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Thread: 34 Hour Restart & DOT Regs

  1. #61
    shyykatt is offline Senior Board Member
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    Thats fine; then ya'll can have a contest of which of us gals gets all bent out of shape first! :lol: :P (and the winner is......)

    On 2nd thought, I suck @ arguing, and don't wanna intentionally make an azz of myself- I'll just let her keep going :lol:

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    kc0iv is offline Senior Board Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by shyykatt
    Thats fine; then ya'll can have a contest of which of us gals gets all bent out of shape first! :lol: :P (and the winner is......)

    On 2nd thought, I suck @ arguing, and don't wanna intentionally make an azz of myself- I'll just let her keep going :lol:
    There is a couple of requirements for such a occupation. (1) Must be a redhead. (2) Refuse to accept you don't know everything.

    kc0iv

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    Default Re: 34 hour restart

    Quote Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago
    I wonder how DOT would react to seeing "peeing" on the comment line if you flagged it, though. :lol:
    Haven't a clue, but thought about creating a dummy log with that and a few other items to that effect, scanning it, and posting it to this thread. 8)

  5. #64
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    Default Re: 34 hour restart

    Quote Originally Posted by kjax
    Quote Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago
    I wonder how DOT would react to seeing "peeing" on the comment line if you flagged it, though. :lol:
    Haven't a clue, but thought about creating a dummy log with that and a few other items to that effect, scanning it, and posting it to this thread. 8)
    :lol: :lol: :lol:

  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawn
    Yes. If you gain hours @ midnight you have them hours to drive.
    That isn't how the HOS runs, Dawn. Way to screw up the regs again. :roll: You don't gain hours at midnight.
    Could you enlighten me on this, Rev?? I sure thought that was how it worked. If (as 90% do) your company operates on a midnight to midnight schedule.... just when do YOU say that you gain back your hours?

    Of course, you don't gain hours EVERY midnight.... just starting at the end of the 8th day on the road. But, I believe that was understood.
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  7. #66
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    Default Re: 34 hour restart

    Quote Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago
    Quote Originally Posted by golfhobo
    Personally.... I would be MORE interested in the answers given by the 20 DOT officers than I would the "experiences" of the drivers who have never been questioned, however.....
    Unfortunately, what many DOT officers "say" and what they "do" are two completely different things. The same applies to drivers.

    True but, I'd still rather hear what THEY have to say about it.

    BEFORE I was enlightened as to the guidance concerning logging a restart in a way that reflected your activities, I used to log all 34 straight in the sleeper. That was how I was shown to do it.

    During my first, and only, roadside credentials inspection, the DOT officer noticed the way I logged my "restart," and asked me point blank, "Do you ALWAYS spend (or log) your entire restart in the sleeper?"

    Being a rookie, I said, "Well... yeah.... um.... that's the way I was told to do it."

    He didn't ticket me for it, NOR mention it on the inspection report. However.... I got the point of his question. I'm pretty sure HE didn't "believe" I spent the whole time in the sleeper!
    The reason he didn't hand you a ticket is because he had no way to prove that you didn't spend the entire 34 in the sleeper. You did, however, get his point, which was to log it as you do it, which is what I advocated from the beginning. What Dawn doesn't take into account is that it is absolutely possible to spend 34 straight hours in the sleeper, in which case, it needs to be logged as such. Running out to take a 5 minute bathroom break doesn't require a duty status change from line 2 to line 1. I wonder how DOT would react to seeing "peeing" on the comment line if you flagged it, though. :lol:

    :lol: Why bother flaggin it? Just hang it out the window and water the parking lot. Then, you don't even have to show getting out of the truck! :wink:

    The Rev mentioned that he had logged the same in the same way several times. However... he didn't mention whether those logsheets were inspected by a DOT officer.
    Yes.

    I find nothing wrong with the information and advice that Dawn has given concerning this topic. She acurately quoted the "guidance" that says it should be logged in a way that reflects your actions. Now.... I'm not going to log line 1 EVERY time I get out of the truck! If I spend 34 hours at a truckstop, I will log the majority of daylight hours on line 1, and AT LEAST 8 hours during the night on line 2 using CONSECUTIVE time blocks.
    Look at what she said again, and my reply to it, and perhaps you will understand. Absolute answers, such as the one she gave, don't fit every situation, and therefore are wrong. I doubt I am the only CDL holder who is capable of spending 34 consecutive hours in the sleeper berth without getting out of the truck.

    I agree about the absolute answers [like "these are the facts." :wink: ] I have addressed that many times while discussing the HOS. However, it IS difficult to show EVERY exception, just as the REGS themselves do, without it getting rather confusing. And personally, there's no way "I" would spend all 34 hrs in the truck!

    This bickering is getting OLD.
    Then stop clicking on the threads. :roll:

    Gotta show up to make sure some of y'all don't give out the wrong info! :lol:

    I was told that, in this case, it would be WISE to have a motel receipt. It has been well documented that, IF you end up in an accident that kills someone, (and I'm not a doomsayer type!) YOU will not be able to prove that you got ANY sleep, and a good lawyer may have you paying for the rest of your life.
    Please explain, golfhobo, how a motel receipt proves you obtained sleep. I've found it more difficult to get sleep in a hotel room than my truck (you know, the crappy mattresses and the cable TV and all). A motel receipt provides no more proof than a log book page.

    I agree that it is not absolute proof.... nothing except 24 hr video surveillance WOULD be. But, my understanding is that it at least shows the INTENT to get sleep. As you say, even logging 34 in the sleeper doesn't PROVE you got any sleep. But, logging 34 on line 1, without providing a motel receipt, has been used to show that the driver MAY HAVE spent ALL his time out of the truck, in a T/S or bar or casino. (This only applies, of course, to being away from home or terminal.)

    When you are at home, and log a restart on line 1, there is no PROOF that you got any sleep, but the fact that you have a bedroom at home, shows INTENT.... just as a motel receipt would IF you logged all 34 on line 1 while away from home.


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  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago
    The world would be a much better place as well, if all CMV operators only logged 8.75 hours per day. :wink:
    Hmmm...... MIGHT be...... but where would we all PARK???

    And if you live on the East coast, and I'm bringing your veggies from Cali, your squash might get a little "squishy." :lol:

    Besides, that would require about a 1/3rd increase in the number of trucks on the roads. Naw.... I say the world would be better if ALL trucks were run as TEAMS.

    Fewer trucks on roads and truckstops. More freight delivered ON TIME. More drivers getting adequate HOMETIME. Less accidents from sleepy drivers (although this is part of what you meant.) Fewer divorces, less people leaving the industry..... I could go on.

    Just a thought. Not really advocating it. I love it when I get to go solo, too! As I am right now.
    Remember... friends are few and far between.

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  9. #68
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    KayCee said:

    Several times when I was driving I would take my 34 hour reset at someone's house. Needless to say no receipt.
    This is a good and valid point. However, if it were me, I'd at least say "friends house" in the remarks section.

    I'd have to go back and look at my logs to be sure but I think I always showed my resets as off-duty. I can't recall ever showing sleeper as part of a reset. I might have but I doubt it.
    I don't have a problem with this. However, the guidance says to do otherwise.

    Just because a D.O.T. inspector doesn't believe your entry doesn't mean he/she can write a ticket that will hold up in court. He/she has to be able to prove the entry is false.
    I don't even KNOW that such a ticket could be written. Violating the "guidance" is not necessarily violating the REG. However, IF you logged it all on line 2, and he can get videotape that shows you in the casino, I suppose he COULD prove falsification in court, if it came to that.

    There is nothing that requires you to have any time shown while you are off duty for sleep. As just one of many examples. I could show I am off duty during my 34 hour reset and spend the full time gambling in Las Vegas. Get back in my truck after 34 hours and start driving (after the required pre-trip) and be fully legal. Maybe not wise but legal.
    I agree with what you say. There is no requirement to show time sleeping for either a RESET or a 10 hour consecutive break. However, if you were in a fatal accident, and they had enough videotape evidence to show you spent ALL that time in the casino, I'm quite sure that they CAN make a charge stick in court. All they would have to do is show that the INTENT of the regs is for you to get recuperative rest/sleep (which would be easy to do,) and that although you had TIME to do so.... you did not avail yourself of the opportunity. Therefore, you operated a CMV in an "unsafe" manner causing the death of another person. Sorry.... I think you're going to jail.

    There's a lot more to operating a CMV "legally" than just how you log it.
    Remember... friends are few and far between.

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  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfhobo
    Quote Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawn
    Yes. If you gain hours @ midnight you have them hours to drive.
    That isn't how the HOS runs, Dawn. Way to screw up the regs again. :roll: You don't gain hours at midnight.
    Could you enlighten me on this, Rev?? I sure thought that was how it worked. If (as 90% do) your company operates on a midnight to midnight schedule.... just when do YOU say that you gain back your hours?

    Of course, you don't gain hours EVERY midnight.... just starting at the end of the 8th day on the road. But, I believe that was understood.
    You gain your hours as they come off. You don't gain a "chunk" of hours at midnight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago
    Quote Originally Posted by golfhobo
    Quote Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawn
    Yes. If you gain hours @ midnight you have them hours to drive.
    That isn't how the HOS runs, Dawn. Way to screw up the regs again. :roll: You don't gain hours at midnight.
    Could you enlighten me on this, Rev?? I sure thought that was how it worked. If (as 90% do) your company operates on a midnight to midnight schedule.... just when do YOU say that you gain back your hours?

    Of course, you don't gain hours EVERY midnight.... just starting at the end of the 8th day on the road. But, I believe that was understood.
    You gain your hours as they come off. You don't gain a "chunk" of hours at midnight.

    :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

    Ummm.... could you cite the reg? I'm having a real hard time believing THIS one!

    Dawn.... clean up on aisle 5 AGAIN! :lol:
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  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfhobo
    :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

    Ummm.... could you cite the reg?
    No. Now ask me why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago
    Quote Originally Posted by golfhobo
    :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

    Ummm.... could you cite the reg?
    No. Now ask me why.
    Don't HAVE to ask you why. Because it doesn't exist and you CAN'T cite it.
    Remember... friends are few and far between.

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  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfhobo
    Quote Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago
    Quote Originally Posted by golfhobo
    :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

    Ummm.... could you cite the reg?
    No. Now ask me why.
    Don't HAVE to ask you why. Because it doesn't exist and you CAN'T cite it.
    Wrong answer. Try again.

  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago
    Quote Originally Posted by golfhobo
    Quote Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago
    Quote Originally Posted by golfhobo
    :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

    Ummm.... could you cite the reg?
    No. Now ask me why.
    Don't HAVE to ask you why. Because it doesn't exist and you CAN'T cite it.
    Wrong answer. Try again.
    Umm.... could it be because I hurt your widdle feelings again when I referenced the "Sirius" debate? :roll:

    Lighten up, Rev. For someone who likes to dish it out, you sure can't take it.

    Now, back to the subject. Since, if you're right.... Uturn has given someone the wrong info on another thread.

    According to "my interpretation" of what you said (which, if it was wrong, is the reason I asked for you to enlighten me)......

    If on day one of 8, (midnight to midnight operation) a driver starts driving at 6 a.m. and works 12 hours, then at midnight of day 8, he would have to wait until 6 a.m. to start driving again.

    I don't believe this is the case, and I respectfully request that you cite ANY regulation OR guidance that suggests you are right.

    I'm not sure there even IS a reg that explains it, but I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere. And I KNOW that I was taught in school AND by my trainer, that you DO, in fact, get the whole "chunk" of your 1st day hours back at the BEGINNING of your 9th day. For most of us, that would be at midnight. (Of course, the 14 hour rule would still apply.)
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  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfhobo
    Umm.... could it be because I hurt your widdle feelings again when I referenced the "Sirius" debate? :roll:
    I have no idea what you are talking about. Try again.

    Lighten up, Rev. For someone who likes to dish it out, you sure can't take it.
    :?:

    Now, back to the subject. Since, if you're right.... Uturn has given someone the wrong info on another thread.

    According to "my interpretation" of what you said (which, if it was wrong, is the reason I asked for you to enlighten me)......

    If on day one of 8, (midnight to midnight operation) a driver starts driving at 6 a.m. and works 12 hours, then at midnight of day 8, he would have to wait until 6 a.m. to start driving again.
    Nope. If the driver worked 12 hours a day for 8 days, he would be in violation of the 70 hour rule. But, let's assume that he didn't violate the 70 hour rule, and simply used less hours certain days (which is what I am assuming you meant). In that case, then it could be possible that he has to wait until 6:00 a.m. on day 9 to start driving again.

    I don't believe this is the case, and I respectfully request that you cite ANY regulation OR guidance that suggests you are right.

    I'm not sure there even IS a reg that explains it, but I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere. And I KNOW that I was taught in school AND by my trainer, that you DO, in fact, get the whole "chunk" of your 1st day hours back at the BEGINNING of your 9th day. For most of us, that would be at midnight. (Of course, the 14 hour rule would still apply.)
    What you keep referring to, and what Dawn keeps referring to, is this "midnight to midnight" operation. It doesn't exist, other than on the recap (which isn't even required by the FMCSA). The only way a true "midnight to midnight" operation exists, is if you are on duty 14 hours a day, and off for 10 hours. Anything less than that isn't a midnight to midnight operation. You don't gain your hours back at midnight. You gain them back when your 10 hours off duty is satisfied.

    The 60 and 70 hour rule is a completely different story. A true "midnight to midnight" operation would run out of hours in 5 days, forcing a 34 hour reset to continue operating. And even then, you wouldn't gain your 70 hours back at midnight - you'd gain them back when the 34 hour reset is complete.

    And even then, the 60/70 rule doesn't have to begin or end at midnight. It can begin or end at any time of the day:

    395.3 Maximum driving time for property-carrying vehicles.

    (c)(1) Any period of 7 consecutive days may end with the beginning of any off-duty period of 34 or more consecutive hours; or

    (c)(2) Any period of 8 consecutive days may end with the beginning of any off-duty period of 34 or more consecutive hours.
    My "8 consecutive days" can begin as soon as I complete a 34 hour reset. It could be at ANY time of the day. Ultimately, the motor carrier (not the FMCSA) makes the decision as to when the 24 hour day starts:

    395.8 Driver's record of duty status.

    (a) Except for a private motor carrier of passengers (nonbusiness), every motor carrier shall require every driver used by the motor carrier to record his/her duty status for each 24 hour period using the methods prescribed in either paragraphs (a)(1) or (2) of this section.

    (d) The following information must be included on the form in addition to the grid:

    (d)(1) Date;

    (d)(2) Total miles driving today;

    (d)(3) Truck or tractor and trailer number;

    (d)(4) Name of carrier;

    (d)(5) Driver's signature/certification;

    (d)(6) 24 hour period starting time (e.g., midnight, 9:00 a.m., noon, 3:00 p.m.);
    As you can see, the motor carrier can decide when the 24 hour clock starts. It doesn't have to start at midnight.

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    Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:07 pm by COASTIE

    From what I been reading on here, it my understanding as long as you got hours coming back on you can still drive up to the max number of hours you have coming back on each day. Same as before they changed the rules.
    Dawn said:

    Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:16 pm

    Yes. If you gain hours @ midnight you have them hours to drive. You do not have to take a 34 hour restart.


    Rev.Vassago said:

    Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:39 pm Post subject:

    Dawn wrote:
    Yes. If you gain hours @ midnight you have them hours to drive.


    That isn't how the HOS runs, Dawn. Way to screw up the regs again. You don't gain hours at midnight.
    The beginning of this thread dealt with the 34 hour restart. At the point that I referenced above, the discussion changed to how to gain hours back on your 70 to AVOID a 34 hour restart.

    NOW you say:

    But, let's assume that he didn't violate the 70 hour rule, and simply used less hours certain days (which is what I am assuming you meant).
    YES! I ONLY referred to a random amount of hours worked on the 1st day.

    In that case, then it could be possible that he has to wait until 6:00 a.m. on day 9 to start driving again.
    We were not talking about when he could START driving again. We were discussing WHEN he regained his hours available again.... and I clearly stated later that the 11/14 hour rule still applied. I believe that even the original statement by Coastie was clear as to his intention, which was NOT to be able to just keep driving continuously, but rather to avoid a 34 hour restart.

    What you keep referring to, and what Dawn keeps referring to, is this "midnight to midnight" operation. It doesn't exist, other than on the recap (which isn't even required by the FMCSA). The only way a true "midnight to midnight" operation exists, is if you are on duty 14 hours a day, and off for 10 hours. Anything less than that isn't a midnight to midnight operation. You don't gain your hours back at midnight. You gain them back when your 10 hours off duty is satisfied.
    It is PRECISELY the "recap" as YOU refer to it that we were discussing. ALL carriers are required to state their 24 hour duty period, and in this case, we were assuming a midnight to midnight duty cycle - used for logging purposes. The recap is NOT required to be written down.... but it is required to be considered for the purpose of getting hours back and not violating the 60/70 rule.

    There is no requirement, and no one but you thinks there is, that a person work 14 hours a day and takes 10 off to be considered on a 24 hour midnight to midnight operation. It DOES in fact, refer ONLY to his RODS.

    If your RODS are kept on a midnight to midnight basis, you most certainly DO regain the "chunk" of hours used during that same cycle 8 days back - AT MIDNIGHT. The fact that he is still on his 10 hour break is immaterial except that it means he cannot drive (as you say and so did I) until he has had the required break. But, he got his hours BACK at midnight. And they are the total number of hours driven between midnight and midnight on the 8th day back.

    Let's say on that 1st day, he started at 6 p.m. and drove until 5 a.m. on the next day. At midnight on the 8th day, he would get back the 6 hours (only) that he drove prior to midnight the first day. By NOW.... he may be on a different schedule and completes his 10 hour break at midnight. He IMMEDIATELY gets those 6 hours back (subject to the 11/14 hour rule.) He does NOT have to wait or even GET to wait until sometime in the morning (or 6 p.m.) and then get all 11 hours back.

    Obviously, if he hasn't completed his 10 hour break at midnight on the 8th day, he cannot DRIVE until he has. But, he got his 6 hours ONLY back at midnight. They are now available to use as soon as he is legal to drive again.

    The 60 and 70 hour rule is a completely different story
    NO.... it is the story we were discussing at this point in the thread. Try to keep up! :wink:

    A true "midnight to midnight" operation would run out of hours in 5 days, forcing a 34 hour reset to continue operating.
    Your definition of such is NOT what is referenced MANY times in the regs.

    And even then, you wouldn't gain your 70 hours back at midnight
    No one referred to getting all 70 back. We were talking about getting back the hours used on the FIRST of 8 days on your RODS.

    And even then, the 60/70 rule doesn't have to begin or end at midnight. It can begin or end at any time of the day:
    This is possibly the only TRUE statement you've made on this topic. Too bad NO ONE was debating it.

    As you can see, the motor carrier can decide when the 24 hour clock starts. It doesn't have to start at midnight.
    Okay, second correct point. Which, if you'll read Dawn's original reply was the reason she SPECIFIED midnight as a given condition for the purpose of the discussion.

    It is quite possible that you misunderstood a point or two in the discussion. I KNOW you know your stuff, which is why I was in such disbelief when you posted what you did. I hope somehow or another, I have clarified my and others' position for you.

    No one said anything about getting your 70 back at midnight in conjunction with a 34 hour reset. If YOUR company works/logs on a midnight to midnight basis - as the daily grid is set up for - you get back the hours worked for THAT log sheet at midnight 8 days later. If you work on a 9 to 9 basis or something like that, you would get the hours worked during THAT 1st 24 hour period back at THAT respective time on day 9.

    Are we ALL on the same page now?
    Remember... friends are few and far between.

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    Quote Originally Posted by golfhobo
    Are we ALL on the same page now?
    Nope

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago
    Quote Originally Posted by golfhobo
    Are we ALL on the same page now?
    Nope
    Too bad. I think the REST of us are.

    Dang your quick..... I JUST hit the submit button! :lol:
    Remember... friends are few and far between.

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    Quote Originally Posted by golfhobo
    Quote Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago
    Quote Originally Posted by golfhobo
    Are we ALL on the same page now?
    Nope
    Too bad. I think the REST of us are.
    Nope. You and Dawn are in a completely different book. I think it is the HOS regulations for Kazakhstan or something.

    Dang your quick..... I JUST hit the submit button! :lol:
    Lightning quick, and dead on accurate.

    Still waiting for your response HERE

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    Assuming a 24/7 operation using the 70 hour rule:

    After a 34 hour reset, your 70 hours are totally gained back.

    The exact time a "log day" (for want of a better term) starts at what ever time your carrier has its log books set up at.

    A driver may gain some hours back using the "old" method of waiting for the 9th previous day to drop off. If the company uses a midnight to midnight log book then those hours come back at midnight. If they use a noon to noon log book then those hours come back at noon and so forth.

    Now just because a driver has hours gained back does not mean they can immediately start running again. They still must be in compliance with the 11 and 14 hour rules.

    The 34 hour restart is not a requirement per the FMCSA.

    Also under the latest rules, you can be over your 70 and in violation and still gain your 70 back after the 34 hours. When the first revision came out you could not do this if you were in violation. Just because a driver is over his 70 does not mean a violation has occured. Same with being over on the 14. All the 14 and 70 hours rules state is that a person can not drive upon reaching those limits, the driver may continue to work.
    Finding the right trucking company is like finding the right person to marry. I really comes down to finding one whose BS you can put up with and who can put up wih yours.

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