[Malaki86]

Wow - I'm thoroughly confused now... LOL

[Malaki86]

Now that I've tried to clear everything I just read from my brain, here's what I would do:

Assuming you own the truck and have a legal right for your wife has the legal right to not only ride as a passenger as well as drive on occasion:

While riding as a passenger, keep a multi-day log showing the start/end date & times with "Off-duty Passenger" in the notes. When she's not in the truck (at home), keep a multi-day log stating this as well.

When she WOULD be driving, she would then create a 'normal' drivers log for that period. Once she's finished driving/on-duty operations, go back to the "Off-duty Passenger". This way, any DOT officer would have a better understanding on what you're doing and it would take very little explanation for them to understand.

Also, as a 'safety', I would have her log an 8hr sleeper berth prior to coming on-duty. This is to cover your asses just in case.

I'm not taking any of this from any regulations, but it makes sense (at least in my pea-brain).

[BanditsCousin]

After reading this thread, I'll chime in what I think would be appropriate.

My first question was if she had a qualification pack w/ drug and alcohol testing, but you've cleared that up.

I'd have her always keep current logs, even if at home for the simplicity of not having to scramble in the event of an audit.

You would be listed as primary operator, and she would be the co-driver. That definition (co-driver) can be murky, but I don't believe in your situation that her driving duties need to be paid.

When she goes on duty for driving purposes, I'd play it safe and log a strict continous 10hr sleeper berth prior to driving (and legitamite). The rest of the time, I'd assume that all time in the passenger seat could be logged off duty as you're driving but would not count towards a 10 hr break should she decide to drive, and that is based on what saftey has told me at my carrier.

As far as her showing up to drive in another state 1000 miles away to drive...that is legal 100%. However, in the event of prying eyes, they would investigate how she got there (airline travel, ground travel via train/car, hitched a ride, etc). I've done this several times with other drivers in a situation where I have flown them back to our home terminal. I've also been flown back to my truck to team with other drivers.

Hopefully, I didn't miss your point and question, musicman.

I do have a teaming question- If a driver wants to do a 34 hr restart, can he/she break a 34 hour sleeper berth? Example- logging 30 min off duty when the primary driver stops for a meal?

[golfhobo]

Musicman said:

I agree with your assertion about the regs being developed primarily around the idea of a solo driver, but in this case, I think you either don’t understand the full point I’m making or you have chosen to ignore it.

I assure you that I understand all your various and numerous points, and am not ignoring any of them. I've been constrained by my new computer and the fact that I can't seem to access the FMCSA site while on the road. Obviously, you didn't find my original opinion satisfying, so... I've done my research and am ready to go.

While my situation might be less common, it certainly isn’t unique, and I believe that it allows me and those who are in the same position as me some special latitude with certain areas of the FMCSA regulations. As president of the LLC whose authority I operate under and as individual owner of the truck I drive, I may have a little more leeway in deciding when I am a driver or a passenger or a co-driver than, say, a company driver.

And I said as much in my original response... though you weren't clear on your ownership situation. I checked the regs pertaining to carriers (which you are) and couldn't find much that wasn't covered under the regs for drivers. From what I can tell, it wouldn't matter if you were J.B. Hunt himself... once you take the wheel, you are just a driver. However.... BEFORE you (or your wife) takes the wheel, you can do much of what you are wanting to do. Most of the points I made had to do with what happened after she started driving, and most of that still stands.

There is nothing in the regs or guidance I know of that would prevent me from relieving myself of all responsibility for the load and equipment and having another driver, my wife, specifically in this case, take over responsibility for everything while I enjoy the ride for a day or two. At this point, I would be a simple passenger along for the ride in my own truck.

All Regulations - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration)

Travel time—(1) When a property-carrying commercial motor vehicle driver at the direction of the motor carrier is
traveling, but not driving or assuming any other responsibility to the carrier, such time must be counted as on-duty time
unless the driver is afforded at least 10 consecutive hours off duty when arriving at destination, in which case he/she
must be considered off duty for the entire period.

There ya go! Like I said.... have her show 10 hours off duty (sleeper berth if you are still driving) before she starts driving at whatever "destination" you determine that she will start driving at. It's really ALL about the rest period just prior to driving. This also shows that her entire "trip" would be OFF DUTY once she has been afforded (and logged) a 10 hr "rest period." Put her in the sleeper 10 hours before she drives. That would be SAFE and LEGAL.

Driver's record of duty status. - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

(c) For each change of duty status (e.g., the place of reporting for work, starting to drive, on-duty not driving and where
released from work), the name of the city, town, or village, with State abbreviation, shall be recorded.

(1) Off duty. Except for time spent resting in a sleeper berth, a continuous line shall be drawn between the appropriate
time markers to record the period(s) of time when the driver is not on duty, is not required to be in readiness to work, or
is not under any responsibility for performing work.

If you (and/or her as the "carrier") have deemed that she is not required to be ready to work, or under any responsibility for work, this sounds like she can log OFF DUTY. Here's what I would do: If you know you are going to need a 34 hr reset, then at the location you start driving for your last 11 hours or whatever, have her create a 7 day log showing off duty up to that location. Then, as she is now on notice that she will need to drive, have her show the next 10 hours in the sleeper. Once she takes the wheel, she will have proof that she had 10 hours "rest" before taking the wheel.

Question 24: If a driver is transported by automobile from the point of a breakdown to a terminal, and then dispatched on
another run, how is the time spent in the automobile entered on the record of duty status? How is the time entered if the
driver goes off-duty once he reaches the terminal?

Guidance: The time spent in the automobile would be on-duty (not driving) if dispatched on another run once he/she reaches
the terminal, and off-duty if he/she is given 8 (should say 10) consecutive hours off-duty upon reaching the terminal.

I don't think they mean to exclude airplanes or even trucks. The point they have continuously made is that, a driver cannot go on line 3 "driving" without an immediately prior "rest period." I didn't bother quoting it, but the regs also say that driving your POV to the point at which you will be dispatched is also OFF DUTY.

I think, as does the one DOT officer I have already mentioned in a previous post, that this is a way for somebody in my uncommon situation to legally circumvent the ridiculous rule you have already referenced regarding being in the passenger seat while the truck is moving. As I have also previously stated, this would allow my wife to be a passenger at will as well, and also avoid the inconvenient mandates about what line she must log on depending on her choice of seat as a “co-driver”.

I agree. I know the regs don't address it accurately, but... I believe the term "co-driver" is contingent on a situation where the truck could NOT have covered the miles without another driver taking over every time you go into the sleeper. If your logs show the standard driving time, and comparable MILES of a solo driver, it would be clear that she was not a co-driver.... up to the point that she becomes one. At that point, she DOES become one, and must show RODS for the last 7 days. However, since she was relieved of all responsibility to perform "work," she can log all that time as OFF DUTY (except for the last 10 if the truck was moving.)

I WISH I could say this also applies to you, and it MIGHT.... but, I'm just not sure. Once she takes the wheel to keep the truck moving, and you have already driven X number of miles and hours, I believe YOU would fall under the definition of a co-driver. The "intent" is clear. So, as I said earlier.... YOU should log all time in the sleeper EXCEPT the 10 hour breaks she has to take. I didn't say you had to BE in the sleeper. Since YOU cannot log part of your reset in the passenger seat, you MUST log all time that the truck is moving in the sleeper. When she stops for her 10, you can log line 1 and do whatever y'all want to do until she starts driving again. Just make sure that your 34 is a continuous combination of off duty and sleeper that coincides with her RODS. I know you want to relieve yourself of all responsibility during that time and be a "rider," but I don't think you can get away with it. That would be the one thing that would trip you up at a scalehouse. FWIW.... I think you SHOULD be able to as long as YOU show the 10 hour rest period before driving again. But, I think you have already established yourself as the "driver" for the dispatched load, and the regs do not allow a "driver" to work 70 hours without a "defined" 34 hr restart.

The only caveat the DOT officer had about this arrangement was that while she wouldn’t personally have an issue with it, other officers might and that it might help my cause with a skeptical officer if we were to never both drive in the same day. It is her opinion that avoiding doing so would add weight to my assertion that we are each solo drivers and not a team.

I don't think it matters whether or not you swap days. As a solo driver, you cannot show a 10 hr break and then start driving again 600 miles down the road. THAT is prima facia evidence of a "team operation" and evidence that you are "co-drivers." By the same token, I don't see any reg saying that you can't take a "rolling reset" as long as SHE is the only driver during that 34 hours AND you show sleeper when the truck is moving, and off duty when it is not.

You would like to relieve yourself of all duties/responsibilities and be a "rider" during that time, but once you start driving again... you are subject to all HOS regs concerning a driver, and right now they say you can't be in the passernger seat and be off duty (during your last 7 days.)

Now, to further confuse the issue... Much of this depends on the definition of ON DUTY as the REV and I argued about ad infinitum. I believe you read those threads on alcohol and OTR??

Definitions. - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

On duty time means all time from the time a driver begins to work or is required to be in readiness to work until the time
the driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work. On duty time shall include:

(1) All time at a plant, terminal, facility, or other property of a motor carrier or shipper, or on any public property, waiting to be dispatched, unless the driver has been relieved from duty by the motor Carrier;
(2) All time inspecting, servicing, or conditioning any commercial motor vehicle at any time;
(3) All driving time as defined in the term driving time;
(4) All time, other than driving time, in or upon any commercial motor vehicle except time spent resting in a sleeper berth;

The REV contends that #4 intends that even when OFF DUTY, you are ON DUTY if you are in/on the truck. I contend that the opening sentence differentiates between being on or off duty, and the list applies ONLY to activities or status when ON DUTY. IF you have been relieved from work, and all responsibilities, then the definitions of on duty do not apply. If I'm at home for a restart and I choose to drive up to the yard and get in my truck to retrieve some stuff I left in there, I am not "in readiness to work," have not BEGUN to work, and am still in a state of being relieved from work.

My opinion is bolstered by the fact that the regs allow you to drive an "unladen" CMV to walmart while you are off duty and log it as line 1. You are obviously ON the truck, and in fact are driving it. But, because you have been relieved of duty... it doesn't qualify as anything on the list of "on duty" activities/definitions.

However, the guidance for this reg mentions "short distances." That is why I don't believe you can consider yourself OFF DUTY while the truck is making "paid miles."

As to some other comments made by other posters:

I don't believe your wife needs to keep logs for months of off duty time. WHEN she drives, she needs to have the last 7 days (probably on one log sheet) AND show the rest period just before driving. The "retention" reg for 6 months of logs does not say it requires every day of the last six months. It says you must retain ANY actual logs of driving time during the last six months.

It doesn't matter if she gets PAID for the time she drives. The regs say you must log any time "worked" whether paid or not.

Yes, B.C.... you can interrupt a 34 hr restart as often, and for as long, as you wish... as long as it is only for line 1 time (and the truck is not moving.) A restart must be an "uninterrupted" COMBINATION of line 1 and 2 for 34 hours.

Now... I MAY not have answered your question to your satisfaction, but... I've done the best I can with the confusing mess of regs that we have to deal with. The regs don't clearly define a co-driver, because they consider us all as DRIVERS when it comes to HOS, etc. Being the owner of a truck (or company) does not relieve you of the requirements for rest prior to driving, nor the 70 hour rule. However, you might try looking at your options under the 70 hour rule... getting some hours back.... that might preclude you actually NEEDING a 34 hr reset.

[Musicman]

Originally Posted by golfhobo

Now... I MAY not have answered your question to your satisfaction, but... I've done the best I can with the confusing mess of regs that we have to deal with.

As usual, Hobo, you did a wonderful job of pointing out the ridiculousness of the regs. You however, did neglect to mention and cover Line 5 in your dissertation.

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by Musicman

As usual, Hobo, you did a wonderful job of pointing out the ridiculousness of the regs. You however, did neglect to mention and cover Line 5 in your dissertation.

What? I get NO CREDIT for answering your questions? Have I failed again? :lol:

Or, is it that you just don't LIKE my answers? I would agree that the regs are confusing, cumbersome and even sometimes contradictory at first blush. But, I don't thnk they are totally "ridiculous." When you interpret them with the understanding that their underlying purpose is to ensure that you are rested before and while driving... it is not so hard to understand them. If they say you can log off duty while making a short run to the beer store, after being relieved of duty for the day, then they can't mean that ALL time at the controls, or driving, or ON THE TRUCK, must be logged as ON DUTY. If they say you can transport alcohol in the truck during these short trips, (and the beer is not on the manifest,) then... alcohol is not ALWAYS prohibited on a CMV. The difference is the "in operation - in interstate commerce" clause. Line 4 of the "On Duty" definition cannot apply at all times if you can drive short distances (or an unladen CMV) without being subject to line 3 of the same definiton. Definition 3 is dependent on def 1. [You still WITH me?]

Now... can your wife drink beer in the passenger seat while you drive and she is legally "off duty" prior to being "in readiness to work?" NO! Because it's not on the manifest and the vehicle is "in operation in interstate commerce." But, once you are "relieved of duty" for the day, you can be IN or ON the truck (defintion 4,) AT the controls and driving (definiton 3,) and be transporting, or in possession of, alcohol (found in the guidance) without being in violation of FMCSA regs.

WHY??? Because you are on LINE 5! :lol2:

Now... does THAT cover all the bases? :moon::clap:


On a side note, from a personal perspective: I deliver FedEx ground freight from terminal to terminal. When I get to one at say... 7 p.m., and am told to check with them at 7 in the morning, I consider myself relieved of duty per definition 1 of the on duty reg. Am I waiting to be dispatched... on company property... yes. But, not really... since they've given me a time to be "in readiness" to work. I bobtail to get dinner. I sit at the controls if I want to. I can't "service" my truck... but, I can do pretty much whatever I want and consider it OFF DUTY. I am NOT restricted to my sleeper! But, once we are dispatched and under a load... I am subject to every one of the definitons of the ON DUTY reg... regardless of which of us is driving.

The REV is wrong.... I am right! Case closed. :lol2: