I said:

What happened to my SMILIE?? I KNOW I put a smilie after that! It was a JOKE!

Slim said:

I never thought you were "run of the mill." Although, sometimes your posts SOUNDED as if you were.... I KNEW you were a "questioner." Yet, you always SAID you were secure in your faith. You never ONCE allowed the possibility that it could all be an "illusion." To be honest.... I was SHOCKED to read your original post on this thread, as it sounded like you were questioning the whole picture.... for the FIRST time!

I DID read what you said, at least TWICE! I was not "waiting to leap." I did not disbelieve you when you said you had NOT denied your faith. But, this was the first time you had QUESTIONED it to the point that you felt that you could no longer "preach it" until you had answered some questions.

"MY World" was a reference to that of one who is fairly well versed "in the faith," yet has spent a lifetime QUESTIONING it! It is a very PAINFUL world, yet you SEEMED to have embarked on a similar journey of doubt or questioning. This has been MY world for most of my life! "Welcome to MY world" is a catchphrase of "our" generation! I meant no harm by it. If anything, it was a type of CONDOLENCE. I was SORRY to hear that you had lost some of your PEACE in your beliefs, and might now have to suffer some of the pangs that I have had to live with all these years!

Okay, maybe I was wrong about your background. I was going ONLY on what you had told us, and I was explaining what I have seen SO MANY times from those who come to salvation late in life. I suppose I should have left that part out! :lol:

But, you DID "fill the bill!" Your posts were often right out of the "Handbook for NEWLY reborn Christians." I had no problem with that, really. It IS a fact though, that MANY of them immediately begin to exercise the Great Command, without stopping sometimes to realize that others MAY have already HEARD the Gospel. I will not go so far as to say YOU "talked down" to us, but at times it seemed as if YOU thought you were telling us the "good news" for the first time in our lives! No problem, I wouldn't have engaged or read them if I was in any way repulsed by your posts.

Yes, you were at times willing to "debate," and always willing to "discuss." But, you always had a CONVICTION about what you were saying as IF there could be no doubt to its veracity. You spoke of concepts of faith and historical teachings as if they were all backed by solid proof! But, they just AREN'T! And NOW you are admitting to some doubts. I was not LEAPING at some chance to discredit you! I was surprised at this new revelation, and maybe a bit over eager to share MY OWN doubts and "beliefs." I had listened to YOURS for along time, with very LITTLE argument other than to occaissionaly ask you to "consider" an alternative thought or explanation.

Again..... I was JOKING! But, it is okay that you are disappointed in me! But, you'll have to GET IN LINE behind my parents, my ex-wife, a child I failed, my GOD (if there is one) and MYSELF! Oh yeah.... now, you'll also have to get behind For4Roses! :lol: I'm not REALLY such a big AZZ!! I just PLAY one in the "illusion" many call REAL LIFE! :wink:

Hmm.... don't remember EVER asking for prayers for myself! Not sure I believe in them. I guess I just wanted to "fit in." Or more likely, I wasn't sure they DIDN'T help..... and, if they DID, I wanted those who felt comfortable in doing so to help someone "I" had no power to help! I keep my options open. And, it made you feel good to be ASKED to help out, didn't it? Did it not also show that I RESPECTED those of you who believe in prayer?

Ah, Honesty! Such a wonderful thing! It is so refreshing when people drop their pretentions and tell me what they REALLY think of me! :lol: And YOU are not the FIRST! :wink: Would it surprise you to know that I already KNOW this is how I "come off" most of the time? Do you think I wouldn't have CHANGED that by now, if it were possible? Truth is.... I don't actually FEEL superior! I just have my opinions, and what I believe to be some amount of "knowledge." If my argument is sometimes "superior," it may ONLY be a superior ARGUMENT!! At one time, I intended to be a lawyer. Can I help it if I have the ability to present my case as if it were RIGHT?? If I were defending your life in court, wouldn't you WANT me to have a superior argument? I'm sorry, but I just don't know how to put out an inferior position and HOPE no one tears me apart! :roll: Let's say, for the sake of argument, that GOD gave me this brain, and ALL the thoughts within it. Am I to DOUBT that those thoughts are TRUE and correct?

I grew up with a Preacher for a father. EVERY Sunday he stood in the pulpit and told people what HE felt they needed to hear. He even admitted that he was often stepping on their toes. But, that was HIS "calling." Was he being "condescending?" Probably. But, the people didn't mind. Of course..... this board, and people in general, are not "my flock!" I am no preacher or shepherd. Therefore, you take offense to what I say.

Did Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, or any of our OTHER founding fathers not speak with CONVICTION when addressing their fellow citizens? But, THEY were never questioned or accused of being "condescending" because THEY were men of import! But, who am I? NO ONE! Just another Hobo on the web! At least, that is YOUR perception, and therefore the basis of your opinion of me. So be it.

And that IS a "gift." I guess I couldn't be blessed with EVERYTHING! :lol:

I am flattered. And, I believe... you ARE wrong. But, that is not your fault. I wasn't very clear in my intentions! I did not think you had LEFT your faith. I was just surprised to hear so much DOUBT coming from you.... to the point that you felt you should no longer "teach."

I am sorry to have disappointed you! But, perhaps it is not wise to hold me higher than I can reach! I, too.... am only human! I have "gifts" and I have failings! My written words rarely convey the humor with which they were conceived. I should be flogged severely! :wink:

You must live amongst a Jewish enclave. I don't see so many people obsessed with the OLD "jewish law." But then, I live amongst Southern Baptists! And they have their OWN form of "fire and brimstone!" :wink:
My only point was that you seem to spend hours researching and discussing ANCIENT jewish law, I guess so that you can understand the "new law" which is something that SHOULD be accepted on FAITH. Unless you are trying to convert the Jews, you are discussing stuff only a Seminary student would even concern himself with. Other than a small minority, America is a gentile nation.

Might I suggest you read the book "Illusions" by Richard S. Bach?? (Jonathan Livingston Seagull fame.) Perhaps, it would give you a better idea of where "I" am coming from.


I would like nothing better! Meanwhile..... I will work on losing some weight off my AZZ!!

Hobo

:wink:

 

Steve said:

First, let me say.... thank YOU for your "service!" We often say that today for eveyone who has served in the military, but we fail to give the same respect and appreciation to those who hold our future in their hands! I am only half-way kidding when I say, it must at times be just as hard to complete your mission while dodging "spitballs" as it is for them while dodging bullets! :wink:

My mother was a product of foster homes. She was taken from her mother, who tried to DROWN her in the sink, after seeing her wonderful father die of a heart attack in front of them at the age of 32. Her mother was a drunk, and abused her. She has NEVER gotten over her childhood! Today's parents, are sometimes WORSE! (not ALL of them!)

Yes, many of us do. Detach... I mean. I find it interesting that you let YOUR conscience be the litmus test for what you are being taught. Yet, you say....

I'm not looking for a fight here. Just maybe MORE explanation. And do you mean Questioning GOD?? Or questioning the EXISTENCE of god? There IS a difference. The former could be considered "egocentric" and near blasphemy.... while the latter might just be an expression of "free will."

IS it?? If God made me in HIS image, and "IF" I have a true communion WITH him.... is it not possible for me to access SOME level of "divine thought?" Or must I be relegated to the base of Human Reasoning?

God wishes me "the peace that passes understanding" does he not? Then, why is it so impossible that I might achieve that peace THROUGH "Understanding" of Divine thought?

I don't see it this way. MAN is the one who has written for years that they are "unworthy" and shall KNEEL in his divine presence! GOD through Jesus asked us to "walk with him, talk with him. Have a PERSONAL relationship with him! Granted, that might should be a relationship of the "grasshopper" and the "Sage." But, the grasshopper cannot learn the "walk of the master" while on his KNEES!

I guess this would depend on how "bad" you had been! :lol: And, I don't want to hijack the post, but this can easily be explained by Psychology as a "transfer of guilt." The mind is a powerful entity. Within it is the power to change your outlook, even relieve depression, by a simple synapse (or drug) that makes you FEEL that you are "forgiven" and therefore are free from guilt and self-loathing. Look at what happened in Guyanna with those koolaid drinkers. The mind can believe in ANYTHING that stimulates the pleasure centers.

So does a good indoctrination in LIBERAL thinking! :lol: Are you saying that "love for others" is not achievable without a conversion under theology? It is said that, "greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for another." Jesus certainly exhibited this.... but, so do many in our armed forces.... some of whom have never accepted "salvation." How is this possible? Without a "conversion" from a life of sin, how is it that they equal the highest of Christian principles?

Could it be that Mankind IS capable of "divine thought?" Could it be that there is GOOD and EVIL throughout Mankind.... but, that it is NOT necessarily the purview and property of some imaginary God? Something attainable ONLY by adhering to the "practices" of some organized religion?

Now.... before you accuse me of questioning God.... let me point out that I am only questioning the DEFINITION of God, and the teachings of organized religion!

You are clearly a "learned man." In the old days, at least, you would have HAD to have some understanding of psychology to be a teacher. And, I'm sure you HAVE. Can you rationaly dispute my theories with some "certain" scientific proof that such enlightenment can come ONLY from bending your knee in servitude to some Deity? Or is it more likely that the majority of humankind is programmed to BE as sheep, or more accurately, like the masses that bowed in the presence of Alexander the Great?

What MAKES a simple MAN like Alexander a KING among men? Is it that he has the audacity to STAND in the presence of what even HE perceives to be GOD?? Or is it that the common man does NOT?

Don't bother calling me a "condescending AZZ!" That has been covered! :lol:

Like Slim, I am simply a man with questions. I don't claim to have all the answers, nor do I expect YOU to! I just like a good debate! And to achieve that, I must make us BOTH think! You are NOT "required" to participate. If you chose not to, I will understand. But, if you choose to.... please give me YOUR thoughts, and not those of some organized religion. I've heard all they have to say.

Hobo

 

I just stumbled onto this thread...Slim good luck to you. Check out the book at the bottom of this note.

Many of these questions posed by Slim/Hobo etc can’t be answered by us and we won’t know until this life ends and we find out what lies behind the curtain.

….now

…what lies beyond that curtain is the BIG QUESTION of our lives. And you can boil everything down to three basic beliefs:
1) Nothing lies beyond…atheists
2) A soulless energy/state of being….eastern beliefs
3) An actual being who created all that there is including us…western beliefs

The next question is what of those three basic beliefs best supports the basic questions of our lives such as:

1) Why is there pain, suffering, goodness, beauty, courage, savagery etc.
2) Why do bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people?
3) What best explains the beauty of a sunset, the emotions that art or music can produce, the origins of the universe, laughter…and so on.

For me…the best explanation is #3: that there is a God and there is no other way to let us live except by offering us the free will to choose to believe in Him or not. If He didn’t offer us complete and uncompromised free will, then we’d simply be manipulated puppets. For example, if you gave your daughter $10 and then proceeded to tell her how she could spend it; did you really “give” it to her?

And lastly…for me…. I believe that God really won’t be all that interested in which religion I slapped a name to but He will be more interested in did I live my life as best I could? Did I love God? And did I treat my neighbor as I would myself? All other questions/arguments I will leave for after I cross that curtain because I can’t answer them now. Observing and trying to understand God we are as ants trying to understand Quantum Physics…can’t be done!!

Those are my own thoughts tho…you are free to choose one of the three beliefs above. Good luck in each of our searches….the one fact is that each one of us will eventually hit that curtain…and then what?

There are great books for exploring those thoughts. Here is one:

LONG JOURNEY HOME..by OS GUINNESS
(from Amazon.com) This book is a very fine distillation of wisdom applied to the "big questions" of life's meaning and purpose. Os Guinness takes the reader on a tour of how the world's major religions and some of its greatest thinkers have wrestled with questions of ultimate significance. How does death and human suffering affect our sense of hope and longing for purpose and meaning for our lives? What is the place of gratitude for life's goodness? What principles are worth living and dying for? There are no prepackaged answers to these questions, of course. But whether or not we are to believe there is an answer and what road we take to lead us there are crucial steps in the journey upon which we are all embarked. Whether we conscious of it or not, life is taking us somewhere. When we get to the end, will we look back on our journey with satisfaction and fulfillment or with a sense of shame and loss? For those who feel that an unexamined life is not worth living, this book is provides much to consider. Philosophy and Religion are not an intellectual game we can play with detachment and control over the outcome. The questions are bigger than we are and the Answer must be bigger still. The implications of the search for your life's meaning, if you follow it honestly enough, will end up handling you rather than you handling them. Are you ready? Then read on...

 

יכול אלוהים להיות עמך הידיד שלי

 

ops: Double post...

 

I just came across this post...lots of well, thought-out comments across the thread. Though I do find them very interesting, I don't typically get heavily involved in religious threads. However, on the off-chance that you are still reading the board, Slim, I'll add my thoughts to your comments, as well as to some others.

What makes you think that an all-loving and all-knowing God does not have everything covered? What makes you think that someone who has not had the opportunity to learn of Him - be it a tiny baby, an aborigine tribesman, or someone who is born and dies under the harsh decree of fanatical Islam or the vast emptiness of aethiesm, will not have the opportunity to learn of Him and accept Him, after they have passed?

I, for one, refuse to limit God to what mankind can comprehend. We can not even comprehend what an eternity is like, let alone God's ability to ensure that everyone will have the opportunity to know Him and accept Him.

Everyone has free will. But there are consequences to any action taken through free will. Still, how far do those consequences span? Will the newly arrived Islamic immigrant who shakes his head "No" at Christianity be punished the same as the ex-Christian who once believed and then later turned his back on Christ? Will the newborn baby that dies at birth and never gets the opportunity to learn of Christ, be consigned straight to hell?

The Bible teaches that there is but one unforgiveable sin. To accept Christ and then deny him is the one path that you cannot turn back from. That tells me that God has a plan for everyone, for every situation, and for every time. While the ex-Christian has no way back from his unforgiveable sin, the Islamic Immigrant and the newborn baby will be given their opportunity. How and when that works is anyone's guess. But to believe that we can understand how that works, is to limit God. To believe that God has to work according to our miniscule understanding, is to fall in love with the word of man.

Why should there be no consequences? If there were no consequences, no opposition in life, then there would be no progression, either spiritual or temporal. We could all do anything we wanted and every one of us would be saved. Wait a second - that sounds a lot like what Lucifer wanted. No pain, no guilt, no sadness...by the same token, there would be no pleasure, no pride, no joy.

We are defined by the lives we live. We take with us into the next life, those experiences that define us and the intelligence we gain in this life. We gain this because of free will and because there are consequences and opposition in life. Ask yourself a question, Slim. Would you give up the joy you felt when you held your newborn child? Would give up the ecstacy of your first night with your wife? Would you give up the pride you feel at watching your child excel in something?

In all things, there must be opposition. Without it, you would have nothing; you would be nothing. The same holds true with believing in God. If it were easy to believe in Him, if it were hard-wired into us to always follow His commandments, there would be no spiritual progression. We would be perfect puppets, nothing more, and there would be no joy in returning to Him.

Nothing wrong with being troubled and nothing wrong with asking God questions. I, too, get angry when I see the horrible things that happen in the world. I get angry when I see how mankind treats one another. We are a depraved race of beings and despite all of our perceived "intelligence", we are little more than vicious animals anymore with better ways to hurt, maim, and kill each other. But all this must come to pass. If you believe in the Second Coming, then you know that all this has simply been foretold and prophecy is coming to pass on a rapid basis. It is at it must be, as Satan wages his war on us and claims many of us for his own. It is the seperating of the wheat from the chaff. And it all leads to the return of Christ.

Life is not meant to be easy; neither is a person's spiritual growth. Once again, in all things there must be opposition. If you are asking questions, then you are attempting to learn. That, in itself, is a good thing. But remember that many will be swept up in the words of man and thus, many will be lead astray. So temper what you read and learn, with prayer. If you are sincere, you'll get your answers. God works in mysterious ways. Always has, always will. And when we have passed, we'll understand that it was for our own good.

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HoboIt's not rational to you, because you believe there should be no opposition. But as I stated above, without opposition, there is nothing. I'm certain God knew that Lucifer would choose to stand against Him, just as He knew that it would be Lucifer's choice to make. Free will started in Heaven and has always been part of the plan. And free will is what enables us to grow as mortal beings on this planet we live on. In my opinion, that's a marvelous plan. Yes, it hurts sometimes and sometimes hurts so bad we don't believe we can go on. Trust me, I've been there. But the opposite of that - the joy, the ecstacy, the zest for life...man, there is simply nothing that compares. And that's something that can never be taken from me.

People are not condemned for not understanding His plan. People are condemned when they accept it and understand it one day, but then turn around and by the words of man are led astray and deny it the next day. Once again, do you think the newborn child or the aborigine or the forever birth-to-death-close-minded aethiest had the chance to understand His plan? The obvious answer is no. The not so obvious answer (to us) is, what does God do about these people? To believe that God simply washes His hands of these people is to believe that God must be limited by what our puny mortal minds can comprehend. Again, the only thing God is bound to is His promise to us that we can return to live with Him if we simply humble ourselves and believe in Him. That tells me that everyone gets that chance at one time or another. Whether it's in this life or before we stand in judgement, everyone will have that opportunity to know Him and accept Him.

Denying Christ is hardly what I would call "evolving intellectually". :roll: But that's not where Slim is. He's asking questions and I'm not sure I see a problem with questions. Questions are what helps us grow.

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StevenDThat's very well put. I have a friend who I consider having a pretty good head on his shoulders. He's got a good family, is/was a faithful believer, and had a well-rooted spiritual foundation for life. However, he just up and suddenly decided a couple of months ago that he doesn't believe anymore. I was stunned and am still stunned. We haven't spoken about it, but I am continually scratching my head at the sudden u-turn he's made in his life. If human reason were divine thought, we'd have it made. However, more times than not, human reasoning is downright wierd.

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RoadhogAmen to that. What we learn here, the progression we make intellectually and spiritually, we take with us. The parable of the talents is a perfect example of that.

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HoboYeah, that's satan's best gig...convincing people that he's just an "illusion."

Hobo, have you ever stopped to wonder if the reason that it's painful is because God is trying to tell you something and you are refusing to listen? You've claimed many times that you've asked questions and wondered about all things spiritual. What makes you think you haven't been given an answer over and over again and aren't hearing it?

Those are your words, not mine. My words are: How loud does He have to yell? :?

Granted, but I would be willing to bet that He's been answering you for a long, long time. Maybe it's time to bend the knee and listen? Just sayin'.

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In the end, going back to Slim, I've always enjoyed your posts here on ClassA. I especially enjoyed the news items and signs-of-the-times that you posted. While I may not always agree with the alleged prophetic slant of some of those pieces, I always found it interesting to see other people's takes.

Good luck with your journey of discovery. But during that walk, keep one thing in mind. Learning of Christ and God's plan is an unending process and sometimes, the teacher must take time out from teaching in order to be taught.

 

Hmm..... I THOUGHT I had posted this earlier, and thought T/F had somehow "zapped" it! :lol: In retrospect, I believe I tabled it to my Notepad to answer a PM..... after TRYING to post it for something like 15 minutes and who KNOWS how many clicks of the submit button! :roll: It was to come right after Geomon's post.

One note to T/F (for now...) Yes.... I have a good idea how long eternity is! It is just about one second longer than the interminable amount of time I spend on EACH and EVERY post hitting the SUBMIT button!! :roll: :lol:

But, I know.....it is SUPPOSED to happen to Hobo!! :lol: :lol:

............


Geomon said:

That may or may NOT be true. In recent years, there have been MANY "reports" by those who have more or less "died" and been brought back through modern medical resuscitation miracles.... or advancements. It is ENTIRELY possible that, before WE die, this question MIGHT be answered, and then.... depending on the answer.... we will either have dispelled the need for that one final God of the unknown... OR validated the belief in and existence OF Him! Wouldn't THAT be ironic.... if SCIENCE ends up proving/validating RELIGION?? :lol:

Actually, in #2.... Eastern religions DO believe in a soul that IS a part of "energy" that can be neither created nor destroyed. And, #3.... MANY/most Eastern beliefs believe in some form of God or "creator." I think you would have done better to just classify them as Atheist, Spiritual, and Religious. But, I don't mean to "pick." :wink:

I SEE your point, and often wonder about it as well. However, the Eastern Religions/beliefs have an answer that is AT LEAST as plausible as the Religionists. Perhaps, you haven't studied them as much? Regardless...

And THEREIN lies our question/belief/problem. What good is Free Will "IF" the prize behind door #2 is a fiery lake of damnation?? :shock: :roll: :lol:

Your argument about "your daughter" is exactly what we are saying! How FREE is the choice if you tell her how to spend it.... AND tell her that if she spends it WRONGLY.... she will burn in HELL??

IF he gave me the choice between choosing HIM and living in Heavenly glory... and choosing against Him and just returning to DUST.... then THAT would be somewhat a free choice! But, when you offer someone the FREE WILL to choose heaven or a fierly lake of HELL and PHYSICAL pain and torture for Eternity..... you ARE 'manipulating' them!! Or, at least.... you are PUNISHING them eternally for not exercising their "free will" in a manner that conforms to YOUR desires! What is FREE about that??

Personally.... I could LIVE with being a puppet as long as I DIDN'T have to fear the consequences of failure! What we DON'T know, can't hurt us! God says he wants his creation to LOVE and CHOOSE him!! Fine..... But, only a DESPOT is so "self-absorbed" that he won't TOLERATE those who don't!! Of course.... it is ENTIRELY possible that there IS such a God.... and he NEVER said ANY of that bad stuff!! Maybe, only MAN said that there would be bad consequences if we didn't follow THEIR beliefs in God... i.e: "Religion" is a control mechanism devised by MAN. And GOD really IS a benevolent creator! If THIS is the case.... He should FIRE all of his "salesmen"..... and the Eastern Beliefs are more accurate and palatible!! AND.... they offer MORE "free will."

Herein lies the rub! You won't CROSS that "curtain" in the RIGHT direction, or even HAVE a chance to learn the answers, if you choose the WRONG door! You will go directly to HELL. You "may not" pass GO!! NO $200 for YOU! :lol: ..... At least.... this is the teachings of Western religions! :roll:

According to the Bible (Man's Word .... IMHO,) you cannot REACH Heaven through your "Christian actions" such as how you treated your neighbor, etc!! You get out of Hell.... ONLY by "accepting" a belief in a Creator, and forgoing ALL "sins" as someone has labeled them for you! In other words, by exercising your FREE WILL in only ONE direction! You get out of HEll, by choosing the ONE door that doesn't cost you your life! What choice is THAT? :roll:

Speak for yourself. I not only am NOT an ANT.... I DO understand to some degree Quantum Physics! :lol:

Or possibly to believe/choose something ELSE. There IS... or may be.... not just ONE FACT! Is it a fact that our physical bodies will one day expire? Sure. But, whether we face any "curtain" afterwards, is not certain. I understand your beliefs, admire your eloquent defense of them, and appreciate your willingness not to judge me. I also "note" your somewhat closed mind, and the "strings" that have manipulated it.

I WILL check out the book you suggested. Will you do the same for me? Read "Illusions" by Richard S. Bach. I'm not saying it is some kind of Bible. I am saying it will open your mind to other possibilities. It MAY not register with you the way it did with me. So.... toss it out, if you so choose (with your TRUE "free will.") But, read it, please. It is very short!

I HOPE I have not offended you, Geomon. I'm aware of your beliefs, and have NO desire to offend anyone of any persuasion here! Please do not think that , because I argue for the prosecution, I do not understand, or even sympathize with the defense! I would think that with "free will" comes FREE thought! I am all about THAT!

Peace to you and all the World.

Hobo

 

Hobo…

First of all no worries mate, you have not offended me in the slightest. Each and every one of us has the right to our own personal beliefs and it is good to challenge them or have them challenged, to drill down on why you believe what you believe…else it might be labeled “blind faith” as opposed to the old group Blind Faith . It is great that you think these thoughts as so many just go thru the paces of life and never think on why we are here. From the book I suggested: “ Socrates stated in his trial that “the unexamined life is not worth living”…today’s challenge is to lead an examined life in an unexamining age”. While what Socrates stated may be a “bit strong”, these are all good thoughts to occupy one’s mind.

And…I’ll write that book down and pick it up to read mostly to understand a set of beliefs that I have studied but only lightly. Thanks for the suggestion. And regarding Eastern beliefs….there are some that do believe in gods (don’t Hindus have many of them?). The point I was trying to make was to differentiate between a personal God and the impersonal energy or gods that most Eastern faiths believe in. As opposed to living on as a distinct soul, you are absorbed into that energy, (or Nirvana) which is an impersonal one. You leave your “self” behind. That is radically different from Western beliefs. And I will absolutely NOT state that one belief is true and another false. Rather we all have to sort thru and best answer for ourselves what basic belief best answers the questions of life. Of course I like to think that there is an unseen hand helping me.

And regarding free choice and hell/damnation….First of all, I believe that there is no flaming pit called hell. I pulled this quote from a book (Letters from a Skeptic)…”Hell in Greek is gehenna, and gehenna was a valley outside Jerusalem which was used as the city’s major dump. It is the ultimate destiny of people who freely choose to live a life God never intended for them”. To me…hell is not an eternity of screaming fire and brimstone but could better be described as that place, absent from God. Perhaps another way of looking at it is: heaven is me saying to God “Your will be done” and hell is God saying “you’re will be done”. There are many descriptions of hell and many questions as well. This is just one man’s view (mine)

Anyway…nuff for now.

 

Geomon said:

Hobo…

Well, I remember you getting a bit frustrated with Fozzy at one time. Of course, he didn't have my "genteel" nature! :wink:

I absolutely agree! But, in a way.... THEY are the blessed! Ignorance is bliss, ya know! As I have said, a lifetime of questioning HAS brought me a measure of torture! But, I will NOT go through life believing what only ONE "religion" teaches me as if I were a sheep! Some may think I am ONLY about destroying their faith.... but, I am on a journey of my own.... for some measure of "divine thought" as Steve called it.

To be honest.... ops: ops: ..... I didn't actually NOTICE what book you had suggested! (you're lead up to it was a bit long, and I was in a hurry.) But..... I absolutely planned to go back to that post to get the title and check it out!! REALLY! And now that I know it is THAT book.... I've always LOVED that line by Socrates.... I will DEFINITELY take the time to read it! I was going to do so anyway, SOLELY on your recommendation! I knew you wouldn't steer us wrong! :wink:

Well..... it ain't Socrates! :lol: Just a very interesting read that makes you think! Here's a quote I have hanging on my wall: "Every person, All the events of your life... are there because YOU have drawn them there! What you choose to DO with them.... is up to YOU!"

Some people say, "things happen for a reason." This book, and I say it is more likely that WE are or cause the 'reason.' I have read, and given away, about a dozen copies of it so far..... but, it has been awhile. I need to read it again!

No REAL argument here.... my point was that most/many Eastern Religions DO have a name for one or more Gods, and share many of our own "parables" and "lessons." Most of them believe in some form of Heaven. "Soulless" sounded more like "mysticism," which is different. But, I understand and am intrigued by your distinction that "they" do not necessarily maintain their SELVES in the process! And, of course, you are absolutely correct. :wink:

Don't we ALL? I absolutely refuse to believe that millions of Buddhist Monks are destined to HELL because they either don't KNOW about, or in Twilight's words, DO know about and yet reject the Western belief in God and Jesus! [He actually says "accepts and then denies" but, that is NOT what is taught in Western (Protestant or Catholic) religions.]

Unfortunately, MOST Western religions DO believe in HELL as a fiery lake of torture for all Eternity! If it were ONLY a "place absent of God," then that would fit my earlier argument of free will. We could choose an eternity of JOY.... or one of VOID. THAT, to me would be "free will" without PUNISHMENT and TORTURE. Wouldn't it be IRONIC if "I" missed out on that place of joy.... because of my refusal to accept the "judgement of a God that would send me to a fiery lake"..... only to find out that I was only going to end up as dust?! As Paul Newman said in "Absence of Malice"...... "who do I SEE about that?" :lol: This is why I consider being raised in the Church (and particularly as a Preacher's Son) as a form of "religious abuse!" :lol:

That's an interesting way of looking at it! You feel like coming over and arguing the point with my father who's been believing and preaching Fire and Brimstone for over 50 years now? :lol: :lol:

Nice discussion..... thanks!

Hobo

 

I don't really care what RELIGION teaches about it. I care what the scriptures teach. There is but one unforgivable sin....to accept and then later deny Christ. Those millions of Buddhist Monks may have heard of Christ, but never accepted Him. Just like the Aborigines, the pygmy tribes of Africa, the Indians of the Amazon, the Iraqi and other Arabs born and raised under Islamic rule, etc.

If I truly believed that God consigned all these souls to hell, I'd have the same questions that you do. But I don't believe that at all. I know God is loving and caring and I know that His fondest wish is that we all return to Him. I know it, because of that pesky faith issue that seems to rankle unbelievers. I have my faith, Hobo. I found my faith through trials and tribulations, through prayer, through His hand in my life. I found it because I listened when He was answering me.

It's up to you to find yours. Best of luck in that journey. The answers are there...you just have to be willing to listen and open-minded enough to understand that those answers aren't always what you want them to be.