[Patrick]

Okay ... here is an issue that's been on my mind recently.

I'd like to think that with governed rigs and higher standards, most companies are encouraging their drivers to keep their logs proper and "fly right". Am I living in la-la land? Do they say, "drive safe!" as they give you a wink and a nudge?

If you do keep it all above board do you find yourself with cut back miles, crappy equipment, and the most awful assignments?

I'd appreciate your comments and if you don't want to say, outright - please vote in this informal poll so we can get an idea of just how widespread log tampering might be. (Remember: Only those who are actually driving keep logs so all you wannabe drivers - like me - keep your votes to yourself).

Thanks,
Patrick

[TK THE TRUCKER]

While I'm new to OTR trucking, I'm not new to trucking. I ran local for 4 years and did a logbook because I went out of a 100 mile radius. But I was home every night and weekend. So logging it legal was cake. But now that I'm OTR I do cut corners corners on my logbook to a point. For instance you need to take 2 hours sleeper berth time in order to stop the 14 hour clock. Now if your at the dock for lets say 2.5 hours the law says this is on duty not driving. But it also says that dock time has to be logged for a minimum of 15 minutes. So guess what? I just happend to arrive at my delivery and go in the sleeper berth for 2.25 hours and then do my 15 minute delivery or pick up. So now I have I still have 13.75 hours left. Now if I logged the total time I would have only 11.50 hours left. But I can only drive 11 hours, so it didn't really help me that day. So what was the point of logging it sleeper berth? The 70 hours in 8 days rule or 60 hours in 7 days rule. If you count every minute your at a dock over the course of a week you will eat up your 70 hours in no time and be left with no time for driving and making money and you'll be stuck doing a 34 hour restart. So by saving an hour here and there I keep my hours down so that when I need them I'll have them. This is probably the most common thing I do. I don't run 2 logbooks, I don't drive over 11 hours nor do I drive if I feel that I am too tired even if I have more driving time left. Of course this is just the way I do it. Many people use many different ways to fudge the book.

[dtrain]

Originally Posted by Patrick

Okay ... here is an issue that's been on my mind recently.

I'd like to think that with governed rigs and higher standards, most companies are encouraging their drivers to keep their logs proper and "fly right". Am I living in la-la land? Do they say, "drive safe!" as they give you a wink and a nudge?

If you do keep it all above board do you find yourself with cut back miles, crappy equipment, and the most awful assignments?

I'd appreciate your comments and if you don't want to say, outright - please vote in this informal poll so we can get an idea of just how widespread log tampering might be. (Remember: Only those who are actually driving keep logs so all you wannabe drivers - like me - keep your votes to yourself).

Thanks,
Patrick

Patrick, lets talk about logs. :roll: I am just getting into the otr trucking business. I am coming into this business with tweny-five years otr motocoach experience. When it comes to logs we all are tempted to what they call doctor the log book. :shock: Some of us skirt our log books to make it to our destinations. This of course is illegal. If we are caught the fines can be high. I ran a trip from New York to Canada. On my way back I got a federal DOT inspection at the border. I got a log book violation that cost me $500.00. I am quoting you 1981 prices. I can imagine what the fine is now. Needless to say that was the last time I ever doctored my log book. I never ran more than one log book. My thoughts were if I did and got stopped, I would probably hand the inspector the wrong book. ops: :sad: CAUGHT! When it comes to otr driving we all have to keep in mind, getting our cargo to its destination on time is one thing, however this is our bread and butter. Think about, you call pull a job that is going to pay you over a thousand dollars. You pull into a scale house and get a log book violation, how much you think that job is going to pay you then; nothing!! :evil: Is it worth the risk? Think about this, you're running illegal, your logbook is doctored, and you get into an accident. What do you think is going to happen to you cdl and your career? :withstupid:
I'd like to think that with the new regulations that the industry has improved and companies are encouraging their drivers to do the right thing. Maybe some do and others say "just don't get caught". I worked for motorcoach companies that would book work so tight that you almost had no choice but to doctor your log or tell the dispatcher you're not doing the job. Of course you were now on his "S" list. :sad: You would get the garbage work for awhile after that while one of his cronies would get the jobs. It is something to think about but remember it is your license that the man is going to ask for. :!:
Patrick you are just coming into the transportation business, don't get into doctoring your logbook, the price is too high and its not worth it. Keep your ideas and posts coming. See you on the big road. :rock:

[Montara]

Originally Posted by Patrick

Okay ... here is an issue that's been on my mind recently.

I'd like to think that with governed rigs and higher standards, most companies are encouraging their drivers to keep their logs proper and "fly right". Am I living in la-la land? Do they say, "drive safe!" as they give you a wink and a nudge?

If you do keep it all above board do you find yourself with cut back miles, crappy equipment, and the most awful assignments?

I'd appreciate your comments and if you don't want to say, outright - please vote in this informal poll so we can get an idea of just how widespread log tampering might be. (Remember: Only those who are actually driving keep logs so all you wannabe drivers - like me - keep your votes to yourself).

Thanks,
Patrick

Well I suppose it all depends upon who you are willing to work for and how strictly they control what you can or are allowed to do.

You want an old school driver who will get the job done and look after the equipment... then don't even think about bitching to me that you can't legally log it that way.
I keep my end up by making sure that I don't get log book tickets on the road. As far as the scales are concerned, what they see, it looks good at the time, on paper.

If a carrier is going to bitch about it... they can go find themselves some simpleton steering wheel holder.

Me personally, I lived by the rule of thumb that you don't make money sitting around waiting for your log book to catch up or give you back some hours.
If I''m going to spend my time sitting around, I'll do it resting at home.
Or if on the road, because I choose to.



Not because of some idiotic cash grab piece of legislation.

[Patrick]

It seems to me that if someone felt "safe" they might be allowed to go with it. But unfortunately I can understand how some companies may abuse their drivers if they were not legally prohibited from doing so. One of the reasons unions came about (like the Teamsters)?

But what happens to the company when one of their drivers gets a log violation? Do they get penalized at all? Or is it all on the driver? Do some companies pay their drivers back for any fines?

I don't want to be illegal, but if 60% of the people taking this poll (so far) say they doctor their books on a regular basis it seems that this is still an issue in the industry.

Originally Posted by Montara

You want an old school driver who will get the job done and look after the equipment... then don't even think about bitching to me that you can't legally log it that way.

Old School driver? Is this a positive thing? And why would someone who would voice concern about being "legal" be bitching?

Originally Posted by Montara

I keep my end up by making sure that I don't get log book tickets on the road. As far as the scales are concerned, what they see, it looks good at the time, on paper.

If a carrier is going to bitch about it... they can go find themselves some simpleton steering wheel holder.

Me personally, I lived by the rule of thumb that you don't make money sitting around waiting for your log book to catch up or give you back some hours. If I''m going to spend my time sitting around, I'll do it resting at home. Or if on the road, because I choose to. Not because of some idiotic cash grab piece of legislation.

Wow! Some very strong opinions there Montara. But it seems to me you feel that if someone would want to be legal they are "Simpleton Steering Wheel Holders" and are "bitching" when they try to comply. Am I correct in assuming that when you think of "Old School" drivers you're thinking of the macho, independent, "Do what it takes", kind of person? Is this kind of non-bitcher the good guy and the non-old school, steering wheel holder isn't as good a driver or worker?

And are the DOT regulations governing time on the road "idiotic"? How do they grab cash? I'm confused. Was it better when there were no restrictions and a company could demand you drive 12, 14, 18 hours in one shot or you loose your job? Maybe if the current law is over protective, where would you draw the line between safety and productivity?

I'm just a rookie - never once driven a big rig. But this doesn't seem to have a simple answer to me, and as someone who takes a great deal of pride in my perfect driving record (yes 33 years old and no incidents whatsoever since I started driving at the age of 16 - well except for a parking ticket), I want to do what is right and legal. It is my driving record on the line, isn't it? It is my career that would be in jeopardy, right? Man, I hope because I'd like to protect my record and be safe I'm not just dismissed as a bitching, "new"-school driver who isn't able to "keep my end up" because I'm only capable of holding the steering wheel.

By the way - I'm not necessarily in favor of such restrictive regulations either. I just wish there were a way to balance each individual driver's abilities and endurance while guarding against companies that would endanger their employees, their equipment, and the public by pushing their drivers to work unsafely.

[The_Man_In_Black]

Double log books can cost you your CDL for life, if I read that correctly, recently. Most places, I have heard, show you how to shave a little time here or there so that you do not lose your driving time and miles due to sitting still during loading/ unloading etc. At least, that is my understanding of things.

[willyworm]

Patrick
First of all, the HOS regulations are in place to keep you and others on the road safe....Period.

Don't believe the Cowboy crap about how it's to stop you from making money, common sense should tell you that is a line of crap.
The more you make, the more that the Govenerment takes.
Why would the government want to stop you from making money.

One of the biggest problems with the government regulations, are that the interstate carriers are not required to pay overtime, and they don't seem to think that they should or have to pay drivers for all their time and/or labor received by them and there no set regulations in place that mandates that they paid a fair compensation for all the time worked.

Just think about it? Overtime, time and a half over 40 hours
The carriers would be cutting your hours, you wouldn't need a HOS regulations. ...The company would cut you off.
Thats the reason the rest of the country only work a 40 hour week.
If the OT wage requirements were removed, the companies would work employees 7 days a week.

The bigger problem are, that the Carriers are NOT held responsible for HOS violations, it's the driver that pays the price, so the carriers push the drivers as hard as "YOU" let them. .......

Open that pie hole under your nose a say "NO" Won't do it. .

DOT does not care if the devil (Dispatch) made you do it.
It's up to you! .......Peroid.

SO! the driver is going to have refuse to operate outsided of the regulations.

In the last few years, and because of the shortage of qualified drivers, the carriers are paying better wages and benefits. (supply and demand)
And if tomorrow there were a over abundant of drivers, the carriers would go back to the same old crap....LOW PAY and little if any benefits.

It used to be that you could set for days, (for free) waiting for dispatch to find you a load or give you a load, and/or spend 8-10 hours unloading and sorting a load of freight, ....for free!
The Cowboys, says crap.. like!, "Got to pay your dues"
"BULL Crap! I work for money, If I didn't need the money, I could have stayed home.
However, if a Carrier would do that today, they would not have any drivers working them.

You have to take responsibily for yourself and your actions.
The pill popping, cowboy days are gone. THANK GOD!

The Drivers that cheats on his log book, is cheating themself, if you figured the the hours that they drive or work, ("driving", or "on duty not driving" is still work ) compared to what they are paid.

It's like this: A Driver, drives more hours, but shows less hours.....WHY! the "H" would a person do that. .........It's not every smart! working harder for the same money. I quess it makes a person "THINK" their being paid more per hour.

If you continue do extra work for the same pay, then the company are going to let you. ........No skin off their back, they like those guys, but sooner or later the driver will get caught by DOT and they could lose their CDL's for life........

Then they can get a job as a door greeter at Wal-Mart.

It simple:
You don't cheat on anything ....Period!....HONEST alway!
You don't work for free. .........unless it the spouse's honey do list!

And remember this.
The reason that your not paid more, is because you'll do it for less!

[Patrick]

Thanks, williworm, for your thoughts. I suppose I'd have to agree with you that the more drivers that are willing to break the law, the less companies will be motivated to treat those drivers that are unwilling to break the law well. It's apparently no great loss to them. Conversely, if the vast majority of drivers out there insisted on following the regulations, companies would have to respect it. So is appears that those who break the law, drive with doctored books, and risk their licenses and their safety to provide the company with risk free profit are in fact cutting the rest of us off at the knees. Kind of scary! :shock:

[Montara]

Originally Posted by Patrick

It seems to me that if someone felt "safe" they might be allowed to go with it. But unfortunately I can understand how some companies may abuse their drivers if they were not legally prohibited from doing so. One of the reasons unions came about (like the Teamsters)?

But what happens to the company when one of their drivers gets a log violation? Do they get penalized at all? Or is it all on the driver? Do some companies pay their drivers back for any fines?

If you're working for a decent outfit.. they'll take care of your fine for you. Fines issued through an audit that is, not at the scales.
You get a logbook ticket on the road... simply said... you're an idiot and deserve to pay it.

I don't want to be illegal, but if 60% of the people taking this poll (so far) say they doctor their books on a regular basis it seems that this is still an issue in the industry.

Then let me ask you this, what is your primary reason for you being out OTR for days on end.

To be known as a saint...?

or make a living while practicing the same accounting priniciples and tactics that all businesses do.

Wow! Some very strong opinions there Montara. But it seems to me you feel that if someone would want to be legal they are "Simpleton Steering Wheel Holders" and are "bitching" when they try to comply.

Let me clarify that for you.

If the company is going to demand 100 % compliance and run legal logs.. they can kiss my old school ass goodbye and replace me with some whipping boy that'll genuflect to them on demand.

That has happened too.
The driver they hired to replace me, 3 accidents in the first 6 weeks, the last one writing the tractor off.

A Just reward no? 8) :lol:

And yes, I did make sure to call the company up and congratulate them.

Am I correct in assuming that when you think of "Old School" drivers you're thinking of the macho, independent, "Do what it takes", kind of person?

Close but not exactly.

Old school as in I'm not about to pull in and have a mechanic adjust my brakes because I haven't got a clue what to do with a 9/16th's wrench on a manual slack adjuster.
Old school as in the last thing you do before you got in a truck was remove your mud covered boots and set them on a towel beside the door.

Old school as in 6x4 did not mean 24, 5x4 did not mean 20.

Old school... meant you knew how to do it and took care of it yourself.
Not picking up the phone every five freaking minutes asking some paper pusher... is this okay, am I allowed, would it be alright, etc...

Is this kind of non-bitcher the good guy and the non-old school, steering wheel holder isn't as good a driver or worker?

Depends on who you ask I suppose.
Some saftey mensas will tell you that they don't care for the old school because they can't bs us and to them, we are seen as being somewhat loose cannons.
Others will tell you they'd go with an old school driver any day of the week because you could trust them to know how to take care of a situation without screwing up.

Old school attitudes meant taking pride in your ride while doing what it took to get the job done.
It meant stopping to help another driver that was broke down, not seeing just how much spray you can throw up on him as you went flying by at 55mph.


Steering wheel holder, doesn't really care about what they drive or the truck's appearance as long as it's legal. The only concern they have is following the rules and regulations to a tee. Nothing more.

And are the DOT regulations governing time on the road "idiotic"?

What part of government legislation and pieces of paper dictating to your body on when it must sleep or deny it sleep do you not understand? :roll:

Log book says I must sleep now... OK... I'll lay here for the first 4 hours even though I'm not the least bit tired.

OH * Yawn * ... can't stop now... or I'll lose my hours available to make a Living

Ya, that's not idiotic now is it? :roll:

How do they grab cash?

You ever tried to fight a ticket? How many have you ever beaten it?

Easy money for them and yes, a cash grab, because the government knows damn well that in order to survive, you're forced to fudge or cheat in your books. It's a win win situation for them... they get your income tax dollars and a bit more on top of it, if they catch you trying to get ahead.

I'm confused. Was it better when there were no restrictions and a company could demand you drive 12, 14, 18 hours in one shot or you loose your job?

Well, as someone that has driven before they mandated hours of service up here in Canada, hell YES it was better then. And anyone with a backbone put in that position, would have told the company to go, well you know, to do what to themselves.

Maybe if the current law is over protective, where would you draw the line between safety and productivity?

Get rid of log books altogether.

Why is Dr. Joe the heart surgeon, William the CEO or Edward the Senator/Congressman allowed to put in 14 hour days and then hop into his Yukon with the boat towed behind it and drive all night to get up to the lake on the weekend. ?

Class discrimination?

I'm just a rookie - never once driven a big rig. But this doesn't seem to have a simple answer to me, and as someone who takes a great deal of pride in my perfect driving record (yes 33 years old and no incidents whatsoever since I started driving at the age of 16 - well except for a parking ticket), I want to do what is right and legal. It is my driving record on the line, isn't it? It is my career that would be in jeopardy, right? Man, I hope because I'd like to protect my record and be safe I'm not just dismissed as a bitching, "new"-school driver who isn't able to "keep my end up" because I'm only capable of holding the steering wheel.

Well.. that's a nice fantasy and one that is commonly shared by all at first.
But feel no shame when reality kicks in and makes you realise that.. a safe driver is just that...
One that drives safely, not one that drives to meet the requirements of when and for how long set out by an idiotic piece of legislation.

Incidently, I've over 2 million, preventable accident free miles.
The last preventable accident I had, which was admittedly my fault, was in 1983 when I clipped another driver's mirror and hood while backing in blindside one night.

The one consistent thing... I could give a rats ass about logging it absolutely legally.
I logged it so that I could drive when I wanted to, make a living and above all else, do so safely.

By the way - I'm not necessarily in favor of such restrictive regulations either. I just wish there were a way to balance each individual driver's abilities and endurance while guarding against companies that would endanger their employees, their equipment, and the public by pushing their drivers to work unsafely.

There is... we all know our own body and limitations.
Judge yourself accordingly.


And nobody forces you to drive or work unsafely, ultimately, we all have the final say.
If a company doesn't like it... they can go... well again... you know

They need us more than we need them.
Trust me.
You think that those wearing white shirts and suits and ties are going to pick up the slack?

Not bloody likely.

[willyworm]

If a driver can't make a living working 60/7 or 70/8 then "1", their underpaid or "2", they are working for the wrong company.

14 hours a day, is 6 hours a day, 20 hours a week, more than most people work............Why? would a person want to work more.??

Get some sleep, you need it!