[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by mikey4069

Useless War is hell and you have good days and bad day no war is perfect.

No, they aren't. However, we used to WIN them, and FINISH them, and bring our troops home victoriously.

The same things happen in every war and this war has not gone to plan but what war does.

Yes, we had "setbacks" in WWII. We lost many more lives, and sometimes entire Battalions were overrun and slaughtered. But, we always came back with unrelenting force to turn the tide. But, all in all, WWII WAS well planned, and was executed according to that "plan." We advanced on our objectives and took them. We came to EXPECT that out of our military (not just the troops, but the Commanders and strategists!)
If you "fail to plan" you plan to fail! We PLANNED to win both WWI and WWII. And we won BOTH of them! Enough references for you??

The troops say we're winning and that's where i get my info not from cnn or any mainstream media outlet.

The troops are doing what they are "required" to do. They are not supposed to question their leaders, nor the tactics, nor the outcome of the war. Furthermore.... more and more of the "troops" ARE questioning whether or not we are winning this war, and to say otherwise only shows that you neither listen to ANY media (including foreign, independant sources) NOR that you are listening to ALL of our troops. You are hearing and reciting (parroting) ONLY what YOU want to hear.

IF we lose in Iraq we will never be able to deal with Iran or any other country in the middle east.

You may well be right here. Which is why I am so disconcerted with the WAY we are fighting this war. But, you may not be seeing the whole picture. We defeated Saddam's troops with ease (shock and awe?) We can do the same to Iran. Winning the war against another military force has NEVER been our problem. The Tet Offensive cost the Commies DEARLY! And losing in Vietnam didn't cost us the Phillipines for instance. You are just parroting Bush's doomsday predicitions of what will happen if we don't "stay the course" in Iraq.

I wish someone would tell me why we went to war with Germany ? :roll: :roll:

Granted. We went to war with Germany because they had "allied" themselves with Japan against our ally England, and because the Japanese attacked US! They (Germans) were bombing the heck out of London, and were bent on world domination. We didn't even hardly KNOW about the human rights issues concerning the Jews until we started liberating the "camps."

Furthermore, (and I admit MY history is a bit fuzzy here,) they had attacked Poland and Checkoslavakia. And (I believe) at least one of them was either a signatory to, or protected by, the treaty of Versailles that ended the FIRST WW. [Actually, it is said to have started over the assassination of the Prince of Austria. Can't say as I'm sure what Austria meant to us or anyone.] Same reason we attacked Iraq in '91 over their invasion of Kuwait. But.... now in 2003..... why did we attack Iraq??

WHO had they invaded then?? NO ONE! It is a known fact that Dubya had war plans for the invasion of Iraq being drawn up BEFORE 9/11. Why?? Heck... we weren't even in Afghanistan yet?? ONE reason.... and ONLY one! (the failure to comply with U.N. sanctions was but a Red Herring!) Dubya invaded Iraq to avenge what HE thought was his father's "failure" to march to Bagdhad and defeat Saddam in '91!!! THAT is why the planning was underway from shortly after his innauguration. THAT is why good American soldiers are dying today!! Do you know anyone who has died in this war? Was his life worth G.H.W. Bush's "legacy?"

You sound like you might be a religious sort (no problem with that.) So, you've heard that "Pride goeth before a fall." Dubya's PRIDE has led us to the precipice of the greatest FALL that the American Empire might, or HAS, ever faced! God have MERCY on his soul..... cuz I sure won't!!

I don't care if he IS my President. If I had the power, I'd damn him and his condescending "smirk" to HELL for what he has done to this country!

And you didn't / won't hear THAT from the so-called "biased" media (and there are at least one of each!) And you won't hear it from the troops! You heard it from ME! And I won't "cut and run" from my statements or beliefs.

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by Sans Argonauts

Mikey said: "One thing you wrong about is that our troop are losing this war YOUR WRONG OUR troops are winning this war !! Mainstream media doesn't show us whats really going on over there because if they did it would make pres bush look good ."

This is total BEE ESS!!! First, as Useless pointed out, if we are WINNING, why do we need MORE troops?? Second, mainstream media didn't show us the sniping of our troops, Al Jazeera did! If FOX would have shown us that, would that have made Bush look good?? I don't THINK so! Given the latest revelations of Iranian involvement, how can ANYONE say that we are "winning" this war?? WHAT - give me ONE example - have we accomplished in the last few months of being "hunkered down" in our encampments? SIX helicopters shot down in two weeks.... and we are discussing "IF" we should change our tactics???? JEEEZUS!!! If we are THAT far behind the "learning curve" we have LOST allready!

Absolutely agree 100%. No one can fault our boys over there doing the best they can, when the Dems in particular have, in effect, clipped them from behind. As the character of Sergeant Barnes said in the movie Platoon about, "politicians trying to make us fight this war with one hand tied behind our back."

MORE B.S.!! Democrats voted to give Bush "anything he needed" to fight the war against UBL!! And extended it to the war on Iraq! The present administration is conducting this war.... and THEY failed to provide even enough body armor to protect our faithful troops! Dems didn't do that! Bush & Company have "stifled" the requests of our top commanders in Iraq from DAY ONE, in order to NOT show that we were in any danger of losing this war. Stop putting the blame on the Dems for what YOUR party has done!

We can still WIN! I can't understand all the defeatism in this country. Since when has LOSING a WAR become a virtue in this country?

Yes, we CAN.. IF we get some intelligent and truthfull LEADERSHIP! And again with the B.S.!! Losing a war has NEVER been a virtue in this country. NOT ONE SINGLE DEMOCRAT wants to LOSE this war! Not even Dubya questions our patriotism.... but YOU do?? You "sheeple" of the Bush administration have drank too much of the Koolaid! WE OBJECT to the sinister and untruthful WAY we were involved in this war.... and the INCOMPETENT way it has been waged! What "USED" to be a virtue in this country was the way we stood for PEACE throughout the world.... not aggression and imperialism!! WE USED to stand for "diplomacy" not "shooting from the hip!" What happened to THAT?? We had to be "dragged" into WWII, but we have STARTED WWIII!!! You gonna blame the Democrats for THAT????

The overwhelming vast majority of the American "sheeple" (As Michael Savage so aptly calls us) have STILL failed to realize that if we lose this war, we are looking at the end of America as any kind of viable Superpower in the 21st Century. It will be the end of "Pax Americana."

And YOU fail to realize that it is our ARROGANCE as the only surviving "superpower" that has gotten us INTO this war! Did losing in Vietnam cost us our status as a Superpower? NO.... indeed, it was AFTER that that we won the Cold War without "firing a shot" as Kruschev once said. PAX AMERICANA???? Are you serious?? Reagan WON the cold war while upholding that banner. But BUSH has trampled it into the MUD!! We are now seen throughout the WORLD as the "aggressor nation" we have become!

Furthermore, if we do throw in the collective towel, tuck our tail between our legs roll over on our bellies, and put our legs up in the air, and bring the troops home, and QUIT.... it will not change the inescapable fact, that Mohammed WILL NEVER QUIT!

ARE YOU SURE OF THAT??? Will you not accept the truth to what they say? Are they not saying that they struggle against us BECAUSE we defile their sacred lands with our boots?? Were they fighting us BEFORE we first set military foot on their lands? Before we backed the establishment of Israel with the full force of our military? Before we established bases in Saudi Arabia - home of their holiest shrine, Mecca? I'm not saying that we should abandon Israel! But, I believe we've made some "DIPLOMATIC" mistakes as concerns that issue! We have NEVER understood these people and their primitive concerns! And we don't show any promise of doing so anytime soon!

The cold hard truth that the American people STILL fail to realize ... already the reality of 9/11 has faded and been replaced by the REALLY VITAL issues of contemporary America such as "Dancing With the Stars" and the newest season of "American Idol" and the antics of Brintey, Brangelina, and TomKat... is the inescapable Truth that as long as there is one woman, one man, one child left to serve as a martyr for Islam, Mohammed WILL NEVER QUIT!We are in a battle for the survival of our country and our way of Life as we know it. The entire future of the West is at stake here... not simply... "the situation in Iraq."

I agree with you about how easily we, as Americans, are "distracted" by the likes of American Idol and the death of a playboy bunny! It is sad! But, I believe in my heart, that you are wrong about where they "draw the line." There is really NOTHING in the Koran (even the sick interpretations of it) that compel them to INVADE America and subvert us. If so... they'd have done so LONG ago. These people are primitive and "territorial." They see our MILITARY presence on what they consider THEIR sacred ground as an INVASION of the "infidels."

The war between Christians and Muslims was going on for centuries before WE got involved. And, until then, WE were spared because WE didn't impose ourselves into it. They didn't even HAVE a word for US.... only the Zionists (Israelis.) Our troubles began when we became the "defenders" of their enemy. [ I AM NOT SAYING WE SHOULDN'T HAVE SUPPORTED ISRAEL!!! I AM ONLY TALKING TRUTH TO THE FACTS OF THE SITUATION. ]

But, our CURRENT problem, as immortalized by the events of 9/11, has but ONE real root. It is the presence of American military forces stationed in UBL's homeland of Saudi Arabia!! The country that houses their most holy shrine! This WHOLE sick saga stems from the anger and disillusionment of ONE man, UBL, who offered HIS services to protect his homeland from OTHER Arab forces, and was shunned in favor of AMERICAN military forces.... ON HIS SACRED HOMELAND! THAT is why UBL attacked us on OUR homeland on 9/11!! He twisted the Koran to fit HIS ambitions (not unlike what BUSH has done) because he wants us OUT OF SAUDI ARABIA! It is a TURF WAR!!

Do we NEED to have forces in the Middle East?? I don't know. We certainly never USED them to regain control of the oilfields... and have been paying through the nose for gasoline ever since! Was there a WORLD WAR brewing in this desolate sandbox region?? I don't THINK so! But, there is no escaping the fact that our continued presence there IS THE ROOT of the struggle between the fundamentalist Muslims and the WEST! WHEN.... oh WHEN... will we wake up to THAT FACT, and try a little DIPLOMACY to settle the issue??? One thing is certain, however.... until we DO.... Mohammed will NOT QUIT!! And if it were OUR COUNTRY... and WE felt we were being OCCUPIED.... NEITHER WOULD WE!!!

How many countless lives of American soldiers could be saved if we could, just ONCE walk a mile in another's moccassins? We lost control of the oilfields decades ago! What would we lose if we got our BOOTS off their sacred ground? PRIDE? NO. Economic gain? NO! They STILL want to buy our military goods, CD's, electronics, clothing, etc.! They just don't WANT us on their turf! What part of that do we as Americans fail to understand???

[Sans Argonauts]

Been offline for a few days, but it’s good to have some dialogue on the issue. After all, the success or failure of our current conflict will determine the subsequent course of American History in the 21st Century and possibly beyond, not even to mention the kind of world our children and grandchildren will grow up in. Good, thoughtful, and obviously heartfelt, responses to both mikey and myself. I can certainly understand where you’re coming from. I honestly believe that you and I are looking at the same mountain, but just from different sides of the mountain.

However, we used to WIN them, and FINISH them, and bring our troops home victoriously.

I agree with you here. Every time the civilian leadership of this country has tried to fight the war for the military (i.e. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq) the current mess & chaos we are involved in or some similar military “quagmire” or “Stalemate” has resulted. Leave the fighting of wars to the military and damn the opinion polls or “World outcry” and we could have had this mess finished with a long time ago. In light of this, however, the “senior brass” of the now almost farcical fiasco that Iraq has turned into in their collective consistent “Careerism” to be simply “yes-men” to Rumsfeld and Bush should also be held accountable for the 3100+ American lives and the 115,000+ odd Iraqi lives lost since our merry foray into Baghdad back in 2003.

WWII WAS well planned, and was executed according to that "plan." We advanced on our objectives and took them. We came to EXPECT that out of our military (not just the troops, but the Commanders and strategists!)
If you "fail to plan" you plan to fail! We PLANNED to win both WWI and WWII. And we won BOTH of them!

Agree with you here 100% also. We should have had much more of a “long-term plan” than simply a photo-op of M1 tanks and M2 Bradley's rolling menacingly down the highway beneath Saddam’s crossed sabers and an M88 pulling down a statue of Saddam. I think Bush honestly thought that this was all it would take. I honestly believe that this is as far as any “plan” at all by our great triumvirate of Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld went. They had absolutely no clue as to what to do afterwards. When General ?Shimonoseki? Told them that they didn’t have enough troops to adequately finish the job prior to the invasion, Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld simply went to find other “yes men” who thought it could be done.

The troops are doing what they are "required" to do. They are not supposed to question their leaders, nor the tactics, nor the outcome of the war. “

Agree with you here too.. As I remember from my own experiences carrying an M16 for a living, you do what you’re told. “Ours is not to question why. Ours is but to do or die” etc.

Dubya invaded Iraq to avenge what HE thought was his father's "failure" to march to Bagdhad and defeat Saddam in '91!!! THAT is why the planning was underway from shortly after his innauguration. THAT is why good American soldiers are dying today!! Do you know anyone who has died in this war? Was his life worth G.H.W. Bush's "legacy?"

This is speculation. Absolutely contrary to what you might otherwise believe, I’m no Bush fan by any stretch of the imagination either. While his “final” choices for the Supreme Court were solid, and the tax cuts have been nice, the defining issue of the entire war aside, I think he is to the Left of Hillary Clinton when it comes to Immigration which may ultimately prove in the long-term to be even more of a threat to this country than Iraq EVER was... but we can save this can of worms for another day, another post. I think our triumvirate of Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld were obviously clueless as to the direction to take with the “War on Terror,” but to think they were making secret plans in dark rooms filled with cigar-smoke to conquer Iraq out of a simple desire to avenge his father’s admitted failure in ‘92, this smacks too much of one of the episodes of the “X-Files” with the “Cancer Man” and his cronies or the kind of “Illuminati” BS you hear on “Coast to Coast A.M.” sometimes. For what it’s worth, I STILL think he honestly believed ...based on the faulty intelligence at the time.... that Iraq was fixing to thump us with a nuke. And so in we went ... ready or not. Obviously, as subsequent experience has shown, not. This is troubling for a couple of reasons. #1 It set a precedent in American Foreign Policy.... a “line in the sand” if you will... that “if you possess WMD’s and it doesn’t jibe with US policy... the tanks will roll.” #2 Our reputation and viability as a Superpower in the 21st Century is now at stake. Particularly, with regards now to Iran and North Korea. Perhaps more the former with what appears to be their arming, aiding and abetting of our adversaries in Iraq (how’s that for alliteration). Funny he never mentioned Pakistan, huh? Pakistan, despite all of its superficial posing and posturing otherwise, is an Islamic country that actually has nukes who has never particularly looked upon the U.S. favorably . Let’s not forget both where Daniel Pearl was beheaded and where Osama has been kicking it with his homies (probably hiding in plain sight) for the last 6 years. Yet, with a solid billion Indians (Hindus and Muslims have never particularly been the best of friends) just south of them chomping at the bit to settle the Kashmir issue once and for all, I suppose this probably keeps Pakistan pretty meek on the international scale.

Dubya's PRIDE has led us to the precipice of the greatest FALL that the American Empire might, or HAS, ever faced!

I gotta disagree with your first point, and absolutely agree on your second point. I don’t think it was pride so much as a simple absence of any long-term strategic plan or goal. And yes... we absolutely are now at “the precipice of the greatest fall that the American Empire might, or has ever faced.” Absolutely...

First, as Useless pointed out, if we are WINNING, why do we need MORE troops?? Second, mainstream media didn't show us the sniping of our troops, Al Jazeera did! If FOX would have shown us that, would that have made Bush look good?? I don't THINK so! Given the latest revelations of Iranian involvement, how can ANYONE say that we are "winning" this war?? WHAT - give me ONE example - have we accomplished in the last few months of being "hunkered down" in our encampments? SIX helicopters shot down in two weeks.... and we are discussing "IF" we should change our tactics???? JEEEZUS!!! If we are THAT far behind the "learning curve" we have LOST allready!

As one of the generals prophetically warned prior to ever going into Iraq something along the lines of the old adage “If you break it, you buy it.” We broke Iraq, and now we have bought it.” And I agree, without a major change in tactics, not only are we doomed to fail in Iraq, but the blood of the subsequent Iraqi civilian slaughter will be on our hands... as the aforementioned 115,000+ already is. All other points aside, we should have brought freedom from violence and oppression to Iraq after Saddam, not the opposite.

The present administration is conducting this war.... and THEY failed to provide even enough body armor to protect our faithful troops! Dems didn't do that! Bush & Company have "stifled" the requests of our top commanders in Iraq from DAY ONE, in order to NOT show that we were in any danger of losing this war. Stop putting the blame on the Dems for what YOUR party has done!

I agree 100%. Um... and by the way, I’m an “Independent.”

Furthermore, if we do throw in the collective towel, tuck our tail between our legs roll over on our bellies, and put our legs up in the air, and bring the troops home, and QUIT.... it will not change the inescapable fact, that Mohammed WILL NEVER QUIT!

ARE YOU SURE OF THAT??? Will you not accept the truth to what they say? Are they not saying that they struggle against us BECAUSE we defile their sacred lands with our boots?? Were they fighting us BEFORE we first set military foot on their lands? Before we backed the establishment of Israel with the full force of our military? Before we established bases in Saudi Arabia - home of their holiest shrine, Mecca? I'm not saying that we should abandon Israel! But, I believe we've made some "DIPLOMATIC" mistakes as concerns that issue! We have NEVER understood these people and their primitive concerns! And we don't show any promise of doing so anytime soon!”

I still have to draw the line here. No, they will never quit. Never stop. They are like the “Borg” of “Star Trek” to use a parallel from popular culture. Even if we bailed out of the Middle East completely, totally, for now and henceforth... they would still come after us. It is not our physical PRESENCE there that is the problem... it is our “Culture”, our “Way of Life.” Until “Sharia” is Law everywhere they will never quit... never stop.

But, our CURRENT problem, as immortalized by the events of 9/11, has but ONE real root. It is the presence of American military forces stationed in UBL's homeland of Saudi Arabia!! The country that houses their most holy shrine! This WHOLE sick saga stems from the anger and disillusionment of ONE man, UBL, who offered HIS services to protect his homeland from OTHER Arab forces, and was shunned in favor of AMERICAN military forces.... ON HIS SACRED HOMELAND! THAT is why UBL attacked us on OUR homeland on 9/11!! He twisted the Koran to fit HIS ambitions (not unlike what BUSH has done) because he wants us OUT OF SAUDI ARABIA! It is a TURF WAR!!

I have to disagree here also. 9/1/1 wasn’t the beginning of anything.... it was merely an “escalation” of a conflict that had been going on since 1979. To quote incidents (I’m quoting from Daniel Pipes (http://www.danielpipes.org/article/460) so take these “facts” how you want to):

“America's war on terrorism did not begin in September 2001. It began in November 1979.
That was shortly after Ayatollah Khomeini had seized power in Iran, riding the slogan "Death to America" - and sure enough, the attacks on Americans soon began. In November 1979, a militant Islamic mob took over the U.S. embassy in Tehran, the Iranian capital, and held 52 Americans hostage for the next 444 days.
The rescue team sent to free those hostages in April 1980 suffered eight fatalities, making them the first of militant Islam's many American casualties. Others included:
April 1983: 63 dead at the U.S. embassy in Beirut.
October 1983: 241 dead at the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut.
December 1983: five dead at the U.S. embassy in Kuwait.
January 1984: the president of the American University of Beirut killed.
April 1984: 18 dead near a U.S. airbase in Spain.
September 1984: 16 dead at the U.S. embassy in Beirut (again).
December 1984: Two dead on a plane hijacked to Tehran.
June 1985: One dead on a plane hijacked to Beirut.
After a let-up, the attacks then restarted: Five and 19 dead in Saudi Arabia in 1995 and 1996, 224 dead at the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in August 1998 and 17 dead on the USS Cole in Yemen in October 2000.
Simultaneously, the murderous assault of militant Islam also took place on U.S. soil:
July 1980: an Iranian dissident killed in the Washington, D.C. area.
August 1983: a leader of the Ahmadiyya sect of Islam killed in Canton, Mich.
August 1984: three Indians killed in a suburb of Tacoma, Wash.
September 1986: a doctor killed in Augusta, Ga.
January 1990: an Egyptian freethinker killed in Tucson, Ariz.
November 1990: a Jewish leader killed in New York.
February 1991: an Egyptian Islamist killed in New York.
January 1993: two CIA staff killed outside agency headquarters in Langley, Va.
February 1993: Six people killed at the World Trade Center.
March 1994: an Orthodox Jewish boy killed on the Brooklyn Bridge.
February 1997: a Danish tourist killed on the Empire State building.
October 1999: 217 passengers killed on an EgyptAir flight near New York City.
In all, 800 persons lost their lives in the course of attacks by militant Islam on Americans before September 2001 - more than killed by any other enemy since the Vietnam War. (Further, this listing does not include the dozens more Americans in Israel killed by militant Islamic terrorists.)
And yet, these murders hardly registered. Only with the events of a year ago did Americans finally realize that "Death to America" truly is the battle cry of this era's most dangerous foe, militant Islam.”

Suppose we ought to also add the SLC shooter... Islamic.... who killed five people at the mall there just a day or two ago.

Also, just a final bit of enlightenment to spread some joy and sunshine for everyone, and this brings us all back to the aforementioned potentially catastrophic failure of the Bush administration to secure the US-Mexico border:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=24987

“Arab Terrorists” Crossing Border: Middle Eastern illegals find easy entrance into U.S. from Mexico”

This article is five years old. How much has changed for the worse since then????

Basically, I think we agree on more than we disagree on, golfhobo. It’s the same mountain we are looking at, just from different sides. Maybe not even all that different sides. 8)

[golfhobo]

Sans Argonauts said:

Been offline for a few days, but it’s good to have some dialogue on the issue. After all, the success or failure of our current conflict will determine the subsequent course of American History in the 21st Century and possibly beyond, not even to mention the kind of world our children and grandchildren will grow up in. Good, thoughtful, and obviously heartfelt, responses to both mikey and myself. I can certainly understand where you’re coming from. I honestly believe that you and I are looking at the same mountain, but just from different sides of the mountain.

Yes, I agree that good dialogue is of great value. If only to reconfirm my belief that there are STILL thinking men of both political persuasions out there. Our strength, and indeed our future, depends on our ability to JOIN in bipartisan efforts to further the "constitutional" mandates of our great nation in respect to the World "at large." I spoke a bit harshly with regards to Mikey, because he "waved the flag" in the face of my beloved Democratic Party. I will NOT stand by and have the millions of Americans who prefer a peaceful existence to a "war footing" insinuated to be WEAK or COWARDS! Even President Bush has backed away from calling us "unpatriotic." We ALL see the mountain before us. Some just see the answer a bit differently than others.

I spoke harshly with YOU, Sans Argonauts, ONLY because you seemed to agree 100% with most of what Mikey said. I will not quote each of your replies here, but would ask you to revisit them, and see where they sound "anti-Democratic Party." All the references to "cut and run," "belly up" etc.... are Republican catch phrases that you were parroting.

But, that being neither here nor there, I believe you ARE independant, as many of us are. MOST Americans have a bit of each party/belief in them. But, the pollsters classify us as one or the other. Your original post (for the most part) and your most recent one, clearly show you to be a thinking man, who wants only the best for our country and the world in general. I applaud you for that. I, being a linguist who speaks a bit of Greek and French, also find your login name to be thought provoking. I have always enjoyed your thoughtful posts.

There is no mountain that divides us. We see it from the same vantage point. That of being ON the mountain, watching the frivolous attempts of the masses to climb or conquer it. The Britneys, the Anna Nicoles, the Bush's, the Akhmanidijads. Man will continue to assail the mountain, leaving millions of dead in the process, but few will ever know the truth that rests there.

So, with the greatest of respect, I wil delete the points on which we agreed, and discuss those on which we have yet to.


Dubya invaded Iraq to avenge what HE thought was his father's "failure" to march to Bagdhad and defeat Saddam in '91!!! THAT is why the planning was underway from shortly after his innauguration. THAT is why good American soldiers are dying today!! Do you know anyone who has died in this war? Was his life worth G.H.W. Bush's "legacy?"

This is speculation. Absolutely contrary to what you might otherwise believe, I’m no Bush fan by any stretch of the imagination either. While his “final” choices for the Supreme Court were solid, and the tax cuts have been nice, the defining issue of the entire war aside, I think he is to the Left of Hillary Clinton when it comes to Immigration which may ultimately prove in the long-term to be even more of a threat to this country than Iraq EVER was...

Speculation it may be. But, did you ever see the news reports of how they made a mosaic of Bush Sr.'s face on the pavement in front of the MAIN Iraqi Ministry in Baghdad, after Gulf War I?? They were rubbing it into our nose that we didn't go there and finish the job. They were STOMPING on the face of Bush I every day as they went to work! This ATE on Bush Jr. BIG TIME!! Couple that with the outcry of some Americans that we "should have finished the job!" And, although, Bush I DID finish the job he was "mandated" to do, Junior NEVER forgave his father for not going to Baghdad, nor could he suffer the disgrace of them walking on the image of his father! I STRONGLY believe that our current President is motivated as much, or more, by vengeance over his father's "perceived" failure, as by anything! It is a FACT that he had WAR plans being made up to invade Iraq... when UBL was still in Afghanistan! And it CERTAINLY explains all the "changes" in priorities that led to the WAR in Iraq! And it COULD explain the limited focus of his "WAR." To topple Saddam, and no plan for what would come afterwards. Mission Accomplished..... Indeed!

but we can save this can of worms for another day, another post. I think our triumvirate of Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld were obviously clueless as to the direction to take with the “War on Terror,” but to think they were making secret plans in dark rooms filled with cigar-smoke to conquer Iraq out of a simple desire to avenge his father’s admitted failure in ‘92, this smacks too much of one of the episodes of the “X-Files” with the “Cancer Man” and his cronies or the kind of “Illuminati” BS you hear on “Coast to Coast A.M.” sometimes.

You've HEARD of the "Downing Street Memo" I suppose? I'm NO "tin foil hat" conspiricist! I'm a former intelligence analyst. I think I know a little bit about Diplomatic B.S.!

For what it’s worth, I STILL think he honestly believed ...based on the faulty intelligence at the time.... that Iraq was fixing to thump us with a nuke. And so in we went ... ready or not. Obviously, as subsequent experience has shown, not.

At FIRST, I thought the intelligence was to blame. But, I just couldn't believe it. I know TOO MUCH about the excellent abilities of the intelligence community. Then.... I realized, and had it confirmed.... that he forced his top Intelligence Aids to GIVE him the intel that he WANTED to hear, to support his plans.... allready in place.... to invade IRAQ! I'm sorry, and I HATE to say it.... but THIS President has manipulated every "resource" at his disposal (including congress) to wage a WAR of HIS choosing, whether you believe it was for the reasons "I" stated, or for others. The facts are THERE.

This is troubling for a couple of reasons. #1 It set a precedent in American Foreign Policy.... a “line in the sand” if you will... that “if you possess WMD’s and it doesn’t jibe with US policy... the tanks will roll.”

Actually, it is the FIRST time in American History that we have STARTED a war, a "pre-emptive" war" for ANY reason!

#2 Our reputation and viability as a Superpower in the 21st Century is now at stake.

Russia, the 'vanquished" Superpower that used to keep us in check, is now openly slandering us as being the "bully" on the block! How's THAT for "a turn of the worm?"

Particularly, with regards now to Iran and North Korea. Perhaps more the former with what appears to be their arming, aiding and abetting of our adversaries in Iraq (how’s that for alliteration). Funny he never mentioned Pakistan, huh? Pakistan, despite all of its superficial posing and posturing otherwise, is an Islamic country that actually has nukes who has never particularly looked upon the U.S. favorably . Let’s not forget both where Daniel Pearl was beheaded and where Osama has been kicking it with his homies (probably hiding in plain sight) for the last 6 years.

Let's not also forget where UBL came from. Saudi Arabia! They want our jet fighters, yet they "nationalized" our Oil Industry concerns. They have been OPENLY silent as to our "little misfortunes" in the Middle East.

Yet, with a solid billion Indians (Hindus and Muslims have never particularly been the best of friends) just south of them chomping at the bit to settle the Kashmir issue once and for all, I suppose this probably keeps Pakistan pretty meek on the international scale.

Believe it or not, the Kashmir issue is just about settled. Nuclear "tie" just like US and Russia. They've decided that BOMBS don't FEED people!

Dubya's PRIDE has led us to the precipice of the greatest FALL that the American Empire might, or HAS, ever faced!

I gotta disagree with your first point, and absolutely agree on your second point. I don’t think it was pride so much as a simple absence of any long-term strategic plan or goal. And yes... we absolutely are now at “the precipice of the greatest fall that the American Empire might, or has ever faced.” Absolutely...

I maintain that PRIDE is at the root of the problem. What YOU are suggesting, and I agree, is IGNORANCE and INCOMPETENCE!! Either way, he is a DANGER to our country and our way of life!! We, as Americans, cannot AFFORD to have an "ignorant" President who has "no idea" how to conduct the war that he feels compelled to wage!

The rest of YOUR post, "I" will save for another time. I have alot to say about the Fundamentalist Muslims, and ther Jihad! But, it will have to wait.

Hobo