Question about off duty/14 hour rule/sleeper berth

[madii'swife]

Scenerio: A driver goes on duty at 6 am. He drives for 8 hours til 2 pm. He's tired so he pulls over and rests for 3 hours. Does this stop the 14 hour clock or is he still only allowed to be on duty until 8 pm? My husband and his trainer are arguing over this. Thanks.

[Rev.Vassago]

Scenerio: A driver goes on duty at 6 am. He drives for 8 hours til 2 pm. He's tired so he pulls over and rests for 3 hours. Does this stop the 14 hour clock or is he still only allowed to be on duty until 8 pm? My husband and his trainer are arguing over this. Thanks.

No, it doesn't stop the clock. The 14 hour clock only stops for an 8 hour break or longer. He must stop driving at 8 pm. He can, however, remain ON DUTY (not driving) after the 14th hour. The 14 hour rule only applies to driving.

[madii'swife]

Thanks Rev
And I think I'm going to faint from shock. Rev and Dawn agreed on something!! :shock: :shock: :? Now I know it must be right.

[golfhobo]

I believe that the reason your husband's trainer is arguing this point, is that under the OLD rules, short breaks WOULD extend (what was then) the 15 hour clock.

MANY, many, trainers are making this mistake! I had to explain it to at least TWO trainers, AND my safety director! :shock:

Does your husband take a laptop with him? If so... make sure he has the link to the fmcsa site handy. Also... the section on logbook examples is VERY helpful.

BTW.... I think you just RUINED the Rev's day!

[kreeper01]

Please Read the post below.

[kreeper01]

Scenerio: A driver goes on duty at 6 am. He drives for 8 hours til 2 pm. He's tired so he pulls over and rests for 3 hours. Does this stop the 14 hour clock or is he still only allowed to be on duty until 8 pm? My husband and his trainer are arguing over this. Thanks.

No, it doesn't stop the clock. The 14 hour clock only stops for an 8 hour break or longer. He must stop driving at 8 pm. He can, however, remain ON DUTY (not driving) after the 14th hour. The 14 hour rule only applies to driving.

Rev, i must dispute your claim of the 14 hour rule as far as driving is concerned.

the 14 hours is in essence the combinations of lines 1, 3 and 4. when you are in the bunk for a minimum of 8 hours, you must show a 15 minute pre trip (i.e. on duty not driving) hence the words "on duty". when you are "on duty" either "on duty, not driving", "on duty driving" or "off duty", it still counts against your 14 hours.

I suggest to you madii'swife, is to get a copy of the "Safety Regulations" book and read section 395. it clearly states that out of 14 hours, you have 11 of those to drive. It also states that you have a 10 hour break, but it does not state you can take 5 hours off duty and 5 hours in the bunk. Alot of people may dispute this, however, if it is not written in the safety regulations book, then i am legally able to take 5 hours off duty and 5 hours in the bunk, so long as that truck does not move for 10 consecitive hours.

Also, if your truck needs fuel, you have to log it as "on duty, not driving" for 15 minutes, which does count against your 14 hours of on duty.

Rev, i do not know where you came up with what you wrote? When you are on line 1, 3 and 4 you are considered to be "on duty", the only way you can stop that 14 hour clock from ticking away is to log it on line 2 for a "minimum of 8 hours, no more than 10"!!!!

As i posted above, Rev, pull out your Safety Regulations book and pay close attention to section 395, word for word.

[madii'swife]

I believe that the reason your husband's trainer is arguing this point, is that under the OLD rules, short breaks WOULD extend (what was then) the 15 hour clock.

MANY, many, trainers are making this mistake! I had to explain it to at least TWO trainers, AND my safety director! :shock:

Does your husband take a laptop with him? If so... make sure he has the link to the fmcsa site handy. Also... the section on logbook examples is VERY helpful.

Actually it was my husband who had gotten the wrong impression on this one. His trainer is using it as a reason to not run legal logs though, but thats a whole other issue.
No he does not have a laptop with him, we haven't been able to afford one yet. He has his "little green book" as he called it, but hadn't dug into it yet.

BTW.... I think you just RUINED the Rev's day!

I think his day was well ruined before me according to his posts! :? However, I was hoping to hear from him as he seems very knowledgable and able to answer simply and easily.

[mike3fan]

The rule clearly states that you cannot DRIVE after 14 hours on duty,it does not say anything about being on duty after 14 hrs,once again the Rev is right about this issue.

Yes the 14 hrs are a total of lines 1,3,4,but the 14 hrs only comes into play in regards to your ability to drive after reaching the 14th hour after coming on duty,unless a 8 hr break is taken in that 14 hr time frame,but that just confuses people more...sry

[kc0iv]

Rev, i must dispute your claim of the 14 hour rule as far as driving is concerned.

the 14 hours is in essence the combinations of lines 1, 3 and 4. when you are in the bunk for a minimum of 8 hours, you must show a 15 minute pre trip (i.e. on duty not driving) hence the words "on duty". when you are "on duty" either "on duty, not driving", "on duty driving" or "off duty", it still counts against your 14 hours.

I suggest to you madii'swife, is to get a copy of the "Safety Regulations" book and read section 395. it clearly states that out of 14 hours, you have 11 of those to drive. It also states that you have a 10 hour break, but it does not state you can take 5 hours off duty and 5 hours in the bunk. Alot of people may dispute this, however, if it is not written in the safety regulations book, then i am legally able to take 5 hours off duty and 5 hours in the bunk, so long as that truck does not move for 10 consecitive hours.

Also, if your truck needs fuel, you have to log it as "on duty, not driving" for 15 minutes, which does count against your 14 hours of on duty.

Rev, i do not know where you came up with what you wrote? When you are on line 1, 3 and 4 you are considered to be "on duty", the only way you can stop that 14 hour clock from ticking away is to log it on line 2 for a "minimum of 8 hours, no more than 10"!!!!

As i posted above, Rev, pull out your Safety Regulations book and pay close attention to section 395, word for word.

The 14-hour driving window and the 10-hour off-duty requirement of today's rule combine to move most drivers toward a 24-hour cycle, which allows the body to operate in accord with its normal circadian rhythm and the driver to sleep on the same schedule each day. A driver may remain on duty after the 14-hour window closes or go off duty after the 11th hour of driving, in each case returning to work after 10 hours off duty on something other than a 24-hour cycle.

Final Rule

As mike3fan says "The rule clearly states that you cannot DRIVE after 14 hours on duty,it does not say anything about being on duty after 14 hrs,once again the Rev is right about this issue.."

Secondly, There is no rule that REQUIRES any amount of time for a post-trip or pre-trip time. Which I contend can not be done in 15 minutes if done correctly.

kc0iv

[Rev.Vassago]

Rev, i must dispute your claim of the 14 hour rule as far as driving is concerned.

Then please show a regulation that states you can drive AFTER the 14th hour when there is no 8 hour or longer break involved.

the 14 hours is in essence the combinations of lines 1, 3 and 4. when you are in the bunk for a minimum of 8 hours, you must show a 15 minute pre trip (i.e. on duty not driving) hence the words "on duty". when you are "on duty" either "on duty, not driving", "on duty driving" or "off duty", it still counts against your 14 hours.

Please cite the regulation that says you have to show a 15 minute pretrip after you are in the bunk for 8 hours. Besides - that doesn't change the scenario that madii'sWife gave - the driver still can not drive after the 14th hour, even though he can remain ON DUTY (not driving).

I suggest to you madii'swife, is to get a copy of the "Safety Regulations" book and read section 395. it clearly states that out of 14 hours, you have 11 of those to drive. It also states that you have a 10 hour break, but it does not state you can take 5 hours off duty and 5 hours in the bunk. Alot of people may dispute this, however, if it is not written in the safety regulations book, then i am legally able to take 5 hours off duty and 5 hours in the bunk, so long as that truck does not move for 10 consecitive hours.

You are absolutely right, but this is not the question that madii'swife asked. She wanted to know if a 3 hour break (by itself) would stop the 14 hour clock, which it won't.

Also, if your truck needs fuel, you have to log it as "on duty, not driving" for 15 minutes, which does count against your 14 hours of on duty.

Please cite the regulation for that one as well. The FMCSA regs only state that fueling is ON DUTY (not driving). The regulations also state that ANY activity under 15 minutes can be "flagged".

Rev, i do not know where you came up with what you wrote? When you are on line 1, 3 and 4 you are considered to be "on duty", the only way you can stop that 14 hour clock from ticking away is to log it on line 2 for a "minimum of 8 hours, no more than 10"!!!!

The "no more than 10" is no longer valid. ANY period of 8 hours or more will stop the 14 hour clock, even if it is longer than 10 hours.

[color=blue]G-3. How does a driver who is utilizing the sleeper berth provision calculate his or her compliance with the 14-hour rule?

A sleeper-berth period of at least 8 consecutive hours is excluded from calculation of the 14-hour limitation. All other sleeper berth periods are included in the 14-hour calculation (unless part of a sleeper-berth/off-duty combination of 10 or more consecutive hours).

(g) Sleeper berths.

(1) General property-carrying commercial motor vehicle. A driver who
is driving a property-carrying commercial motor vehicle that is equipped
with a sleeper berth, as defined in Sec. Sec. 395.2 and 393.76 of this subchapter, may accumulate the equivalent of 10 consecutive hours of off-duty time by taking a combination of at least 10 consecutive hours off-duty and sleeper berth time; or by taking two periods of rest in the sleeper berth, providing:

(i) Neither rest period is shorter than two hours;

(ii) The driving time in the period immediately before and after
each rest period, when added together, does not exceed 11 hours;

(iii) The driver does not drive after the 14th hour after coming on
duty following 10 hours off duty, where the 14th hour is calculated:

(A) by excluding any sleeper berth period of at least 2 hours which,
when added to a subsequent sleeper berth period, totals at least 10
hours, and

(B) by including all on-duty time, all off-duty time not spent in
the sleeper berth, all sleeper berth periods of less than 2 hours, and
any sleeper berth period not described in paragraph (g)(1)(iii)(A); and

(iv) The driver may not return to driving subject to the normal
limits under Sec. 395.3 without taking at least 10 consecutive hours
off duty, at least 10 consecutive hours in the sleeper berth, or a
combination of at least 10 consecutive hours off duty and sleeper berth
time.

As i posted above, Rev, pull out your Safety Regulations book and pay close attention to section 395, word for word.

I don't see where anything I stated is incorrect. The 3 hour sleeper berth break that madii'swife spoke of would not stop the 14 hour clock. What are you getting at? :?

I think you are mis-reading what I wrote.

[golfhobo]

Well... I don't know what happened to the Rev's response to my little joke, but I suspect a mod zapped it! So be it.

I don't know what Kreeper wrote in his first post that he edited out, but it doesn't matter.

As for Kreeper's second post.... it is somewhat correct, mostly confusing, and doesn't in any way truely contradict what the Rev wrote.

The Rev knows his rules! (Almost as well as I do! )

I guess what Kreeper says about the 14 hour rule including lines 1, 3 and 4 is somewhat correct, but very confusing. And he is WRONG that you MUST log 15 mins for a pretrip after an 8 hour sleeper break. The rules don't say that!

The basic points are THIS:

A 10 hour break (logged in ANY combination of lines 1 and 2 [yes 5 and 5 is legal]) will RESET your entire 11 and 14 hour clocks! (You can spend the whole 10 hours playing video games in the truckstop if you want! But... don't get involved in an accident later!)

A minimum 8 hour sleeper berth break is the ONLY thing that PAUSES the 14 hour clock. (If you sleep for 9 hours you get a 9 hour "pause." If you sleep or break for 10 hours.... you get a full reset! But, if you "sleep" for 7 hours it counts only as a 2 hour break and you still need an 8 hour sleeper break to "split.")

Anything LESS than 8 hours in the sleeper, whether on line 1, 2 or 4, are counted against your 14 hour clock, and you cannot DRIVE past that point.

As for this:

Rev, i do not know where you came up with what you wrote? When you are on line 1, 3 and 4 you are considered to be "on duty", the only way you can stop that 14 hour clock from ticking away is to log it on line 2 for a "minimum of 8 hours, no more than 10"!!!!

It is a mess! Line 1 is NEVER considered "on duty." However, if less than 10 hours, it DOES count against the 14 hour clock. Also, there is NO RULE against logging line 2 for 10 hours or more. What they mean by "no more than 10" is that IF you log 10 hours in the sleeper, it can't/won't be used to combine with a later (or prior) 2 hour break for SPLIT LOGGING, because OBVIOUSLY it is a full 10 hour break and RESETS your clocks instantly!!!

So... in essense, I believe Kreeper AND the REV are saying the same thing. The difference is that Kreeper thinks the Rev has made a mistake (which he hasn't) and Kreeper shows a certain lack of understanding of the rules and/or the inability to express himself correctly.

One final hint. If you log 10 hours OFF for a reset.... log 8 of them in the sleeper OR be ready to produce a motel receipt if you are not at home. Some DOT officers will ask for this. You may not HAVE to produce it, but if you're in an accident the lack of such a receipt will go against you in court.

Have I left anything out? Probably! It's always harder to respond to a post than to just post the rules. Unless, of course, you are Dawn. :wink:

[golfhobo]

Oh yeah, one more thing for those who might be wondering:

You can drive for 5 or so, sleep for ONLY 8, drive the other 6 and then take a full 10 hours off to reset your clocks! In this case, you don't need the other 2 hour break to "split log" as ANYTIME you take a full 10 hour break, it resets your 11 and 14 hour clocks.

[golfhobo]

Madii's wife said:

Actually it was my husband who had gotten the wrong impression on this one. His trainer is using it as a reason to not run legal logs though, but thats a whole other issue.

Please explain the situation further. Who wanted to do what?

Point is... it doesn't matter. 11 hours driving from a 14 hour window leaves 3 hours. If you don't load/unload or fuel or inspect (and log it) during that time, there are 3 hours available for a "nap."

The 14 hour window won't be changed. So, I fail to see the need or occaision to require any illegal logging. :?

[madii'swife]

The trainer is wanting to use "creative" logging to "get around" the 14 hour rule, telling him there's no money running legal (see the TransAm diary thread in What about this trucking company). Exactly what he's trying to get my husband to do on his logs I don't know for sure, I just know its a big bone of contention between the 2 of them right now.

It is my husband who thought that it "paused" the 14 hour clock to take a nap.

[Rev.Vassago]

It is my husband who thought that it "paused" the 14 hour clock to take a nap.

Only if he can go back in time to the "Old Old" regulations.

[golfhobo]

The trainer is wanting to use "creative" logging to "get around" the 14 hour rule, telling him there's no money running legal (see the TransAm diary thread in What about this trucking company). Exactly what he's trying to get my husband to do on his logs I don't know for sure, I just know its a big bone of contention between the 2 of them right now.

It is my husband who thought that it "paused" the 14 hour clock to take a nap.

Please see my post on that thread.

Obviously, your husband is wrong. However, there is very LITTLE way of getting around the 14 hour rule. I don't know what your husband's trainer is trying, unless it is just logging some "break time" that wasn't actually taken to "tighten up" his log (speed averaging) allowing him a little more driving time... but it MUST be within the 14 hour window!

This is somewhat a general practice. MANY WILL BE AGHAST AT THAT! But, it happens. If traffic or whatever, keeps you from averaging a speed close to the limit, and you COULD have gotten say... 650 miles if you ran just a few mph under the limit, and you need 15 to 30 more minutes to get to your destination..... and you're within your 14 hour window..... MANY truckers will say, "well.... I ain't sleepy, so I'm not a danger to anyone. Might as well log a 15 min break back there somewhere (where I probably stopped to pee on the side of the road anyway and stretched my legs,) so I've got the time left to get to my consignee or whatever."

Is it STRICTLY legal? Probably not. But, if we all ran strictly by the book, there would be a lot more trucks parked on the side of the road.... and THAT is a safety issue!

Would you rather see a family of four killed because a sleepy family man drifted off the road for a moment and hit a parked TRUCK? Or would you rather see that truck make it to a Truck Stop and park for the night and the family get home safe after running over ONLY the "growler" that woke him up?

I don't condone sleepy driving, nor driving hours over the limit and fudging your logs to do so. But, when you consider that the DOT can't/doesn't even recognize 14 minutes and 59 seconds as a "period" worth logging, then what's the point in NOT getting to a safe spot to park?

I don't care WHO on here wants to "blast me" for it.... that's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

[Rev.Vassago]

I ain't sayin nothin. :wink:

[golfhobo]

I ain't sayin nothin. :wink:

WELL.... That's a "first!"

They say Discretion IS the better part of Valour! Nice to know you're so valorious!

Seriously, I know Yoopr said this is not a forum for "creative logging," but this IS a forum for new drivers to learn the ropes.

I'm not necessarily encouraging "creative logging." But, I think it is "practical" to give out information on how a driver can satisfy the requirements of the fmcsa regs and the DOT, and still get the job done. And we ALL know that, at times, we are asked to "git 'er done!"

We are often talking about a person's livelihood here. Many new drivers lose their jobs because they can't strike a "median" between what the rules say, and what their dispatcher wants.

Many others don't make a living because they follow the rules to the letter, even tho the letter doesn't allow them to make a living. And usually, neither they NOR the DOT even understands the letter of the law.

Like someone said earlier, "who in their right mind would log 3 hours on line 4 for unloading?" I logged over an hour for that just the other night... because the idiots at the shippers logged times on my BOL that made THEIR books look good! They weren't even the correct times!!! :twisted:

I know for a fact, and we ALL do, that the DOT will not question a 15 min log time for loading. They even allow you to make multiple stops in one town and just flag it and write down the miles inbetween! Then the shipper gives you a BOL that says you started loading at 7 pm (when you first checked in) and finished at midnight! You ALL know that is B.S!!)

The DOT is concerned about miles and hours spent behind the wheel over long distances. They KNOW we get naps at shippers! If your logs LOOK good, you SMELL good! That's a fact!

The DOT is concerned about TWO things! That you are NOT driving after 14 hours (cuz you'll get sleepy by then,) and that you don't drive more miles than you can log in 11 hours during that time! Period!

They assume you are stopping to stretch, get fuel, eat lunch, take a nap or whatever, as long as you haven't driven more miles than you "should" be able to do in 11 hours, and are NOT driving after the 14th hour after coming on duty!

It is YOUR job to make the logbook show that, so they don't have to put you Out Of Service!

I'm NOT condoning backing up your logs so you can drive 22 hours a day, then taking a 3 hour nap, and doing it again! That is illegal, unsafe, and just WRONG!!!

And you "wussies" that drive Solo, and get to shut down for 10 to 16 hours a night, don't even have a right to argue with me! I drive TEAM, and the wheels keep turning! I sleep 6 out of 12 hours in a moving sleeper if I'm LUCKY! [ Just kidding guys! I drive solo now and then and LOVE it!]

Not every trucker gets a cushy job like the Rev has. Some of us have to drive for a living (until we get enough years experience to GET a job like his! )

So... the question is... is the trainer asking your husband to drive ILLEGAL? Or just asking him to "conserve" hours on his 14 hour clock AS WELL as his 70 hour clock?

Even the Rev has made postings here that advocate conserving hours on your 70 while at the shipper... so I'm NOT expecting alot of flack over this posting!

I'm trying to get to the bottom of Madii's wife's husband's (what a mouthful) problem. And MAYBE, help save his job!

I DO NOT drive when I'm sleepy! I DO NOT drive over my 14 hour window! But, I do get my job done! AND I check my equipment thoroughly every time I get behind the wheel! I've driven as little as 290 miles in a day, and I've driven as much as 825!

I've never had a ticket nor an accident.

I don't have as much experience as the REV and many others here. But, I know the rules as well as anyone, and I ain't "skeert" to drive a truck!

Hobo

[madii'swife]

I've been updating over on the TransAm thread, so just wanted to let anybody here know thats where updates will be. Thanks hobo, and go look, its good news this morning (at least I think it is )

[Zandalli Moon]

Holy crap you guys....I felt like I drove 11 hours straight just reading the posts!