhere it may not pay me the riches that UPS Frieght is but it is a paycheck none the less...

Timberwolf