[golfhobo]

I know that SOME of you think I'm some kind of bleeding heart Liberal, who would stand behind everything the ACLU stood for. But, that is NOT true!

I appreciate SOME of what they've done for equality in America, but I deplore some of their blatantly Anti-Christian stances.

Others of you might ALSO believe that I have a "Christian" soul.... and you may be right. My personal relationship/beliefs are not easy to understand.... nor explain.

But, I am BOTHERED by the MANY displays of crosses, with flowers and sometimes flags, little stones and stuffed puppydogs that I see around nearly EVERY curve in the highways/interstates that I travel every day!

Some on the shoulder.... others in the median. They are EVERYWHERE, and each one seems to be intent on "outdoing" the last! Bigger crosses.... bigger flowers or wreaths....bigger flags! :roll:

On ONE basic level.... I'm not sure I want to be REMINDED of what can happen to me every mile or so. And on the other hand....

I sincerely believe that the Separation of Church and State "concept/laws/whatever" SHOULD, in fact, make it illegal for such "displays" to be located on the "easement" or "right of ways" of public highways!

I have NO problems with the big crosses (sometimes a triple display) that are put on PRIVATE land that borders the highways..... but, I JUST can't get over what I feel is a Constitutional "invasion" of PUBLIC displays of religious symbols on FEDERAL or STATE land!

Please.... don't anyone try to argue the fact that the medians and shoulders of Interstate highways are NOT part of the government/public land. You ALL know they ARE!

But, am I missing something?? WHY has the ACLU not questioned this practice? HOW can this be "sanctioned?"

Has my heart grown too cold? Is my soul too black? Am I the ONLY one who thinks this is not RIGHT?

For those of you who don't drive OTR, and may not see this everyday, I'm telling you.... it's approaching epidemic levels! Two years ago, I saw maybe 10 per trip. Today, I would lose count after 200!!

I don't expect this thread to go on for 10 pages.... but, please.... give me some responses!

Thanks! Hobo

[PackRatTDI]

Your gripe wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that this kind of thing is a tradition that has a strong following among Latin American immigrants would it?

[Malaki86]

Originally Posted by golfhobo

I know that SOME of you think I'm some kind of bleeding heart Liberal, who would stand behind everything the ACLU stood for. But, that is NOT true!

I appreciate SOME of what they've done for equality in America, but I deplore some of their blatantly Anti-Christian stances.

Others of you might ALSO believe that I have a "Christian" soul.... and you may be right. My personal relationship/beliefs are not easy to understand.... nor explain.

But, I am BOTHERED by the MANY displays of crosses, with flowers and sometimes flags, little stones and stuffed puppydogs that I see around nearly EVERY curve in the highways/interstates that I travel every day!

Some on the shoulder.... others in the median. They are EVERYWHERE, and each one seems to be intent on "outdoing" the last! Bigger crosses.... bigger flowers or wreaths....bigger flags! :roll:

On ONE basic level.... I'm not sure I want to be REMINDED of what can happen to me every mile or so. And on the other hand....

I sincerely believe that the Separation of Church and State "concept/laws/whatever" SHOULD, in fact, make it illegal for such "displays" to be located on the "easement" or "right of ways" of public highways!

I have NO problems with the big crosses (sometimes a triple display) that are put on PRIVATE land that borders the highways..... but, I JUST can't get over what I feel is a Constitutional "invasion" of PUBLIC displays of religious symbols on FEDERAL or STATE land!

Please.... don't anyone try to argue the fact that the medians and shoulders of Interstate highways are NOT part of the government/public land. You ALL know they ARE!

But, am I missing something?? WHY has the ACLU not questioned this practice? HOW can this be "sanctioned?"

Has my heart grown too cold? Is my soul too black? Am I the ONLY one who thinks this is not RIGHT?

For those of you who don't drive OTR, and may not see this everyday, I'm telling you.... it's approaching epidemic levels! Two years ago, I saw maybe 10 per trip. Today, I would lose count after 200!!

I don't expect this thread to go on for 10 pages.... but, please.... give me some responses!

Thanks! Hobo

You're joking right? Surely you can't be that much of an ass...

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by PackRatTDI

Your gripe wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that this kind of thing is a tradition that has a strong following among Latin American immigrants would it?

That's a good question, Packrat! (though a loaded one!) I have given that some thought. I was married to a Mexican American, and I got along with her family and "people" very well (except the Mother-in-law!) :lol:

And, yes.... I can tell the difference between the "hispanic" tributes and the others, but I don't think that's it! Years ago, I passed by the shrine on the way up La Veta Pass in Colorado. I didn't object to it, and in fact, felt my heartstrings being pulled. Now, I actually LOOK for it!

BTW, two of my best friends were Latino, as well. I've spent time with ALL their families both here and abroad! I am NOT "mexiphobic" as Fozzy says. Some of my best and favorite years were with my hispanic family and friends in southern Colorado!

Many of the crosses I see are very "plain." (Probably Lutherans! :lol: )

It doesn't really matter if they have a little rock garden in front of them, or just a cross. I just don't feel comfortable about seeing them there!

Funny thing is (concerning the ACLU,) I didn't really have a problem with the 10 Commandments on the steps of courthouses, and other such "cases." It's just these dang crosses on the easeway! :?

But, I appreciate your insinuation! :lol: :lol:

[malaekat]

I simply view crosses as little road signs warning me that that particular area might be hazardous as a driver I appreciate being warned. Crosses are not considered so much as a religious symbol anymore in the context of their use. I have many aethist friends as well as other friends of other cultures who use crosses for gravemarkers in the context of use it is not a christian symbol but a recognizable symbol of respect. Perhaps you are being a little too sensitive about the shape after all it is just a shape like a stop sign or a road flare. But then again maybe you view the shape of a flare to be an offensive misuse of a triangle.

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by Malaki86

You're joking right? Surely you can't be that much of an ass...

Well... yeah.... I guess I CAN.... if that's what you think of it! :lol:

I suppose that makes TWO of us, eh? :wink:

But, hey!..... thanks for your insightful response! :roll: :lol:

[PackRatTDI]

Originally Posted by malaekat

I simply view crosses as little road signs warning me that that particular area might be hazardous as a driver I appreciate being warned. Crosses are not considered so much as a religious symbol anymore in the context of their use. I have many aethist friends as well as other friends of other cultures who use crosses for gravemarkers in the context of use it is not a christian symbol but a recognizable symbol of respect. Perhaps you are being a little too sensitive about the shape after all it is just a shape like a stop sign or a road flare. But then again maybe you view the shape of a flare to be an offensive misuse of a triangle.

There is a local guy here that has tried repeatedly to get our city to remove the 3 crosses logo from the city seal because it violated the separation of church and state.

The seal is 3 crosses within a blazing sun. The seal was designed in 1948 t be premiered for the city's centennial celebration in 1949.


The ACLU has refused to help him with this case because the NM chapter acknowledges that the three crosses are historical, not religious in nature. While the exact origin is in dispute, most stories seem to follow along a similar theme, that a group of Spanish travelers heading to Santa Fe from El Paso Del Norte (now Cd. Juarez) were attacked and killed by Apache raiders. The dead were buried and the scene marked by crosses. When the Spanish later started settling in this area, they named the area" "El Pueblo del Jardín de Las Cruces" (The Village of the Garden of the Crosses). It was later shortened to Las Cruces when the town was officially founded in 1849.

The gentleman in question has filed the lawsuit on his own behalf, as well as a lawsuit against the public schools for a sculpture that used the 3 cross symbol and against the NMDOT, which put the 3 cross design on the new I-25/US70 interchange. The lawsuit against the school was later dismissed because it was discovered that he lived outside of the Las Cruces school district and thusly had no standing to file a lawsuit on behalf of his daughter (who was actually in the legal custody of her mother/ the parents were divorced) and Gov. Bill Richardson personally ordered the NMDOT to not remove the symbol after the DOT administrators considered removing it in order to avoid a lawsuit. That lawsuit was dismissed as well.

His lawsuits are more of an attention getting method for his little "atheist rights" group which is comprised of about 2-3 members, depending on who you talk to.

[nrvsreck]

Hmm... maybe going a bit overboard on this one, don't ya think? I'm also very liberal and not Christian in the least, but I don't see anything wrong with people marking the sites of where their loved ones died along the highway. I suppose many of them are Christian so... therefore, crosses. And I'd think it very callous for the state DOT's to remove them.

I strongly believe in the separation of church and state, but I'm not buying your argument on this one. :roll:

[PackRatTDI]

Originally Posted by nrvsreck

Hmm... maybe going a bit overboard on this one, don't ya think? I'm also very liberal and not Christian in the least, but I don't see anything wrong with people marking the sites of where their loved ones died along the highway. I suppose many of them are Christian so... therefore, crosses. And I'd think it very callous for the state DOT's to remove them.

I strongly believe in the separation of church and state, but I'm not buying your argument on this one. :roll:

I seem to recall that it was decided that this wasn't a violation of the separation of church and state because it was private individuals putting up the crosses, not the state and it fell under the same category as students holding their own prayer meetings on school property or at intramural activities. The only legal violations may be state specific laws against placing private "signs and memorials" on state right of ways.

The regulations vary from state to state. They're more restrictive in Colorado, Massachussets and Wisconsin, where the law specifically prohibits them. Other states don't seem to take a position. Other states allow a family to have a state maintained sign placed at the scene of a fatality accident, usually restricted to DWI accidents. Colorado changed their law to allow CDOT maintained signs placed at all accident scenes with fatalities that took place after May 1, 2004. The families pay the cost of the sign installation and it's maintained as any other road sign by the DOT.

FWIW, the Spanish name for these memorials is Descansos, which literally means "place of rest"

[bouncer]

I really don't see why you have a problem with this.The family and friends Leaving flowers or crosses or whatever where there families/friends died.It's a sign of respect and grief.