Pistol In commercial vehicle

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  #61  
Old 02-20-2008, 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Karnajj
Originally Posted by kc0iv
Originally Posted by ICS
It is not a matter of need or want. The main difference between the views of gun owner and a non gun owner are simple. the main being knowledge. I am a gun owner and agree with the constitution that it is a god given right. The 2nd amendment states to protect the right to bare arms. it doesn't state "to grant the right" this means that the right for man to have guns was established well before our country was even formed. (this has recently been backed up in a court of law) I will carry a wrench on my truck in case my brakes need adjusting. I will carry an air gage just in case to check my tire pressure and I would carry a gun just in case i would need it. To many gun owners it is nothing more than a tool with a specific purpose. it isn't some magical contraption that spits out death randomly. There are very few instances when a crime was committed by a person who legally owns a handgun. The laws are in place to limit such things from happening. Just recently every retired or active police officer was given permission to carry concealed by federal law. I be leave at some point that same permission will be given to this country's citizens. as it should.
Having a pretty good knowledge on the Bible I can't recall a single verse where anything is spoken about God giving a right to bear arms.

Secondly, There has been only one Supreme Court ruling (United States v. Miller) on the Second Amendment. They sustained a statute requiring registration under the National Firearms Act of sawed-off shotguns.

While I support the 2nd Amendment I also see a valid reason for there to be restriction being placed on those right. As a example I fully support the right of an business owner to post a sign that says NO GUNS allowed. I also support the government's right to restrict the types of firearms a owner owns.

I also think your statement "I be leave at some point that same permission will be given to this country's citizens. as it should." Will never come to be.

kc0iv
I love it. I really do. You state that you support the 2nd amendment then you list a bunch of exceptions that essentially destroy it. Some people just don't know how to think anymore.
Well the difference between your concept and mine is I believe other people have right to. If a business owner doesn't want you "packing heat" then he/she has the right to restrict your entry. He/She has made a business decision and that decision trump's your right to "pack heat."

I see the same logic with companies that have the rule of no weapons in their trucks.

If you want to read the "Bill of Rights" as written in respect to the 2nd Amendment and apply it as it is written then you have a real problem. Being the 2nd Amendment would only address black power weapons. Since these was the only ammo available when it was written.

The third point would be in respect to the 2nd Amendment is a State's rights. In the case of United States v. Cruikshank the Court ruled the 2nd Amendment was not granted by the Constitution. I quote:
6. The right to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution; neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The Second Amendments means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress, and has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the National Government.

and

The second avers an intent to hinder and prevent the exercise by the same persons of the "right to keep and bear arms for a lawful purpose."
United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875)
As such the States can restrict what guns a person can possess. At least until such time as the Court rules otherwise.

Maybe it is you that can't think.

kc0iv
 
  #62  
Old 02-22-2008, 05:42 AM
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As to what the 2d Amendment says:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitut...ml#amendmentii

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
[It is a matter of interpretation..... read here:

Amendment II

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/c...t02/index.html

One of the most telling aspects of the case law regarding the 2d Amendment is this:

Footnote "7" is very interesting:

Annotations

In spite of extensive recent discussion and much legislative action with respect to regulation of the purchase, possession, and transportation of firearms, as well as proposals to substantially curtail ownership of firearms, there is no definitive resolution by the courts of just what right the Second Amendment protects. The opposing theories, perhaps oversimplified, are an ''individual rights'' thesis whereby individuals are protected in ownership, possession, and transportation, and a ''states' rights'' thesis whereby it is said the purpose of the clause is to protect the States in their authority to maintain formal, organized militia units.1 Whatever the Amendment may mean, it is a bar only to federal action, not extending to state2 or private3 restraints. The Supreme Court has given effect to the dependent clause of the Amendment in the only case in which it has tested a congressional enactment against the constitutional prohibition, seeming to affirm individual protection but only in the context of the maintenance of a militia or other such public force.

In United States v. Miller,4 the Court sustained a statute requiring registration under the National Firearms Act of sawed-off shotguns. After reciting the original provisions of the Constitution dealing with the militia, the Court observed that ''[w]ith obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such forces the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted with that end in view.''5 The significance of the militia, the Court continued, was that it was composed of ''civilians primarily, soldiers on occasion.'' It was upon this force that the States could rely for defense and securing of the laws, on a force that ''comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense,'' who, ''when called for service . . . were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.''6 Therefore, ''[i]n the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than 18 inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well- regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense.''7

Since this decision, Congress has placed greater limitations on the receipt, possession, and transportation of firearms,8 and proposals for national registration or prohibition of firearms altogether have been made.9 At what point regulation or prohibition of what classes of firearms would conflict with the Amendment, if at all, the Miller case does little more than cast a faint degree of illumination toward an answer.

Footnotes

[Footnote 1] A sampling of the diverse literature in which the same historical, linguistic, and case law background is the basis for strikingly different conclusions is: Staff of Subcom. on the Constitution, Senate Committee on the Judiciary, 97th Congress, 2d Sess., The Right to Keep and Bear Arms (Comm. Print 1982); Don B. Kates, Handgun Prohibition and the Original Meaning of the Second Amendment (1984); Gun Control and the Constitution: Sources and Explorations on the Second Amendment (Robert J. Cottrol, ed. 1993); Stephen P. Halbrook, That Every Man Be Armed: The Evolution of a Constitutional Right (1984); Symposium, Gun Control, 49 Law & Contemp. Probs. 1 (1986); Sanford Levinson, The Embarrassing Second Amendment, 99 Yale L.J. 637 (1989).

[Footnote 2] Presser v. Illinois, 116 U.S. 252, 265 (1886). See also Miller v. Texas, 153 U.S. 535 (1894); Robertson v. Baldwin, 165 U.S. 275, 281-282 (1897). The non-application of the Second Amendment to the States is good law today. Quilici v. Village of Morton Grove, 695 F. 2d 261 (7th Cir. 1982), cert. denied, 464 U.S. 863 (1983).

[Footnote 3] United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875).

[Footnote 4] 307 U.S. 174 (1939). The defendants had been released on the basis of the trial court determination that prosecution would violate the Second Amendment and no briefs or other appearances were filed on their behalf; the Court acted on the basis of the Government's representations.

[Footnote 5] Id. at 178.

[Footnote 6] Id. at 179.

[Footnote 7] Id. at 178. In Cases v. United States, 131 F. 2d 916, 922 (1st Cir. 1942), cert. denied, 319 U.S. 770 (1943), the court, upholding a similar provision of the Federal Firearms Act, said: ''Apparently, then, under the Second Amendment, the federal government can limit the keeping and bearing of arms by a single individual as well as by a group of individuals, but it cannot prohibit the possession or use of any weapon which has any reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia.'' See Lewis v. United States, 445 U.S. 55, 65 n.8 (1980) (dictum: Miller holds that the ''Second Amendment guarantees no right to keep and bear a firearm that does not have 'some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia'''). See also Hickman v. Block, 81 F.3d 98 (9th Cir.) (plaintiff lacked standing to challenge denial of permit to carry concealed weapon, because Second Amendment is a right held by states, not by private citizens), cert. denied 117 S. Ct. 276 (1996); United States v. Gomez, 92 F.3d 770, 775 n.7 (9th Cir. 1996) (interpreting federal prohibition on possession of firearm by a felon as having a justification defense ''ensures that [the provision] does not collide with the Second Amendment'').

[Footnote 8] Enacted measures include the Gun Control Act of 1968. 82 Stat. 226, 18 U.S.C. Sec. Sec. 921-928. The Supreme Court's dealings with these laws have all arisen in the context of prosecutions of persons purchasing or obtaining firearms in violation of a provisions against such conduct by convicted felons. Lewis v. United States, 445 U.S. 55 (1980); Barrett v. United States, 423 U.S. 212 (1976); Scarborough v. United States, 431 U.S. 563 (1977); United States v. Bass, 404 U.S. 336 (1971).

[Footnote 9] E.g., National Commission on Reform of Federal Criminal Laws, Working Papers 1031-1058 (1970), and Final Report 246-247 (1971).
Who's right and who's wrong? Its truly a "quagmire". :shock:

I own several guns, but I don't carry one with me on the road. Never really felt the need.
 
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  #63  
Old 02-22-2008, 05:49 AM
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I wonder if a gun would have helped this guy?
http://blogs.tampabay.com/breakingne...driver-sh.html
 
  #64  
Old 02-22-2008, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Fredog
I wonder if a gun would have helped this guy?
http://blogs.tampabay.com/breakingne...driver-sh.html
Good question....and then again the article said that "he was sleeping"...so maybe not..... but on the other hand....was he one of these dumbasses that lets a "lizard" into his truck? I can tell you the "neighborhood" where he was.... was not a particularly safe place to park on the street. Uh-uh, no, I wouldn't.
 
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  #65  
Old 02-22-2008, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Skywalker
Originally Posted by Fredog
I wonder if a gun would have helped this guy?
http://blogs.tampabay.com/breakingne...driver-sh.html
Good question....and then again the article said that "he was sleeping"...so maybe not..... but on the other hand....was he one of these dumbasses that lets a "lizard" into his truck? I can tell you the "neighborhood" where he was.... was not a particularly safe place to park on the street. Uh-uh, no, I wouldn't.
yea, I know the area, no way I would sleep there.
 
  #66  
Old 02-23-2008, 05:22 AM
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By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.
In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equa l footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for an [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

The n there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.
 
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  #67  
Old 02-23-2008, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Bumper
By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.
In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equa l footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for an [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

The n there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.
Well said!!!
 
  #68  
Old 02-23-2008, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Ratdog
Originally Posted by Bumper
By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.
In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equa l footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for an [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

The n there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.
Well said!!!

x 2
 
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  #69  
Old 02-23-2008, 10:29 AM
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As I understand it, it's fairly common for the thief to shoot his victim in the gut after the robbery. The driver was 60+ years old. He might have been knocking on the door of a heart attack, and a wound could have triggered it early.

That said...

Was his door unlocked? Did he sleep soundly? Even if he did have a weapon, if he slept soundly and didn't wake up at the slightest noise or disturbance, by the time he woke up, he could well have had a gun in his face. At that point, it does not matter if he has a weapon or not. The thief already has the upper hand. You're not likely to try grabbing your own weapon if you're already looking down the business end of someone else's.

And, as far as buying company goes. I've talked to some of the girls over the years. I've never known any of them to carry a firearm. Mace, yes, but not a gun. Of course, it is possible that a girl may have been working with someone else, and while she got his attention, her partner came in. Possible, but I really don't think so.
 
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  #70  
Old 02-24-2008, 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Fredog
I wonder if a gun would have helped this guy?
http://blogs.tampabay.com/breakingne...driver-sh.html

Geeeez.... that's horrible!

Did he get shot while he was inside the truck?

Did the shooter shoot through the sleeper?

Did the shooter get inside of the truck?

So many questions unanswered.
 

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